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Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

Hoplite said:
Im arguin' that there's better ways to fight a war against an enemy like Hamas and Hezbollah than killing innocent people
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Not when the people you're fighting deliberatly hise among those inoocent people.

I dont contend that the IDF intentionally targeted civilians, I contend that they didnt stop their soldiers from doing so...
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Given that the nature of the opponent necessitates that civilians will die, there's no way to stop cvilians from dying.

Why havent you been discussing how terrible the terrorists are for hiding among innocent people they know will get killed?
 
Goobieman said:
Not when the people you're fighting deliberatly hise among those inoocent people.
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So our solution is to shoot down anything that moves?

Given that the nature of the opponent necessitates that civilians will die, there's no way to stop cvilians from dying.
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Bull****, there is no cause, NONE, which requires murder like that.

Why havent you been discussing how terrible the terrorists are for hiding among innocent people they know will get killed?
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Because I assumed you were intelligent enough to figure out that I dont condone that and my support is with the Palestinian people, not Hamas or Hezbollah.
 
Apocalypse said:
And?
Are hundreds of thousands not dying in Afghanistan and Iraq?
And again, IDF figures point at 295 deaths.
I can only point you to re-read the phrase you were commenting on with a statement like this.
When militants launch attacks from an area, it's a military zone.
Do you somehow pretend that Israelis have no right to self defense as long as their attackers do this from a complex of buildings?
Because that would expose your argument's biggest weakness.
Unarmed civilians were not targeted.
Militants were.
I do not think I need to bring proof to point at the obvious, but yeah why not.
Lebanon elite turns out to celebrate terrorist Samir Kuntar's engagement - Haaretz - Israel News
None of the above were targeted.
Mistakes happen all the time, especially during wars on terrorist organizations that hide in civilian areas.
Read on NATO's operations for a better understanding, the understanding that you're obviously lacking when you blame the IDF with the targeting of civilians without being able to explain the dropping of leaflets, the phoning to homes and the 3 hours of humanitarian time.
295 according to IDF figures, and it happens, quite logically, when you are engaging in a war with an organization hiding in a dense civilian populated area.
Then it only seems to you so, as this is purely an act of self-defense and is completely legitimate.
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Haven't you realized how some people will continue to demonize Israel no matter how much the actual facts of the matter are against them? Talk about brick walls.
 
Israel needs to flat open a can of whoop-ass and be done with it.

There's my simple-minded post for the day. But it's true.
 
ludahai said:
Haven't you realized how some people will continue to demonize Israel no matter how much the actual facts of the matter are against them? Talk about brick walls.
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Maybe I'm just not as "with it" as to be ok with shooting unarmed people but I fail to see that Cast Lead was any sort of success. Has Hamas surrendered? Has Hamas stopped firing rockets? Have they stopped attacking Israel?

The Israelis did the same thing in Gaza that we did in Vietnam. We failed then and Israel failed this time.

I'm also none to thrilled with Israel trying to sneak the attack in as our elections were coming to a head, knowing probably that most Americans wouldnt be paying attention and that a president who would turn a blind eye to anything that happened would still be in office but so far along that he wouldnt care what happened.
 
ludahai said:
Haven't you realized how some people will continue to demonize Israel no matter how much the actual facts of the matter are against them? Talk about brick walls.
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But they can post youtube videos, Ludahai.

What more do they need?
 
ludahai said:
His point was that while the Israeli government allows Arabs to live and build in Israel-proper, the international community has a fit every time the Israelis so much as repair a house in the West Bank or East Jerusalem.
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I know what his point is, while you completely disregarded mine. The Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, that is not that difficult to comprehend.
 
Gardener said:
Those who support Juden free territories sure are.
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Do you have anything substantial to add besides idiotic one-line quips that only shows your inadequacy as a debater?
 
Hoplite said:
Maybe I'm just not as "with it" as to be ok with shooting unarmed people but I fail to see that Cast Lead was any sort of success. Has Hamas surrendered? Has Hamas stopped firing rockets? Have they stopped attacking Israel?
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As several others have point out, the IDF does not aim for unarmed people. It goes after combatants who are using unarmed people as human shields.

The Israelis did the same thing in Gaza that we did in Vietnam. We failed then and Israel failed this time.
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Not the same. Israel was only there for a very limited period of time. It failed due to pressure from the international community which was against Israel using force to protect itself from the scum in Gaza.

I'm also none to thrilled with Israel trying to sneak the attack in as our elections were coming to a head, knowing probably that most Americans wouldnt be paying attention and that a president who would turn a blind eye to anything that happened would still be in office but so far along that he wouldnt care what happened.
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Of course -- another American believing the rest of the world operates on US election cycles. If anything, they MAY have done it knowing a Republican president would not be so quick to condemn Israel's legal and legitimate use of force as a Democratic president would be.
 
Degreez said:
I know what his point is, while you completely disregarded mine. The Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, that is not that difficult to comprehend.
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So is launching rockets into Israeli civilian areas. So is using suicide bombers to terrorize Israeli civilians. Israel has legitimate defense needs. If the international community is so concerned about everyone following their own interpretations of international law, why don't they put boots on the ground and end Israel's need to take aggressive actions to ensure its security.
 
ludahai said:
As several others have point out, the IDF does not aim for unarmed people. It goes after combatants who are using unarmed people as human shields.
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Again, I dont see that that legitimizes shooting civilians.

Not the same. Israel was only there for a very limited period of time. It failed due to pressure from the international community which was against Israel using force to protect itself from the scum in Gaza.
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Did the operation at least work? Has Hamas stopped?

Of course -- another American believing the rest of the world operates on US election cycles. If anything, they MAY have done it knowing a Republican president would not be so quick to condemn Israel's legal and legitimate use of force as a Democratic president would be.
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Israel receives boatloads of backing from the US, if they were to risk carrying on this attack while a president in office wouldnt support them, they know they'd lose support both politically and possibly militarily. The Israelis know that Bush would have turned a blind eye to what was going on
 
ludahai said:
So is launching rockets into Israeli civilian areas. So is using suicide bombers to terrorize Israeli civilians. Israel has legitimate defense needs. If the international community is so concerned about everyone following their own interpretations of international law, why don't they put boots on the ground and end Israel's need to take aggressive actions to ensure its security.
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:spin:

What is exactly does this have to do with illegal settlements?

Citing international law for defense and security reasons has little to do with Israel following the obligations of controlling occupied territory.

And the last thing Israel wants is some independent force on its soil preventing them from using unproportional force.
 
Hoplite said:
Again, I dont see that that legitimizes shooting civilians.
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The IDF is NOT deliberatly targeting civilians.

Did the operation at least work? Has Hamas stopped?
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It may have worked had the Israelis been allowed to bring necessary and sufficient force for a prolonged period without pressure from the international community.

Israel receives boatloads of backing from the US, if they were to risk carrying on this attack while a president in office wouldnt support them, they know they'd lose support both politically and possibly militarily. The Israelis know that Bush would have turned a blind eye to what was going on
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Bush SHOULD turn a blind eye and so should Obama because the Israelis have the right to protect its national boundaries from the terrorist government in Gaza.
 
ludahai said:
The IDF is NOT deliberatly targeting civilians.
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For the billionth time, I never claimed they were.

It may have worked had the Israelis been allowed to bring necessary and sufficient force for a prolonged period without pressure from the international community.
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200+ combatants dead did NOTHING?

Bush SHOULD turn a blind eye and so should Obama because the Israelis have the right to protect its national boundaries from the terrorist government in Gaza.
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Except that that protection comes off our dime. The US pours billions into Israel's military. Without US backing, Israel would probably be flattened in a month.
 
Hoplite said:
Again, I dont see that that legitimizes shooting civilians.
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It doesn't legitimize shooting civilians, and civilians were not being shot at.

Terrorists were being shot at as a practice of the undeniable right to self defense of the Israeli citizens living in Southern Israel.
That the Hamas terrorists have chosen to risk their own civilians by launching rockets from their bedrooms is tragic and disgusting, but unfortunately that's an integral part of fighting terrorism in hostile lands these days, and we can only try and minimize the casualties by dropping leaflets and phoning homes, as Israel did.(=Fact)

So to sum that up, civilians were not shot at, they were standing next to terrorists who were legitimately shot at.
Did the operation at least work? Has Hamas stopped?
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Yes.
Objective fulfilled, and there has been the greatest calm in decades around southern Israel in the recent months.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Just because this is not in the ME forums does not mean that you can be uncivil and constantly attack each other. Stick to the topic and cease with the personal attacks.
 
Hoplite said:
Originally Posted by Goobieman
Not when the people you're fighting deliberatly hise among those inoocent people.
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So our solution is to shoot down anything that moves?
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You deliberately miss the point.
By hiding among civilians, the terrorists enrure that civilians will die, in large numbers. This is an intentional act by the terrorists so that pro-terrorist anti-Israeli people such as yourself can try to villity the Israelis for having the nerve to defend themselves.
Quote:
Given that the nature of the opponent necessitates that civilians will die, there's no way to stop cvilians from dying.
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Bull****, there is no cause, NONE, which requires murder like that.
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Collateral damage is an unavoiable horror of war, especially when one side deliberatly puts civilians in harms way. The murderers here are the terrorists, not those that target the terrorists.
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Why havent you been discussing how terrible the terrorists are for hiding among innocent people they know will get killed?
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Because I assumed you were intelligent enough to figure out that I dont condone that and my support is with the Palestinian people, not Hamas or Hezbollah.
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You DO condine that in that you have yet to admit that the terrorists are at fault for all the civilian deaths or villify them for it.
Instead, you cling to the idea that though the terrorists are the cause for the civilian deaths, the Israelis are to blame for it.
 
Hoplite said:
Maybe I'm just not as "with it" as to be ok with shooting unarmed people...
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Palestinian civilians are dying in droves at the hands of the IDF for no reason other than the terrorists hide among said civilians, thereby forcing the Israelis to attack them while they do so.

Palestinians hide behind their children, and then wonder why their children die.
 
Degreez said:
I know what his point is, while you completely disregarded mine. The Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, that is not that difficult to comprehend.
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What tenet or particular part of 'international law' forbids settling land that you won in a war you did not start - especially once the state that lost the land officially ceded it away?

I ask because there are a great number of Germans that would like to see the whole of Prussia restored.
 
Apocalypse said:
It doesn't legitimize shooting civilians, and civilians were not being shot at.
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So a thousand people just died from heart failure?

Terrorists were being shot at as a practice of the undeniable right to self defense of the Israeli citizens living in Southern Israel.
That the Hamas terrorists have chosen to risk their own civilians by launching rockets from their bedrooms is tragic and disgusting, but unfortunately that's an integral part of fighting terrorism in hostile lands these days, and we can only try and minimize the casualties by dropping leaflets and phoning homes, as Israel did.(=Fact)
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Israel has decades of experience with terrorism, enough to know that THIS is not how you fight an enemy like Hamas.

So to sum that up, civilians were not shot at, they were standing next to terrorists who were legitimately shot at.
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Then why did the civilians get hit instead?

Keep in mind, some 250 actual Hamas fighters died in the fighting, over a thousand civilians died. So even if each Hamas fighter was using two human shields, you're still short.

Objective fulfilled, and there has been the greatest calm in decades around southern Israel in the recent months.
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Really?

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2009]List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008]List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

That doesnt seem like "great calm", that seems more like "business as usual."
 
Hoplite said:
Then why did the civilians get hit instead?
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Instead?
Dont you mean 'at the same time as the terrorists that were the targets of the IDF attacks'?
THAT answer should be obvious.
 
Hoplite said:
So a thousand people just died from heart failure?
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I said:
"civilians were not shot at, they were standing next to terrorists who were legitimately shot at."

You didn't miss it, so the reason for the above statement of yours is unknown to me.
Israel has decades of experience with terrorism, enough to know that THIS is not how you fight an enemy like Hamas.
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That's exactly how you maintain the defense of your civilians.
By removing the terrroists' ability to do them harm, if only for a temporary period.
Then why did the civilians get hit instead?
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What do you mean, instead?
Terrorists were killed by the hundreds.
Keep in mind, some 250 actual Hamas fighters died in the fighting, over a thousand civilians died. So even if each Hamas fighter was using two human shields, you're still short.
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Why would I keep in mind something that is not true?

The highest the figures go reach around 950 dead civilians and more than 300 dead combatants.
That's not really over a thousand civilians.
The IDF's figures, the entity with the top capabilities to gather intelligence from the Gaza Strip in the entire world, places the figures at 295 dead civilians and over 900 dead combatants.

I doubt the variety of organizations that have taken the job of collecting the required intelligence were able to separate a terrorist from a civilian when they're both wearing civilian clothes.
Really?

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That doesnt seem like "great calm", that seems more like "business as usual."
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Actually it seems like a great calm to me.
Around 210 rockets in 3rd of December 2008-26th of December 2008, and 5 rockets in the entire of December 2009.

210 sure do seem to be more than 5.
 
Goobieman said:
Instead?
Dont you mean 'at the same time as the terrorists that were the targets of the IDF attacks'?
THAT answer should be obvious.
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So for every bullet that killed a Hamas fighter, that same bullet killed FOUR civilians as well?
 
Hoplite said:
So for every bullet that killed a Hamas fighter, that same bullet killed FOUR civilians as well?
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This is simple nonsense on your part; it illustrates a willful attempt to misunderstand the points put to you for the sole purpose of not having to admit that the terrorists, not the Israelis, are responsible for the 'murder' of the 'innocent' civllians in Gaza.

-Every- civilian that died while a terrorist hid among them was 'murdered' by the terrorists, not the Israelis.
 
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