The president has absolutely nothing to do with interest rates, anyway.
I suppose you blamed the high gas prices on Carter, too.:roll:
It's hard to debate ignorance.
You need to take your liberal blinders off and read some economics and history. I don't have time to take you by the hand and teach you basics of how the Federal Reserve, the president, and the economy are intertwined. You actually believe that the Fed Chairman is not influenced by the president that appointed him and the Fed's Board of Governors???
There's a word for that.... naivete
:2wave:
That's the first correct thing you've said....
did you check out my link? yes, they did loan at rates lower than prime.....the prime rate is not necessarily what banks have to pay for money. see, a bank has deposits, which can fund a lot of their loans at a much lower cost.You actually think that banks loaned money for mortgages at a lower interest rate than they had to pay for it????
Please tell me you are not serious. Banks don't typically loan money at a loss, at least not in the real world.
did you check out my link? yes, they did loan at rates lower than prime.....the prime rate is not necessarily what banks have to pay for money. see, a bank has deposits, which can fund a lot of their loans at a much lower cost.
see how that works?
Why bother? He doesn't have a clue.
USA, you don't do much better here on this thread than you do on the Obama State of the Union thread or any other. Fact is during the Carter years we had a high period of inflation and that drove up interest rates to try and slow down inflation. the Carter economic plan was a disaster and the interest rates hurt a lot of Americans.
You are right that the President does not set interest rates but his economic policy affects the Fed and the Fed then reacts with interest rate moves. We had a misery index of high interest and high inflation plus rising unemployment. Carter is recognized as one of our worst Presidents and will soon be joined by Obama.
Look at the numbers.
Volcker set interest rates high to combat the out of control inflation that Carter inherited from the previous administrations. High gas prices were what fueled inflation and the first Arab oil embargo was during Nixons term.
It amazes me how some people can ignore historical records and depend on spin to formulate their opinions.
Nixon, Ford and Carter all experienced out of control inflation. It was so bad under Nixon he implemented The Wage and Price freeze that made things worse. You just seem to ignore that fact of history.
Inflation
969 4.4 4.7 5.2 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.4 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 6.2 5.5
1970 6.2 6.1 5.8 6.1 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.4 5.7 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7
1971 5.3 5.0 4.7 4.2 4.4 4.6 4.4 4.6 4.1 3.8 3.3 3.3 4.4
1972 3.3 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.2 2.7 2.9 2.9 3.2 3.4 3.7 3.4 3.2
1973 3.6 3.9 4.6 5.1 5.5 6.0 5.7 7.4 7.4 7.8 8.3 8.7 6.2
1974 9.4 10.0 10.4 10.1 10.7 10.9 11.5 10.9 11.9 12.1 12.2 12.3 11.0
1975 11.8 11.2 10.3 10.2 9.5 9.4 9.7 8.6 7.9 7.4 7.4 6.9 9.1
1976 6.7 6.3 6.1 6.0 6.2 6.0 5.4 5.7 5.5 5.5 4.9 4.9 5.8
1977 5.2 5.9 6.4 7.0 6.7 6.9 6.8 6.6 6.6 6.4 6.7 6.7 6.5
1978 6.8 6.4 6.6 6.5 7.0 7.4 7.7 7.8 8.3 8.9 8.9 9.0 7.6
1979 9.3 9.9 10.1 10.5 10.9 10.9 11.3 11.8 12.2 12.1 12.6 13.3 11.3
1980 13.9 14.2 14.8 14.7 14.4 14.4 13.1 12.9 12.6 12.8 12.6 12.5 13.5
1981 11.8 11.4 10.5 10.0 9.8 9.6 10.8 10.8 11.0 10.1 9.6 8.9 10.3
1982 8.4 7.6 6.8 6.5 6.7 7.1 6.4 5.9 5.0 5.1 4.6 3.8 6.2
1983 3.7 3.5 3.6 3.9 3.5 2.6 2.5 2.6 2.9 2.9 3.3 3.8 3.2
1984 4.2 4.6 4.8 4.6 4.2 4.2 4.2 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.1 3.9 4.3
You'll notice inflation dropped for awhile during Carters years before it peaked in 80.
Do you know when Carter was President? The election was in November 1980. Stop making a fool out of yourself. 78/80 were horrible and Carter was President.
Duh. I know when he was president and inflation figures were just as "horrible" in 74-75. Nixon/Ford were in control then. Not Carter.. The second Arab oil embargo caused the skyrocketing inflation in 79-80 just like the first one under Nixon.
Unemployment was worse under Reagan and inflation was finally brought under control. Volckers plan to reduce inflation by raising interest rates was a success.
Nixon/Ford, Carter and Reagan's first term were equally miserable yet Carter is the only one that gets blamed. That is what partisan spin does to history
Keep digging that hole deeper. Read the chart you posted on inflation. Then you post an unemployment chart that has both Reagan and Nixon better. You simply cannot admit that you are wrong.
Carter inflation was the worst on your chart. There was a worse oil embargo in 1973 and Carter wasn't in office. Jimmy Carter was the worst President in Modern history until now. Obama will be Carter's savior.
Reagan truly inherited a mess. Obama inherited a mess that he helped create.
How exactly did Obama have anything to do with the recession that started before he was in office? Which votes did he make that had a direct effect on the economy?
If you want to claim Obama exhaberrated it when he was in office then so did Reagan. It took Reagan 3 and a half years to get unemployment down to the levels it was at when Reagan took office. Meanwhile Reagan still blamed Carter for the mess and you gave Reagan a pass.
Carter was to blame for the OPEC oil crisis and the ensuing inflation. Obama is to blame for the recession. Bush was no doubt to blame for the hurricane in NO.
The president is always to blame for all disasters, natural and man made.
right?
Since we have three equal branches of govt. are you telling me the legislative branch had no responsibility in the recession we have today? We do not elect a King and we had a Congress more interested in regaining the WH than in doing anything to help the economy and make Bush look good.
Reagan did the right thing, focused on the private sector, Obama focused on the public sector. Reagan started getting results one year after his tax cuts went through, it has been over a year since Obama's stimulus plan went through and all we have to show for it is continued growth in unemployment and debt.
Reagan wasn't in the Congress thus he inherited the Carter mess. Obama was and helped create it.
PogueMoran;1058586142]You act like you're the expert here. What specific votes did congress have that created this mess? Can you point to any?
Reagan pumped a lot of money into the military. Reagan didn't get results his first year in that's why unemployment went over 10.2% and didn't come down to where it was until 3 and a half years into his term. Reagan had to launch another round of tax cuts. The unemployment rate is going down. A fair amount of the debt we have is from Obama now putting the two wars into the budget and the hole left by Bush's tax cuts which ended up costing us money.
If tax cuts were the solution we wouldn't have been in the mess we were in. Reagan had 3 a half years of continued problematic unemployment why didn't you complained back then?
I'm not missing the point at all. You haven't made a real point but to blame Obama without being able to point to anything he did to create the mess he inherited. Like most idealogues you make such broadsweeping statements but when called on it you can't back it up. I haven't made such statements in this thread Con. You made a statement back it up.Again, you miss the point completely like most ideologues. What vote does the President cast and what legislation did Bush create that caused the recession? You want to blame the President so since that is what you do, then tell me what he did to cause the recession?
Using your numbers he doubled the budget. That's quite a jump. However when he left office US military spending was at 427 billion. I thought spending was bad? Guess not.That seems to be a big misconception, Reagan grew the military from 150 billion to 300 billion in 8 years, hardly excessive based upon the mess he was left. Before Reagan we had planes and helicopters that wouldn't fly.
The magic benefits that he was still complaining about not working up until 1983 when he was still blaming carter. And there's the keyword there it took time. It took Reagan 3 and a half years to get unemployment under control. You've most likely been complaining since Obama entered office. Reagan's tax cuts didn't work for 3 years. Even then he had to increase military spending and increase taxes effectively taking back half those tax cuts.Wrong, Reagan tax cuts went into effect in October 1981 and the benefits started about a year later. His tax cuts were 25 percent over 3 years. The first year he countered the Carter malaise, rising unemployment, 20% interest rates, high inflation. It took time. That wasn't the case when Obama took office. Interest rates were low and inflation was almost non existent. The right thing to do would have been what Reagan did, cut taxes to spir the private sector
If tax cuts were magical how come there weren't 20 million new jobs under Bush?Reagan understood what empowering the American people does to the U.S. Economy. His tax cuts created about 20 million new jobs and thus new taxpayers thus the govt. revenue grew.
You can continue to buy the Obama and liberal rhetoric but the facts simply do not support your point of view. BEA.gov is a great site to go to. There you will find economic growth, revenue and receipts by category. then go to bls.gov for the employment and unemployment numbers.
Obama empowering the Govt. will never generate those numbers. Notice how his economic growth didn't grow one dime of govt. revenue? That should tell you a lot but probably won't
PogueMoran;1058586198]I'm not missing the point at all. You haven't made a real point but to blame Obama without being able to point to anything he did to create the mess he inherited. Like most idealogues you make such broadsweeping statements but when called on it you can't back it up. I haven't made such statements in this thread Con. You made a statement back it up.
Using your numbers he doubled the budget. That's quite a jump. However when he left office US military spending was at 427 billion. I thought spending was bad? Guess not.
Before Reagan planes and helicopters didn't work? He just waved his hands around and said the magic words and they flew? Wow you're ridiculous
The magic benefits that he was still complaining about not working up until 1983 when he was still blaming carter. And there's the keyword there it took time. It took Reagan 3 and a half years to get unemployment under control. You've most likely been complaining since Obama entered office. Reagan's tax cuts didn't work for 3 years. Even then he had to increase military spending and increase taxes effectively taking back half those tax cuts.
If tax cuts were magical how come there weren't 20 million new jobs under Bush?
No I buy reality. You can continue claiming that BEA or BLS supports your view but you've never actually quoted anything from them. BLS shows me that Reagan had a continuing problem for 3 and a half years. Reagan empowered the government through increased military spending. He also helped welfare through the earned income tax credit which is a form of wealth redistribution.
Again you missed the basic difference and why Obama is going to fail. We have a private sector that got the stimulus it needed under Reagan and under Reagan the stimulus went to the public sector under Obama. You cannot stimulate and grow jobs by stimulating the public sector.
THIS is the key paragraph in all the postings on this subject. Reagan knew how to stimulate the economy, Obama doesn't.
That's why Obama will fail and be a one term president.
USA-1;1058585985]Look at the numbers.
Volcker set interest rates high to combat the out of control inflation that Carter inherited from the previous administrations. High gas prices were what fueled inflation and the first Arab oil embargo was during Nixons term.
It amazes me how some people can ignore historical records and depend on spin to formulate their opinions.
Nixon, Ford and Carter all experienced out of control inflation. It was so bad under Nixon he implemented The Wage and Price freeze that made things worse. You just seem to ignore that fact of history.
Inflation
969 4.4 4.7 5.2 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.4 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.9 6.2 5.5
1970 6.2 6.1 5.8 6.1 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.4 5.7 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7
1971 5.3 5.0 4.7 4.2 4.4 4.6 4.4 4.6 4.1 3.8 3.3 3.3 4.4
1972 3.3 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.2 2.7 2.9 2.9 3.2 3.4 3.7 3.4 3.2
1973 3.6 3.9 4.6 5.1 5.5 6.0 5.7 7.4 7.4 7.8 8.3 8.7 6.2
1974 9.4 10.0 10.4 10.1 10.7 10.9 11.5 10.9 11.9 12.1 12.2 12.3 11.0
1975 11.8 11.2 10.3 10.2 9.5 9.4 9.7 8.6 7.9 7.4 7.4 6.9 9.1
1976 6.7 6.3 6.1 6.0 6.2 6.0 5.4 5.7 5.5 5.5 4.9 4.9 5.8
1977 5.2 5.9 6.4 7.0 6.7 6.9 6.8 6.6 6.6 6.4 6.7 6.7 6.5
1978 6.8 6.4 6.6 6.5 7.0 7.4 7.7 7.8 8.3 8.9 8.9 9.0 7.6
1979 9.3 9.9 10.1 10.5 10.9 10.9 11.3 11.8 12.2 12.1 12.6 13.3 11.3
1980 13.9 14.2 14.8 14.7 14.4 14.4 13.1 12.9 12.6 12.8 12.6 12.5 13.5
1981
11.8 11.4 10.5 10.0 9.8 9.6 10.8 10.8 11.0 10.1 9.6 8.9 10.3
1982 8.4 7.6 6.8 6.5 6.7 7.1 6.4 5.9 5.0 5.1 4.6 3.8 6.2
1983 3.7 3.5 3.6 3.9 3.5 2.6 2.5 2.6 2.9 2.9 3.3 3.8 3.2
1984 4.2 4.6 4.8 4.6 4.2 4.2 4.2 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.1 3.9 4.3
You'll notice inflation dropped for awhile during Carters years before it peaked in 80. You'll notice both spikes in inflation coincide with the Arab oil embargos.
Why don't you think for a change instead of buying what are told and ignoring basic civics and economics.
What the hell did the Democratic Congress do for the two years they were in control and had equal responsibility for the govt.? Do you understand equal branches of the govt?
You want to ignore actual facts to buy the rhetoric. You want to blame Bush for the deficit yet Bush didn't sign the stimulus plan in February 2009 or the GM/Chrysler bailout? GW Bush didn't pass TARP by himself and Obama supported not only TARP but every spending bill Bush created.
You want to blame Bush for torture, rendition, pre emptive wars but ignore the fact that we weren't attacked during the last 7 years of the Bush Administration and every action taken by our military was supported by the Judicial Dept. That isn't going to change the hatred you have for this country and our own freedoms.
Now you can continue to make a fool out of yourself and hide behind your computer but the facts simply do not support your point of view.
Obama is a disaster and trying to mold this country into a European socialist model that has been a failure. He has generated more debt in less than 2 years than Bush did in 8. His stimulus plan has not generated one additional dime in economic growth dollars to the govt. and has led to over 15 million unemployed individuals and more when you count the discouraged and others who have dropped out of the labor market and simply have given up looking.
You are now part of the 6% that believe Obama stimulus has created jobs and you seem to be part of the Obama cult that ignores what he has done. Why don't you tell me what it is that Obama has done that has made this country safer and economically stronger?
how did GW Bush hurt you or your family? What economic policy that he implemented hurt you?
upsideguy;1058596301]Where do we start with this mess? The poster consistently admonishes me for not thinking, for getting my ideas from liberal talking points; yet he is far more guilty of the crime than I.
He suggests my hatred for this country, yet there isn't one statement in my post that would suggest that I hate anything other than the presidency of George Bush. In fact, I even suggested that I might personally like George Bush, I just hated his presidency. That just sounds like something you heard from Hannity or Goldberg: "Liberals Hate America." Not true! We love it as much and maybe more than you do. As a thinker, however, you surely can understand, tolerate and even respect those that see things different than you. You, of course, realize that differing points of view and debate is a big part of the "secret sauce" that makes America great.
Speaking of Faux News, I noted another tired talking point in your tirade: "he kept us safe for 7 years because of his actions".... Of course, if you want to go there, then he really kept us safe for 7 out of 8 years (why is it we never count that "other year"). 7 out of 8, is a helluva a day at the plate, but not so good at the Oval Office. Don't worry, I don't blame Bush for 9/11 nor do I credit him for "keeping us safe." Al Qaeda is not army. They can't keep hitting one after another as the old administration wanted you to believe and that the absence of an attack somehow meant something.
Instead of crediting GW, I think his policies actually weakened us. Rather than of show leadership on 9/12 by announcing that America would be undeterred (unchanged) by 9/11, he lead the charge the charge to change America. That was exactly what Al Qaeda wanted. He showed weakness when America needed strength.
The fundamental principle of 4th generation warfare (asymmetric war) is to find leverage points.... create a simple attack and then let the "enemy" implode. Al Qaeda played Bush/Cheney like a fiddle, and we went along.... we allowed ourselves to feel the terror and reacted in all the wrong ways. Bush/Cheney constantly talked about being hit again.... they worked to instill fear in America. In our terror, we were more than happy to sacrifice our values and our rights so that we would not be killed. We allowed warrantless wire tapes, renditions, torture, etc..... to "keep us safe". While we applauded our soldiers for dying for our freedoms abroad, at home we were more than happy to give up our freedoms so we would not die. Bush/Cheney were part of the problem, not the solution.
Iraq was a grave distraction from the mission at hand: get Bin Laden. We never gave Bin Laden much attention at all, though he promised to get him "dead or alive". Instead, we used 9/11 as a convenient excuse to execute the Iraq plan. Now, Iraq might have been ok had we 1) raised taxes to pay for the war and 2) prosecuted the war fully... not with Rummy's expeditionary force.... that is what got us in trouble there.
As I pointed out earlier, the double wars and simultaneous tax cuts were a major reason a huge run-up in the national debt from 5.5T to $10T from 1/1/01 to 12/31/08. My point was about the debt, not the deficit. You (and curiously Faux News) continues to want to assign blame to the Dems on this... but the debt is the debt. It is the result of deficit spending BEFORE the Dems gained control of congress. Now we could have a interesting discussion about when, if ever, the Dems actually gained control of congress and to what extent they would have had an impact on the debt, but that would involve some nuance that seems above your pay grade.... but the doubling of the debt is almost entirely a Republican responsibility. The economy crashed in 2008... on Bush's watch. The reasons for the crash are very complicated. The debt is part of it, but there were other elements that would be a stretch to lay on the hands of the Dems, who, at best, had power for a year and few months, and did not have the time to do anything destructive. Sorry, the bad economy is a Bush responsibility.
This brings us to the deficit. Now here an argument that the Dems have some responsibility holds a bit more water, but I for one do not buy it. The big components of the deficit remain the unfunded war (Bush), the mess of an economy is passed along (Bush) which will result in diminished tax revenues. The Dems responsibility is in the bailout. However, much like Katrina... the damage was done on the earlier watch, is it really fair to stick the new guys with the blame for the cost of repair. Bush did the right thing initiating TARP, etc. (the bailouts BTW, will make the US money, so its really hard to call that real deficit)
As to whether I think the Obama bailout is working, you once again took liberties with what I think. I had made no comments on whether the existing bailout is working or producing jobs.... and as the saying goes, when you ASSume you are an _____. I actually think the Obama bailout is lame. It isn't big enough and too much of it (1/3) was tied up in tax cuts, which are woefully ineffective in a deep recession. Accordingly, its going to be slow going digging our way out, but the leading indicators speak for themselves. This is happening.
Another favorite saying from Faux News.... Obama is a socialist leading us to European style socialist model that has been a failure. Now, as a real thinker, you understand that while that makes a great sound bite, Obama is not a socialist. Yes, he ran on universal healthcare. It was a big part of his platform and he won big. Having universal healthcare is not socialism, unless the US is the only non-socialist country in the 1st world (as it is the only one without universal healthcare). If that is case, then socialism works as there are many other economies that are doing quite well, thank you. Or, more directly, European style socialism has actually worked pretty well in Norway, Sweden, Switz, Germany, the UK and Canada, all of which enjoy standards of living that are equal to, if not better than, that of the US. Of course I will get the lame response to this that if I think they are so great, why don't I move there... which is a very lame response. As a thinking person, you look in the mirror every day and say "what can I do to be a better person, employee, spouse. dad.. whatever..." Where am I doing well and where can I improve? If you don't do this, you might as well be dead.
Finally, as to point about what harm has Bush done to me or my family. Thanks for asking! The answer is NONE. In fact, Bush's tax policies were quite beneficial to me, thank you. We sold our business in 2008 and enjoyed my 15% cap gains on much of the sale... Of course I still had a very big tax bill (which paid the salaries of a congressional delegation from a small state and gave 10% away.) That all said, my political views are not all about whether I personally benefit, but what I believe is right or wrong for America and its people.
That is enough of you, Conserv.... I think you are the one that should be doing more thinking. Your posts need to offer more original thought, relying less on the cliche, the trite and the assumption about what others think.