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Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

Re: Great News!

They get double representation at the expense of their non unionized fellow citizens.

They can possibly affect policy which can influence their future employment.
It's completely unethical.

Wonderful post, its so obvious to those who can think/want an honest discussion, right?
 
I can respond to anyone, at any time, as per my discretion. If you are lucky enough to receive a response, consider yourself fortunate.

Post something rational, and I might respond.

ok, in which post were you lying
the previous one in which you proudly declared you put me on ignore
or the one above
 
It is stupid posts like this that illustrate why I avoid this poster.
we notice from your reply how well you avoid my posts

Look up BINDING ARBITRATION, you might actually learn something.
i represent bargaining unit members during arbitrations. what is it your definition is to teach me relative to this topic: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

Don't make idiotic statements unless you have the facts behind you.
ok. point out the idiotic statement which you believe to be non-factual, and share with us what about it should be found without basis in fact
or is that just a phrase that has been directed toward you so frequently you thought you should haphazardly direct it toward another


Can you make more idiotically useless generalizations than this, that have no basis in fact?
ok, here is what i said, which resulted in your above derision. please point out what is unfactual about what i have presented:
that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees
 
we notice from your reply how well you avoid my posts

Still waiting, along with the other thread posters, what year you plan on addressing the earlier posts, particular the article link I posted. Sure, I'll hold my breath... :yawn:

i represent bargaining unit members during arbitrations. what is it your definition is to teach me relative to this topic:

You claimed that employers cannot be forced into a contract, this is clearly false. Binding arbitration is one method, another is the Department of Labor/government can order an employer to accept a union's offering.

Regardless, this is, as usual for your nonsense, OFF-TOPIC.

This thread is for PUBLIC UNIONS. You cannot seem to do 2 things, stop attacking posters personally, and sticking to the thread topic.

And you wonder why your credibility is non existent, you just keep getting banned like this:

Political Forum - View Profile: justabubba
 
Good post. Read my earlier post in this thread form the City Journal, in NYC public workers could not even form a union until the 50s - and even private sector unions did not believe it to be a wise idea.... :(

yeah, we need to get the executive order authorizing federal employees to unionize revoked.
 
I would disagree in that, with all the corporations that have been run into the ground (AIG, Enron, Bear Stearns, etc), it is actually the CEO's who are the parasites. Many of the ones that are still standing are still sucking on the government tit too.

certainly you have cases of corruption at the top; but it is unions who irrevocably over time can destroy a company beyond it's ability to recover.
 
Still waiting, along with the other thread posters, what year you plan on addressing the earlier posts, particular the article link I posted. Sure, I'll hold my breath... :yawn:
which posts and what articles have i ignored? please point them out. post number(s) will be adequate

You claimed that employers cannot be forced into a contract, this is clearly false. Binding arbitration is one method, another is the Department of Labor/government can order an employer to accept a union's offering.
actually, here is what happens in the federal sector when the two parties are unable to negotiate one or more provisions of their contract and declare an impasse
the federal mediation and conciliation service is brought in. they probe and prod each side to see if they can't convince the parties to find agreement
once this is concluded the FMCS notifies the federal impasses panel that the parties are at impasse
the parties then submit their last proposals for the impasse panel to decide which one it will order to be implemented
my experience is, the party with the more unreasonable final proposal usually loses before the impasse panel

Regardless, this is, as usual for your nonsense, OFF-TOPIC.
it seems you want to discuss the nuances of union activities for public organizations until you realize that you have nothing to offer in rebuttal when prompted to defend your spurious pronouncements
but point out the off-topic character of my posts; illuminate us all

This thread is for PUBLIC UNIONS.
have i not repeatedly addressed the inner workings of public unions and why they are a positive influence

You cannot seem to do 2 things, stop attacking posters personally, and sticking to the thread topic.
such as insisting that i put you on ignore because of what was stated in your signature
ooops ... that's what you did - to me. supposedly
i guess in your world that would be found 'on topic' discussion, giving you a 'right' to insist others are going off topic when they reply to such absurdity

or maybe, your idea of staying on-topic is introducing that the forum member has been banished from another forum. maybe you can explain how that would be found on-topic

And you wonder why your credibility is non existent, you just keep getting banned like this:

Political Forum - View Profile: justabubba
you insist that i keep getting banned ... but where else have i been banished ... or is this another one of your unsupportable statements, being unable to point to my keeping getting banned. it requires more than one place for such a statement not to be found bogus on its face

again, you will come up empty ... but you will probably then resume your whining because i followed you into an off-topic arena
 
which posts and what articles have i ignored? please point them out. post number(s) will be adequate

There have been some 15-20 posts here, including the link to the article i posted in this thread, where you have yet to address any of the points in them.

actually, here is what happens in the federal sector

We were focusing on the local/states...

it seems you want to discuss the nuances of union activities for public organizations until you realize that you have nothing to offer in rebuttal

The requisite personal slur/insult. I can see why you were ejected from pofo.com... :roll:

Guess you just decided to scroll past and avoid the last 10 pages of posts...accusing others of being without an argument, yet you've avoided the posts of some 5-10 people, good try... :doh

have i not repeatedly addressed the inner workings of public unions and why they are a positive influence

The requisite slur, then the flame-bait, yeah, you're firing on all cylinders...

such as insisting that i put you on ignore because of what was stated in your signature

<I> decide who and what i will respond to, not you sweetie...

you insist that i keep getting banned ... but where else have i been banished ...

Political Forum - US & World Politics Forum

Guess reading and detail orientation is not important with you, its been posted multiple times already...
 
A union exists for one reason and one reason alone -- to get its members the most compensation for the least amount of work. Any formulation you want to put on it, it boils down to that.

And what is wrong with that?

Is that not the entire point of a capitalist economic system?

To ensure the highest possible returns (ie profits) on what ever goods and services you sell. In the case of union members it is their labour

Ford wants to make as much money as possible on the cars it sells, should not the people who assemble said cars seek to make as much money as possible for the labour they sell
 
And what is wrong with that?

Is that not the entire point of a capitalist economic system?

To ensure the highest possible returns (ie profits) on what ever goods and services you sell. In the case of union members it is their labour

Ford wants to make as much money as possible on the cars it sells, should not the people who assemble said cars seek to make as much money as possible for the labour they sell

It entertains me to no end that you people assume just because I said it, I must think there's something wrong with it.
 
Here is an excellent companion piece on the government-union complex by Daniel Henniger, which was actually published in the Wall Street Journal before the article cited in the OP.

. . .

The central battle in our time is over political primacy. It is a competition between the public sector and the private sector over who defines the work and the institutions that make a nation thrive and grow.

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy planted the seeds that grew the modern Democratic Party. That year, JFK signed executive order 10988 allowing the unionization of the federal work force.

This in turn led to the fantastic growth in membership of the public employee unions—The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and the teachers' National Education Association.

They broke the public's bank. More than that, they entrenched a system of taking money from members' dues and spending it on political campaigns. Over time, this transformed the Democratic Party into a public-sector dependency.

Daniel Henninger: The Fall of the House of Kennedy - WSJ.com
 
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Here is an excellent companion piece on the government-union complex by Daniel Henniger, which was actually published in the Wall Street Journal before the article cited in the OP.

. . .

The central battle in our time is over political primacy. It is a competition between the public sector and the private sector over who defines the work and the institutions that make a nation thrive and grow.

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy planted the seeds that grew the modern Democratic Party. That year, JFK signed executive order 10988 allowing the unionization of the federal work force.

This in turn led to the fantastic growth in membership of the public employee unions—The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and the teachers' National Education Association.

They broke the public's bank. More than that, they entrenched a system of taking money from members' dues and spending it on political campaigns. Over time, this transformed the Democratic Party into a public-sector dependency.

Daniel Henninger: The Fall of the House of Kennedy - WSJ.com

Great post. See my article earlier in the thread at cityjournal.com.
 
Thanks.

Largest-ever federal payroll to hit 2.15 million

The era of big government has returned with a vengeance, in the form of the largest federal work force in modern history.
. . .
The American Federation of Government Employees, the union that represents many government workers, said it was combing through the budget and did not have a comment.

Largest-ever federal payroll to hit 2.15 million - Washington Times
 
Thanks.

Largest-ever federal payroll to hit 2.15 million

The era of big government has returned with a vengeance, in the form of the largest federal work force in modern history.​

. . .
The American Federation of Government Employees, the union that represents many government workers, said it was combing through the budget and did not have a comment.

Largest-ever federal payroll to hit 2.15 million - Washington Times

really. didn't have a comment. then you did not look for what they had to say:
... "For too long, the unpredictability and inadequacy of the VA's discretionary funding process has had an adverse impact on the care of our nation's veterans. With an increase in funding of 20% since 2009, and with advanced appropriations, the 2011 budget honors veterans by fortifying the world-class medical care they deserve," said J. David Cox, AFGE national secretary-treasurer and former VA nurse. ...
Federal Employee Union Responds to Obama Budget -- WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

or maybe that union's support of more assistance for funding is something you don't agree with

gage is absolutely correct in this assessment. the federal contracting mechanism was intentionally handicapped by the dicknbush regime, allowing well connected contractors to be unfairly enriched at taxpayer expense:
... The 2011 budget touches on the need to control contractor costs. "We are as committed to eliminating waste, fraud and abuse with the federal government as anyone. However, many federal agencies have not yet recovered from the onslaught they experienced during the past administration. We are eager for more defined guidance on the insourcing of government jobs. Over the past decade far too many American tax dollars were wasted away through sole-source contracts and misguided personnel systems. The boost in the acquisition workforce in the 2011 budget points to a desire for more government efficiency which would allow agencies to rein in their budgets while still hiring more federal employees," said Gage. ...

it seems you also ignored that 700,000 military personnel are included in your headline figure. are you wanting to tell us in your unique way that you think we have too many troops on the federal payroll. and while it was made obvious in the article you cited that 80,000 temp workers for the payroll will be off the federal rolls at the conclusion of the 2010 census, you conveniently ignore that fact; that factual information might have offered a reasonable perspective which you could not allow to intrude on a discussion of an Obama-submitted budget
 

And SD, here is another great editorial on this topic, from today's WSJ. It's laughable that the public unions aren't even making an attempt to justify their greed, which is worse than anything the banks did. At least with the banks, they are paying the borrowed TARP $$ back; money flushed into the public unions is gone forever.

No wonder the country's urban infrastructure is falling apart, how can there be any moeny left for bridges and roads when 75% of every tax dollar goes into the union worker's health, salary or pension plan?

The Public-Union Ascendancy - WSJ.com

REVIEW & OUTLOOK - FEBRUARY 3, 2010.

The Public-Union Ascendancy

Government union members now outnumber private for the first time...

It's now official: In 2009 the number of unionized workers who work for the government surpassed those in the private economy for the first time. This milestone explains a lot about modern American politics, in particular the paradox that union clout with Democrats has increased even as fewer workers belong to unions overall.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported recently that 51.4% of America's 15.4 million union members, or about 7.91 million workers, were employed by the government in 2009. As recently as 1980, there were more than twice as many private as public union members. But private union membership has continued to decline, even as unions have organized more public employees. The nearby chart shows the historical trend.

Overall unionism keeps declining, however, with the loss of 771,000 union jobs amid last year's recession. Only one in eight workers (12.3%) now belongs to a union, with private union employment hitting a record low of 7.2% of all jobs, down from 7.6% in 2008. Only one in 13 U.S. workers in the private economy pays union dues. In government, by contrast, the union employee share rose to 37.4% from 36.8% the year before.

In private industries, union workers are subject to the vagaries of the marketplace and economic growth. Thus in 2009 10.1% of private union jobs were eliminated, which was more than twice the 4.4% rate of overall private job losses. On the other hand, government unions offer what is close to lifetime job security and benefits, subject only to gross dereliction of duty. Once a city or state's workers are organized by a union, the jobs almost never go away.

This means government is the main playing field of modern unionism, which explains why the AFL-CIO and SEIU have become advocates for higher taxes and government expansion in cities, states and Washington. Unions once saw their main task as negotiating a bigger share of an individual firm's profits. Now the movement's main goal is securing a larger share of the overall private economy's wealth, which means pitting government employees against middle-class taxpayers.

And as union membership has grown in government, so has union clout in pushing politicians (especially but not solely Democrats) for higher wages and benefits. This is why labor chiefs Andy Stern (SEIU) and Rich Trumka (AFL-CIO) could order Democrats to exempt unions from ObamaCare's tax increase on high-cost health insurance plans. To the extent Democrats have become the party of government, they have become ever more beholden to public unions.

The problem for democracy is that this creates a self-reinforcing cycle of higher spending and taxes. The unions help elect politicians, who repay the unions with more pay and benefits and dues-paying members, who in turn help to re-elect those politicians.

The political scientists Fred Siegel and Dan DiSalvo recently wrote in the Weekly Standard about the 2006 example of former New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine shouting to a rally of 10,000 public workers that "We will fight for a fair contract." Mr. Corzine was supposed to be on the other side of the bargaining table representing taxpayers, not labor.

From time to time, usually requiring a fiscal crisis, middle-class taxpayers in the private economy will revolt enough to check this vicious political cycle. (See Scott Brown.) But sooner or later, the unions regain their political advantage because taxpayers have other concerns while unions have the most to gain or lose.

This is why most Democrats once opposed public-sector unionism. Such 20th-century liberal heroes as New York Mayor Fiorella LaGuardia and Franklin Roosevelt believed fervently in industrial unions. But they believed public employees had a special social obligation and could too easily exploit their monopoly position. How right they were.

As we can see from the desperate economic and fiscal woes of California, New Jersey, New York and other states with dominant public unions, this has become a major problem for the U.S. economy and small-d democratic governance. It may be the single biggest problem. The agenda for American political reform needs to include the breaking of public unionism's power to capture an ever-larger share of private income.

Copyright 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved
 
Thanks again. That's an informative piece. These are not good trends for the health of the republic.
 
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