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Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

Besides, if government is so wonderful and should have so much charge of our lives, why would government employees NEED unions?

it government were always wonderful, then the employees would not NEED unions
but, the public sector employer can and does sometimes exploit its employees, which has caused the employees to petition for an election to become represented by a union
after which a democratic vote would have been held, in which the majority of the employees determined that a union should represent their interests
 
Re: Great News!

the same. i understand your trepidation

A more accurate term would be nausea, since you are considered a troll - and have been banned for such - more than once, from more than one board.

the monopoly enjoyed by the employer has nothing to do with the right to unionize collective bargaining allows the employee to have a more level playing field relative to his/her conditions of employment on the job site; whether a public or a private concern

Meaningless nonsense. The city is there to provide services first and foremost, as efficiently as possible and at as lowest cost as possible - this is a higher level of consideration that any other.

sure you can. in my community, on a state line, they do it all the time, to avoid paying taxes. they then often commute to the destination they left to enjoy the benefits and services of the destination they left

Tell me how many public school choices are offered, police forces, fire depts., garbage collection, road repair, street light repair etc, are available. These are fundamental civic services for which only the municipality provides for. You are wasting your time trying to debate me with this, and your trolling reputation long precedes your posts here...
 
Re: Great News!

why should this be found as a trolling post:

that it asks questions, which answers undermine your position, does not constitute trolling

and go on ahead and count the other forums. tell us all the forums from which i have been expelled and for what reasons. or is it that you would you prefer to attack the messenger when you are unable to dislodge the message

It is a trolling post because it is asking questions on page 6 of a thread addressed earlier.
 
and you as a resident can choose to reside elsewhere ... nothing forces you to reside in a locale which tolerates unionization in its public sector

That's like saying becuase i do not like how my gov't functions - i will move.

WRONG.

You fix the government, gov't is for the benefit of all, not just the public unions.

wrong again. the employee pays the union dues. not the employer. usually, the dues are withheld from the employee's paycheck

Troll, where does EVERY NICKEL from the "employer", i.e, city come from?

TAXPAYERS.

the union does not lobby against your interests. the union advocates for the employees' interests

Which I as a taxpayer pay for, and cause the city to have to spend MORE to provide basic services.

Anything that causes the city to have to raise MORE taxes to pay for these services IS against my interests.
 
Re: Great News!

how is there a conflict of interest? show us your definition which proves that alleged conflict/ those communities fall on financial hard times, and you blame that on the unions. an absurd conclusion. please point to any instance where the union had a right to impose the conditions which led to the present financial morass in any of those communities

For others than the troll, all of the locations, particularly NY, are now spending the vast majority of their budgets on union salaries and benefits.

These locations are broke, and all have the highest tax levels in the country. Not too hard to figure out, if you are interested in a real conversation, and not trolling. Can't wait for you to get banned here too... :rofl

And I took notice just now of your sig, you are now IGNORED.
 
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Re: Great News!

It has a lot to do with it. What do you think it means for us taxpayers when a public employee gets as pension 70% of his or her highest salary? When the majority of private employees are lucky to even get 30%.

And another thing that helps screws us is the fact that most public contracts go to friends of the politician who will pay whatever the contractor asks for so long as the contractor gives some of the money back to the politician. Which helps add to us being screwed.
I didn't see the source for your statement here, could you provide it?
 
Re: Great News!

I didn't see the source for your statement here, could you provide it?

American, I'll do you one better; there are public unions that get 90% of their last year's salary, rather than an average of say, the last 3 years, and can retire as young as 50, or in some places - even FORTY(!).

This way they can load up on overtime their last year before retiring, and boost their pension payout significantly:

Bad data, unfounded fears fueled pension crisis - News - The Orange County Register

"Some other states are also wrestling with retirement costs. But California is the only one that allows nearly all public safety workers to retire at age 50 with 90 percent of their salaries."

-------------------------------------------------

Even better, in NY state you can go online and see the pensions being paid out, many are as high as $500,000!!! Just insane, and of course, totally unsustainable...
 
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Re: Great News!

A more accurate term would be nausea, since you are considered a troll - and have been banned for such - more than once, from more than one board.

Moderator's Warning:
This kind of posting is, of itself, trolling. You have done this in numerous posts. Cease this behavior or there will be further consequences.
 
Re: Great News!

American, I'll do you one better; there are public unions that get 90% of their last year's salary, rather than an average of say, the last 3 years, and can retire as young as 50, or in some places - even FORTY(!).

This way they can load up on overtime their last year before retiring, and boost their pension payout significantly:

Bad data, unfounded fears fueled pension crisis - News - The Orange County Register

"Some other states are also wrestling with retirement costs. But California is the only one that allows nearly all public safety workers to retire at age 50 with 90 percent of their salaries."

-------------------------------------------------

Even better, in NY state you can go online and see the pensions being paid out, many are as high as $500,000!!! Just insane, and of course, totally unsustainable...
So this is all about California?
 
Re: Great News!

So this is all about California?

Its a nationwide issue, but the liberal, blue states with large, unionized public workforces have the most extreme problem of it.
 
those opposed to unions remind me of the defaulted homeowner who is now facing foreclosure because he cannot afford to repay the mortgage he agreed to pay

that person commonly laments that it is the fault of the banker for making him a loan the banker should have known he would not be able to pay



whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate

now that they can no longer afford that financial obligation they have entered into - usually one they should have had the common sense not to agree to before signing on the line; like the defaulting homeowner, they - and their reich wing cohort - now want to blame someone else for the poor decision they made


where is the the accepting of personal responsibility - or is that another trait supposed "conservatives" have abandoned
the union negotiated conditions of employment on behalf of their represented employees. it is their fiduciary responsibility to do that
in contrast, the managers failed in fulfilling their own fiduciary responsibilities by entering into agreements, which were damaging to their organizations' long term interests

so now, rather than blaming the parties truly responsible - those who signed bad agreements - we have an element which wants to blame the unions, instead

absurd. but not surprising
 
whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate

No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily? The contract is entirely one-sided. What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?
 
those opposed to unions remind me of the defaulted homeowner who is now facing foreclosure because he cannot afford to repay the mortgage he agreed to pay

that person commonly laments that it is the fault of the banker for making him a loan the banker should have known he would not be able to pay



whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate

now that they can no longer afford that financial obligation they have entered into - usually one they should have had the common sense not to agree to before signing on the line; like the defaulting homeowner, they - and their reich wing cohort - now want to blame someone else for the poor decision they made


where is the the accepting of personal responsibility - or is that another trait supposed "conservatives" have abandoned
the union negotiated conditions of employment on behalf of their represented employees. it is their fiduciary responsibility to do that
in contrast, the managers failed in fulfilling their own fiduciary responsibilities by entering into agreements, which were damaging to their organizations' long term interests

so now, rather than blaming the parties truly responsible - those who signed bad agreements - we have an element which wants to blame the unions, instead

absurd. but not surprising

Do you understand the difference between a public and private union?
 
No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily? The contract is entirely one-sided. What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?

sorry to put it so starkly, but you are very wrong

the union has an obligation to bargain in good faith
the employer has a like obligation to negotiate in good faith
there is no obligation that they come to an agreement
if they end their negotiations and are at impasse, an objective third party - a federal agency - steps in and divides the baby on those issues remaining in dispute, by writing the terms which both must then abide by

that the employer willingly signed a contract, committing to wages and/or benefits it cannot now afford to pay, speaks to the incompetence of the management which would enter into such an unreasonable contract
my observation is that often happens when the organization would realize short term benefits by its agreement but long term, it has adverse consequences on the organization. by then, the managers who agreed to the contract and enjoyed the results are usually no longer present to deal with the negatives consequences of what they have signed
that is NOT the union's fault
 
Do you understand the difference between a public and private union?

you missed it. read it again
i mentioned both the private GMC unionization and the public state of california unionization to illustrate that my point was valid with both types of unions

and what happened to that grandstanding about placing me on ignore:
For others than the troll, all of the locations, particularly NY, are now spending the vast majority of their budgets on union salaries and benefits.

These locations are broke, and all have the highest tax levels in the country. Not too hard to figure out, if you are interested in a real conversation, and not trolling. Can't wait for you to get banned here too... :rofl


And I took notice just now of your sig, you are now IGNORED.
doesn't do much to preserve one's credibility
 
sorry to put it so starkly, but you are very wrong

the union has an obligation to bargain in good faith
the employer has a like obligation to negotiate in good faith
there is no obligation that they come to an agreement
if they end their negotiations and are at impasse, an objective third party - a federal agency - steps in and divides the baby on those issues remaining in dispute, by writing the terms which both must then abide by

But that's my point, there's always the threat of an "objective third party" arbitrating the dispute for them. The employer is FORCED into a contract with the union; they have no option to just say "Take a hike, I'm not interested."

Why SHOULD the employer have an obligation to negotiate in good faith if they just aren't interested in what the union is offering? Should I have an obligation to negotiate in good faith with every salesman who knocks on my door, or can I just tell them no?

justabubba said:
that the employer willingly signed a contract, committing to wages and/or benefits it cannot now afford to pay, speaks to the incompetence of the management which would enter into such an unreasonable contract

Are they able to tell the union no and just walk away? No, they aren't.

justabubba said:
my observation is that often happens when the organization would realize short term benefits by its agreement but long term, it has adverse consequences on the organization. by then, the managers who agreed to the contract and enjoyed the results are usually no longer present to deal with the negatives consequences of what they have signed
that is NOT the union's fault

What benefits does a union (as opposed to a free market) offer a company? If there are none, then the contract is NOT voluntary, because no employer would ever willingly enter into a contract that offered them nothing.
 
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In many cases, if I understand it correctly, they CAN say "we're not interested". The union goes on strike, they hire scabs or take the loss. But they're not forced to.
 
it government were always wonderful, then the employees would not NEED unions
but, the public sector employer can and does sometimes exploit its employees, which has caused the employees to petition for an election to become represented by a union
after which a democratic vote would have been held, in which the majority of the employees determined that a union should represent their interests

What "democratic vote"? Among the employees? If the voters as a whole aren't involved, it's not "democratic."

And of course, there's the underlying point -- if the government can't even treat its employees well enough so that they need a union, why would we want to cede vast portions of our lives over to it?
 
No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily?

you make it apparent you are unacquainted with labor provisions
the employer cannot be forced to enter into any particular contract
it can be required to participate in good faith at the bargaining table in an attempt to write a contract
but the terms of any contract are the outcome of bargaining by the parties

The contract is entirely one-sided.
the contract is entirely one sided when one of the sides is incompetent
sometimes that is the description of the union's representatives
other times it is the employer's representatives who exhibit their ineptitude

What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?
the union offers employees who share the interests of the company in a way that employees who know they are easily expendable do not
it offers employees with a knowledge base; employees who actually do the work of the company. they know where the inefficiencies are
and relative to unions representing public organizations, the union can provide continuity which might otherwise not be possible
that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees

glad you asked
 
Re: Great News!

It's an unethical relationship unless they give up being able to vote and lobby government.

i am assuming your attempt to offer a point is that the unionized government employee, being able to negotiate for self interest, must deny themself the right to vote or to lobby government
that makes no sense ... other than the present provision in the federal sector which provides that federal employees cannot lobby in their official capacity. let me note that i disagree with a current provision which exempts from that lobbying prohibition those federal employees who are in their office due to appointment by an elected official; those political appointees are free to both lobby and to campaign for individuals running for office - and do this at public expense
 
you make it apparent you are unacquainted with labor provisions
the employer cannot be forced to enter into any particular contract
it can be required to participate in good faith at the bargaining table in an attempt to write a contract
but the terms of any contract are the outcome of bargaining by the parties


the contract is entirely one sided when one of the sides is incompetent
sometimes that is the description of the union's representatives
other times it is the employer's representatives who exhibit their ineptitude

the union offers employees who share the interests of the company in a way that employees who know they are easily expendable do not
it offers employees with a knowledge base; employees who actually do the work of the company. they know where the inefficiencies are
and relative to unions representing public organizations, the union can provide continuity which might otherwise not be possible
that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees

glad you asked

A union exists for one reason and one reason alone -- to get its members the most compensation for the least amount of work. Any formulation you want to put on it, it boils down to that.
 
What "democratic vote"? Among the employees? If the voters as a whole aren't involved, it's not "democratic."
not certain what is unfair or undemocratic about a majority of the workers deciding whether they do or do not want to be able to collectively bargain over their working conditions. maybe you can explain it

And of course, there's the underlying point -- if the government can't even treat its employees well enough so that they need a union, why would we want to cede vast portions of our lives over to it?
the government is a vast bureaucracy
is it really that far fetched to recognize that some of the people who manage within that bureaucracy might exploit their authority to the detriment of the subordinate employees and/or the public the agency serves? that reality, that some work locations need fairness enforced by a union, does not mean the government agency is not performing a worthwhile service to the public
 
A union exists for one reason and one reason alone -- to get its members the most compensation for the least amount of work. Any formulation you want to put on it, it boils down to that.

absolutely wrong
in the federal sector, the congress determines the rate of pay
and the employee MUST do whatever they are told to do (the sole two exceptions being if (1) they are told to do something illegal or against regulations, or (2) if they are directed to do something which would place the employee or another person in immediate physical jeopardy). so, the employee MUST perform the work as assigned. if that resulted in a contract violation the union must enforce that violation after the fact
 
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