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Arizona: The Surveillance State

Goyboy

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Arizona: The Surveillance State
For years Arizona has been known as the “sunset state,” but lately some residents simply call it the “surveillance state.”

“They track us everywhere we go,” says Phoenix resident Shawn Dow. “It’s unbelievable. I can’t go anywhere and not have a camera tracking me.”

Dow is now trying to change all that with a ballot initiative this November that would ban all ticket cameras in Arizona.

“I’m tired of being constantly watched,” he said. We’re all being tracked like cattle.”

In 2007, Arizona became the first state in the country to install ticket cameras state-wide, meaning there are cameras on most state highways; there are cameras at many intersections; and there are camera-vans videotaping on side streets.

The owner of any car caught going over the speed limit or running a red light receives a ticket by mail.
Do you think that the motorists complaining about the cameras are motorists who obey traffic laws, or are they disgruntled people who want to get away with violating traffic laws?
 
As long as the cameras are only monitoring the roads and speed limits, and not what's happening off the roads or in people's cars (which are technically private property and are secure from unreasonable search and seizure), then I don't see the problem.

You shouldn't be speeding or running red lights and if you're not then you have nothing to worry about.
 
You shouldn't be speeding or running red lights and if you're not then you have nothing to worry about.


That is the same logic that is given by advocates of various surveillance provisions included in the Patriot Act.

"If you aren't engaging in terrorist activities then you have nothing to worry about."

What a load of crap. These cameras are one big slippery slope and it needs to be stopped immediately before we turn in to Great Britain.

Question for you.. Lets say one of these traffic light cameras sees inside your car as you are committing a crime unrelated to traffic, say killing your dog. Under your logic, this film should be inadmissible in court because they violated your private property and the incident wasn't traffic related?

It begins with traffic cameras and ends with retinal or other biometric scans as you're walking down the street.

But hey, if you are a law abiding citizen (decent movie) than you have no reason to care that law enforcement/government can track your movements unrestricted.
 
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It's this same logic that is given by advocates of various surveillance measures in the Patriot Act.

I'm aware of the implications and I am usually the first one to attack people who say "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about", and I'm also a big privacy advocate. But my point is... this is about traffic violations in public spaces. If the cameras are just monitoring the roads and are designed to take pictures when triggered by a speeding vehicle - which, to my knowledge, is how most photo radar technology works - then they aren't actively monitoring public movement 24/7 like London style cameras.

Question for you.. Lets say one of these traffic light cameras sees inside your car as you are committing a crime unrelated to traffic, say killing your dog. Under your logic, this film should be inadmissable in court because they violated your private property and the incident wasn't traffic related?

Yes, that's correct. The government can't put cameras in your home and so cameras monitoring speeding vehicles should not be peering into those vehicles. That's the job of police and due process needs to be followed. My original stipulation about the nature of the cameras still stands. IF they are just monitoring speeds and nothing else then I support their existence. Driving is a privilege not a right.

It begins with traffic cameras and ends with retinal or other biometric scans as your walking down the street.

Well based on the reactionary approach of people in Arizona to photo radar, I doubt it would ever get to those levels.

But hey, if you are a law abiding citizen (decent movie) than you have no reason to care that law enforcement/government can track your movements unrestricted.

I think you are misquoting me. I am only in favor of the cameras within the confines of certain purposes, as I already mentioned. I'm not in favor of wanton spying on citizens.
 
Arizona: The Surveillance State

Do you think that the motorists complaining about the cameras are motorists who obey traffic laws, or are they disgruntled people who want to get away with violating traffic laws?

I've never been caught by them, but I hate them. I don't like the cameras just monitoring things. And I think that if I do something wrong and the State wants to extract money from me for it (such as issuing a ticket), then they can chase me down in a cop car, pull me over, and issue me the damned ticket. Otherwise, keep eating the donuts and lose out on the ticket.
 
I live in Arizona. Yes in the metro phoenix area there are a bunch of cameras on the highway. So of the other highways and few towns also have photo radar. There are signs giving plenty of warning you are approuching a photo enforcement zone. The trigger is you have to be going 11mph over the speed limit. That triggers the camera to take a photo. If your under that the camera doesn't do anything. The metro area also has photo cameras at certain intersection to catch red light runners. ADOT has a few freeway cameras to monitor traffic flow. They are not detailed enough to read plates or indentify people

My experience is going 11mph over the posted speed limit in the conjested areas is way to high. You should get a ticket anyway. The red light cameras are actived my sensors when you run the light. Experiencing some of the drivers in the valley, they also should get a ticket for running a light.

Basically, drive within the law and you have no problem with the cameras. If I was speeding due to an emergency. I would be willing to go to court and state my case.
 
The complaining parties are a bunch of whiners who think they are above the law. I have seen some of the red light runner videos and it makes it clear who was at fault. Recently they nailed some idiot on a motorcycle who had shown up in dozens of videos on the freeway. These people are risking the lives of others. Simple as that....
 
The complaining parties are a bunch of whiners who think they are above the law. I have seen some of the red light runner videos and it makes it clear who was at fault. Recently they nailed some idiot on a motorcycle who had shown up in dozens of videos on the freeway. These people are risking the lives of others. Simple as that....

And a camera does nothing to prevent that. Perhaps a cop pulling them over will. But the camera is only going to send a ticket their way. It's nothing more than revenue generation for the State, not any form of behavioral modification.
 
And a camera does nothing to prevent that. Perhaps a cop pulling them over will. But the camera is only going to send a ticket their way. It's nothing more than revenue generation for the State, not any form of behavioral modification.

Whether it is the camera or the cop, nothing will stop ALL the jerks who drive like they own the road. But BOTH help get the guilty off the road, if only temporarily.
Your attitude might change when it is you nailed by a red light runner, and there are no human witnesses to verify that it is the other guy's fault.
 
Whether it is the camera or the cop, nothing will stop ALL the jerks who drive like they own the road. But BOTH help get the guilty off the road, if only temporarily.

The cop pulling someone over stops that person's reckless driving right there. The ticket is less apt to cause behavioral changes and are only instituted primarily as a fundraiser for the state.

Your attitude might change when it is you nailed by a red light runner, and there are no human witnesses to verify that it is the other guy's fault.

It's a risk we all take. I've driven many places without cameras, hasn't made me afraid to enter the intersection. Hell, CO is built upon red light runners, people around here seem to have the colors mixed up. But I still go on the road, on my motorcycle without a helmet. It's a risk, life is a risk. I want to be free and I want responsible government and I will take all consequences which come from that. If the State wants to give me a ticket, they can just go ahead and chase me down first.
 
The cop pulling someone over stops that person's reckless driving right there. The ticket is less apt to cause behavioral changes and are only instituted primarily as a fundraiser for the state.



It's a risk we all take. I've driven many places without cameras, hasn't made me afraid to enter the intersection. Hell, CO is built upon red light runners, people around here seem to have the colors mixed up. But I still go on the road, on my motorcycle without a helmet. It's a risk, life is a risk. I want to be free and I want responsible government and I will take all consequences which come from that. If the State wants to give me a ticket, they can just go ahead and chase me down first.[/QUOTE]

Me, me, me.....well, life would be less risky with less idiots on the roads. And if it takes cameras, so be it. I drive safely, get in the middle lane and stay there, keeping pace with existing traffic. The idiots who use the freeways as their personal racetrack need to be taken off the roads. Tickets are not enough, suspension of license should be applied on the second offense in a 3 year perios.
Come on down to the Phoenix area, you will be safe here. The cameras may catch you, but the cops don't send tickets out of state.:2razz:
 
Arizona: The Surveillance State

Do you think that the motorists complaining about the cameras are motorists who obey traffic laws, or are they disgruntled people who want to get away with violating traffic laws?

I am against cameras in public spaces and areas.If these counties and towns want to to rake in revenue from people speeding and traffic revenue its called put police/highway patrol out there to catch people speeding and running red lights. Someone being pulled over and having ten-twenty minutes or more of their time taken away plus everybody and their mom staring at them as they drive by will have more of an impact than someone getting a ticket in the mail for speeding or running a red light. I could care less if the cameras will only be used to catch traffic violators its that slippery slope that they may decide to use to the cameras for other purposes.
 
Me, me, me.....well, life would be less risky with less idiots on the roads. And if it takes cameras, so be it. I drive safely, get in the middle lane and stay there, keeping pace with existing traffic. The idiots who use the freeways as their personal racetrack need to be taken off the roads. Tickets are not enough, suspension of license should be applied on the second offense in a 3 year perios.
Come on down to the Phoenix area, you will be safe here. The cameras may catch you, but the cops don't send tickets out of state.:2razz:

you, you, you.....well life would be less risky with less idiots. End statement. But I can't run around shooting idiots all day. First off, it's illegal, secondly there's a lot. So we either live with it, or we authorize government to grow beyond its bounds. There's always going to be idiots, they're called business and psychology majors. But just because there are idiots doesn't mean I want the government to act inappropriately. Are there no idiots now on AZ roads? Doubtful. The camera doesn't prevent crap. The ticket received weeks after the event doesn't prevent crap. It's only money generation and that's all. And that's not a good enough excuse to justify the new powers.

As I said, if they want to give me a ticket then they can do their damned jobs and chase me down and give it to me. Otherwise, they can piss off.
 
- I have noticed the photo radar cameras tend to keep speeds down to the legal limit along the freeways where they are placed.
- IMO, having police out patroling the freeways is better than the cameras.
- In one small town in Arizona (Star Valley) they placed cameras at both end of the town because people were constanly speeding through. It has managed to reduce speeds to within the legal limits. Star Valley (population less than 2,000) does not have nor can they afford to have what few law enforcement tied up on traffic duties all day. While you can say it generates revenue. It also lets police take care of more critical calls.
- bottom line, drive responsibly and within the limits. Photo radar is a non issue.

I will agree that I would not like to see cameras placed everywhere that are there for the soul purpose of survailance. There is a place for them in certain areas (jail, etc)
 
Me, me, me.....well, life would be less risky with less idiots on the roads. And if it takes cameras, so be it. I drive safely, get in the middle lane and stay there, keeping pace with existing traffic. The idiots who use the freeways as their personal racetrack need to be taken off the roads. Tickets are not enough, suspension of license should be applied on the second offense in a 3 year perios.
Come on down to the Phoenix area, you will be safe here. The cameras may catch you, but the cops don't send tickets out of state.:2razz:

Even if we removed a lot of the "bad" drivers it wouldn't matter because most bad drivers slow down when a squad car is visible. The thing is that many times a police officer will enforce the law when the suspect applies his criteria. Which is a problem with the police.

Also, people using the freeway as their racetrack isn't a problem. You see a car going faster than you and you are in the left lane move to the side and let that car past you which is the point of the left lane anyways. Also, the biggest problem on the freeway are slow drivers who slow down the lanes. Why? Because no one wants to go faster than the guy next to him so that is why they clog the lanes and traffic. Those drivers are dangerous.
 
- I have noticed the photo radar cameras tend to keep speeds down to the legal limit along the freeways where they are placed.
- IMO, having police out patroling the freeways is better than the cameras.
- In one small town in Arizona (Star Valley) they placed cameras at both end of the town because people were constanly speeding through. It has managed to reduce speeds to within the legal limits. Star Valley (population less than 2,000) does not have nor can they afford to have what few law enforcement tied up on traffic duties all day. While you can say it generates revenue. It also lets police take care of more critical calls.
- bottom line, drive responsibly and within the limits. Photo radar is a non issue.

I will agree that I would not like to see cameras placed everywhere that are there for the soul purpose of survailance. There is a place for them in certain areas (jail, etc)

I don't have to worry. 16 years of driving I've had 1 speeding ticket and 1 accident and it wasn't my fault (girl rear-ended an SUV behind me, which then rear-ended me...now that was an energetic collision!). I don't like them on principle though. I'd much rather the cop have to chase me down, the State can earn their bread.
 
It's funny how all the cameras around here point down into the vehicles and not out at the traffic they are SUPPOSED to be monitoring!
 
The cop pulling someone over stops that person's reckless driving right there. The ticket is less apt to cause behavioral changes and are only instituted primarily as a fundraiser for the state.

I have to agree with you on this one. The purpose of public safety and the punative damages levied against one who breaches public safety codes in the form of fines is a measure to stop the behavior that puts everyone else at risk. A large part of this deterrence, in addition to the fine, is to face the accusing authority (the public safety officer) at the time of the offending action, not weeks later when the ticket shows up in the mail along with a picture. Use of cameras to do the jobs of officers only serves to seperate the citizen from his government with another layer of anonymity in government, making it less likely that the citizen will even be affected by the impact of his behavior on a personal level. More likely, it will serve to make the citizen more desensitized to the personal impact of his behavior because he was treated in such an impersonal way. Public safety issues should be addressed as public safety issues and not used by the state as a way of levying extra taxes against citizens.
 
Arizona: The Surveillance State

Do you think that the motorists complaining about the cameras are motorists who obey traffic laws, or are they disgruntled people who want to get away with violating traffic laws?

Maybe its just as they said. They dont want to be monitored constantly.
 
I'm aware of the implications and I am usually the first one to attack people who say "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about", and I'm also a big privacy advocate. But my point is... this is about traffic violations in public spaces. If the cameras are just monitoring the roads and are designed to take pictures when triggered by a speeding vehicle - which, to my knowledge, is how most photo radar technology works - then they aren't actively monitoring public movement 24/7 like London style cameras.

the cameras here run 24/7 and then snap when triggeed by a speeder, that is how they caught the guy who shot and killed an operator a few months ago.

Yes, that's correct. The government can't put cameras in your home and so cameras monitoring speeding vehicles should not be peering into those vehicles. That's the job of police and due process needs to be followed. My original stipulation about the nature of the cameras still stands. IF they are just monitoring speeds and nothing else then I support their existence. Driving is a privilege not a right.



Well based on the reactionary approach of people in Arizona to photo radar, I doubt it would ever get to those levels.


I think you are right on this

I think you are misquoting me. I am only in favor of the cameras within the confines of certain purposes, as I already mentioned. I'm not in favor of wanton spying on citizens.

..........................
 
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I live in Arizona. Yes in the metro phoenix area there are a bunch of cameras on the highway. So of the other highways and few towns also have photo radar. There are signs giving plenty of warning you are approuching a photo enforcement zone. The trigger is you have to be going 11mph over the speed limit. That triggers the camera to take a photo. If your under that the camera doesn't do anything. The metro area also has photo cameras at certain intersection to catch red light runners. ADOT has a few freeway cameras to monitor traffic flow. They are not detailed enough to read plates or indentify people

My experience is going 11mph over the posted speed limit in the conjested areas is way to high. You should get a ticket anyway. The red light cameras are actived my sensors when you run the light. Experiencing some of the drivers in the valley, they also should get a ticket for running a light.



Basically, drive within the law and you have no problem with the cameras. If I was speeding due to an emergency. I would be willing to go to court and state my case.


The cameras have been set to 9 miles an hour over now, I guess they weren't getting enough money with over 3/4 of the ticketed people not paying the fines.
 
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The cameras have been set to 9 miles an hour over now, I guess they weren't getting enough money with over 3/4 of the ticketed people not paying the fines.

Good to know. Doesn't bother me. I drive at or just a hair over the posted limit within these areas.
 
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