Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity charges

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

Yes, to some people. The question is, does the value these films hold for some people outweigh the disgust they inspire in everyone else? Does it outweigh the detrimental effects that these films have on the social behavior of the people who value them? Does the fact that some people enjoy this means that we should tolerate it?

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Who cares if the disgust outweighs it? Majority rule isn't always the best solution. What is there to tolerate? You either watch the films or you don't.

And I would say that the answer to these questions is "no". The nature of the majority of the replies I've received on the subject, between the vulgarities directed at me and the idea that we must tolerate everything that does not directly harm others, only reinforces my belief that moral standards must be reinforced lest they crumble even further beyond their current degraded state.

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And I submit that your opinion is no more valid than theirs is. Just because you have a different moral code doesn't mean that everyone has to follow suit. I would say that it should be the same the other way, however, you aren't being forced to watch these films, as I've stated before. People need to mind their own business.

I'm me, of course. If my moral code wasn't better than everyone else's, I'd be following theirs instead. Aren't you making the exact same claim, when you demand that the law be written to suit your moral beliefs and you condemn me for even suggesting otherwise?

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See above.

And in this case I'm not arguing that my moral code is better than everyone else's, or that my moral code must be made into law. I'm arguing that the vast majority of us can agree that there is something very wrong with these films and that we should not have to tolerate their existence. Unfortunately, the majority of people who agree with my first point still disagree with my second.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with these films personally. I fail to see how they affect you if you don't have to watch them.

It's as simple as it is irrelevant. I don't want these movies banned because I don't like them. There are a lot of things I don't like that I do not want banned, including forms of pornography that do not involve the depicted abuse of their performers. I want these movies banned because they encourage the people who view them to believe that these are normal and appropriate ways to treat their sexual partners. I believe that these movies are actively malignant and that they lead to harm being done to my family and my nation, whether I or anyone in my family watches them personally.

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I don't think that's necessarily true. Some people just get off on it because it's a taboo. I think very few people actually view these as normal and acceptable sex practices.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

It's a good thing Max got nabbed when he did. Eventually his porn might have gotten as nasty as the Bible.

"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4)

"that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you" (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces..."(Malachi 2:3).

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Sov said:

It's a good thing Max got nabbed when he did. Eventually his porn might have gotten as nasty as the Bible.

"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4)

"that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you" (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces..."(Malachi 2:3).

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:lol:

Considering the way that our organs of reproduction are literally combined with our organs of excretion, it's inevitable that there will be some confusion.
Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor? :lol:

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Still waiting Korimyr. Why is obcenity not speech?

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Dr_Patrick said:

I don't think that's necessarily true. Some people just get off on it because it's a taboo. I think very few people actually view these as normal and acceptable sex practices.

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What practices are these actually? Mostly wet and messy play, rough sex, oral and anal sex, rape roleplay, S&M.

These practices are indeed acceptable provided that all parties are consenting, which is true for all participants involved Max Hardcore productions.

The porn industry clearly exploits taboos and stigmas around these practices. Sexually repressed people will often make for great impulsive/compulsive buyers for online porn (e.g. binge/purge complex). So I would agree that the "forbidden fruit" aspect can add another layer of appeal of such practices, but clearly it does not account for all or even most of it. People who actually do honest and consensual BDSM and other ostensibly 'kinky' play tend to be more sexually liberal and less swayed by taboos.

Are these practices inherently 'sick' or 'abnormal'? I don't think so. I think they're expressions of human instincts and desires that are currently singled out by "polite society" as unacceptable. But go a ways back and mere oral or anal sex were widely portrayed as shockingly immoral, or any sex outside marriage for that matter. Social norms are far from set in stone. Social conservatives love to play up how nasty and promiscuous gays get at parades and in bathhouses, but I know from what I've personally observed that they are not just making it up. If men can be into "raunch" and being "pigs" and having Bacchanalian orgies then why not women? Why is it assumed that women could not possibly be into these practices "for real?" Sexism, that's why.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

Yes, to some people. The question is, does the value these films hold for some people outweigh the disgust they inspire in everyone else?

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Irrelevant. Don't like them, don't watch them. I don't care what your tastes or moral standards are. Keep them to yourself.

I believe that these movies are actively malignant and that they lead to harm being done to my family and my nation, whether I or anyone in my family watches them personally.

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How?

You're opening a huge can of worms here. You're inviting complete government intervention in anyone's sex life, including yours.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

1069 said:

:lol:

Considering the way that our organs of reproduction are literally combined with our organs of excretion, it's inevitable that there will be some confusion.
Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor? :lol:

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Naw, you don't get it, it's the Bible that causes people to be into scat! Proof:

Before Christian missionaries arrived in Japan, there was no scat porn in Japan.
After Christian missionaries arrive in Japan, BOOM! Scat porn out the ass.
What clearly happened is that Japanese people read those Bible verses, and then got the impression that scat sex is sanctioned by God.

In fact, those verses were snuck into the True Original Bible[tm] by perverted "translators." The solution is to ban those crappy versions of the Bible and release a clean and sanitized edition in line with the spirit of the original God-inspired scripture. True, it will be less than 100 pages, but how many people like to read all that much? Besides, it's better to just cut through all the crap and get right to the point.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Suppose instead of watching a Max Hardcore film in our bedroom, my wife and I re-enacted one. Would that be obscene? Could be be hauled off to jail? What's the difference?

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

What does it say about "polite society" when Max Hardcore is seen as a degenerate whereas Martin Luther is a widely revered reformer and theologian? Let's compare and contrast. Max Hardcore made some dirty movies involving consenting participants. (Some of these have gone on record stating, outside of porn, that they personally enjoy such activities.) On the other hand, Martin Luther? Let us go by the man's own words.


A notable difference is that unlike Max Hardcore's, the United States has never even considered banning Martin Luther's works. In fact, it is perfectly legal for a child of six to read these words; even for parents to instill these words into the minds of their children as literal truth. And why not? Considering the former to be obscene and not the latter is only common sense. After all, Martin Luther only laid out a detailed blueprint for the Holocaust, whereas Max Hardcore made DIRTY MOVIES EWW OMG!

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

DrunkenAsparagus said:

Still waiting Korimyr. Why is obcenity not speech?

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The Bible, like Luther's Bible-based advocacy of genocide, have the "freedom of religion" defense. Maybe Max Hardcore should have registered as a Christian denomination and referred to his movies as expressions of ritual and theology? He could say that he's punishing the women for Original Sin and that his "dominance" follows from Biblical commands that women submit to men... Of course he'd have to get nastier in order to obey God's commands for scat sex.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

I believe that these movies are actively malignant and that they lead to harm being done to my family and my nation, whether I or anyone in my family watches them personally.

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I understand that you are involved in making computer or video games? What do you think of games that glorify murder and violent crime? The First Person Shooter genre is among the most popular. Despite the oftimes lighthearted connotations of the term "game" many game companies tout how "realistic" and "immersive" their productions are. They often include very graphic violence, depictions of blood, gore, and mutilation along with murder. There are games in which the player specifically takes on the role of a hitman, or serial killer, or gangster. Take the Grand Theft Auto series for example. Do you think these games portray a healthy way of interacting with other people?

Do you support banning games of this nature and charging their producers with obscenity? If you are involved in making such games yourself, let's assume that you get a presidential pardon for your work in testifying against the industry.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

rivrrat said:

We can assume, based on the current reporting of it, that it is an uncommon situation; but it DOES happen, and it's legitimate, and it - in no way - means the person wanted what was happening to them. It merely reiterates what I and others have been saying - sexual arousal does not require emotion. (which was a ridiculous notion to begin with)

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Good post though I'd say consent, rather than emotion per se. Even with the experience of unwanted sexual arousal or orgasm there may be emotions involved, just not necessarily "positive" ones. There may be "positive" emotions (such as pleasure) and also "negative" emotions (such as humiliation) as a result of feeling the pleasure. I don't think this is far fetched at all, as the boundaries between pleasure and pain are obviously fluid (and such emotions must share underlying mechanisms). Erotic humiliation, for example, links these emotions in reverse as well.

I know a woman who's said she ended up enjoying what started out as an actual rape, because she found the rapist very attractive. She said her only fear was disease and that hit her after it was all over with. I've known her for years and she's the type who doesn't care whether she's "supposed" to feel this or that way. She's into casual sex too, has never personally understood why the act of sex is supposed to be such a big deal for a woman. I'm not saying this example means rape is okey-dokey. Real rape is a basic violation of personal sovereignty, but I think it's interesting how important one's mindset can be. Many rape victims (of course this is even much more common with statutory "rape" victims) are more traumatized by the attitudes of "society" than by the act itself.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Dr_Patrick said:

Who cares if the disgust outweighs it? Majority rule isn't always the best solution. What is there to tolerate? You either watch the films or you don't.

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I've already sufficiently addressed these points.

Dr_Patrick said:

And I submit that your opinion is no more valid than theirs is. Just because you have a different moral code doesn't mean that everyone has to follow suit. ... People need to mind their own business.

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And yet, you continue to expect that your moral beliefs be enshrined in the law. What occurs in private bedrooms between consenting adults is, with limited exceptions, none of my business. I agree with you here. However, what people film for the purposes of commercial distribution is not "none of my business" or "none of society's business", it is everyone's business and the public has a legitimate interest in maintaining standards of decency. Those standards do not necessarily have to be mine, but as a citizen-- or even merely theoretically, as I mostly argue here-- I will continue to advocate for society's standards to resemble my own.

Dr_Patrick said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with these films personally. I fail to see how they affect you if you don't have to watch them.

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Are you disagreeing with the reasons I've given for why they affect me, or are you merely ignoring them? Do you dispute that sexual pleasure reinforces behavior? Do you dispute that people associate sexual pleasure with whatever they are thinking, or feeling, or watching, while they masturbate? Do you dispute that regardless of whether or not the performers consented, the behaviors being depicted would be degrading and humiliating-- would cause psychological harm-- to a normal person who was expected to participate in them in a relationship that was otherwise intimate?

Because nobody is telling me these things. They're telling me to "shut up and mind my own business" because only their liberal moral sensibilities matter or should be considered.

Dr_Patrick said:

Some people just get off on it because it's a taboo. I think very few people actually view these as normal and acceptable sex practices.

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But the more they get off on it, the more normal they seem and the more they want these practices in their regular sex lives-- because the more they have associated sexual pleasure with these things, the more these things become a part of what "sex" means to them.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Sov said:

I understand that you are involved in making computer or video games? What do you think of games that glorify murder and violent crime? The First Person Shooter genre is among the most popular. Despite the oftimes lighthearted connotations of the term "game" many game companies tout how "realistic" and "immersive" their productions are. They often include very graphic violence, depictions of blood, gore, and mutilation along with murder. There are games in which the player specifically takes on the role of a hitman, or serial killer, or gangster. Take the Grand Theft Auto series for example. Do you think these games portray a healthy way of interacting with other people?

Do you support banning games of this nature and charging their producers with obscenity? If you are involved in making such games yourself, let's assume that you get a presidential pardon for your work in testifying against the industry.

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He makes this trash? Violent video games do infinitely more damage to our society than porn movies. Most teens will never ever see a Max Hardcore film, but many get daily doses of extreme, yet cartoony, violence from video games. Not surprised if he hasn't thought this stuff through. He also thinks that whoever North Korea executes for selling Bibles is their business and we shouldn't complain.:roll:

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

What occurs in private bedrooms between consenting adults is, with limited exceptions, none of my business. I agree with you here. However, what people film for the purposes of commercial distribution is not "none of my business" or "none of society's business", it is everyone's business and the public has a legitimate interest in maintaining standards of decency.

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Why? What is the difference? Nobody sees the movies who doesn't want to. Getting between me and a porn movie is the same as getting between me and my wife. It's my private life and it doesn't affect you or society at all.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

Do you dispute that sexual pleasure reinforces behavior? Do you dispute that people associate sexual pleasure with whatever they are thinking, or feeling, or watching, while they masturbate? Do you dispute that regardless of whether or not the performers consented, the behaviors being depicted would be degrading and humiliating-- would cause psychological harm-- to a normal person who was expected to participate in them in a relationship that was otherwise intimate?

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So are you going to regulate what people think when they masturbate, or ban masturbation?

Yes, I deny that it would cause psychological harm. I'm an adult, I can handle it. But I don't see you whining about all the horrible R-rated movies out there, like torture porn (the Saw series, for example), or video games. You worry about sex, but you completely ignore the saturation of sick violence available in any mall.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

Are you disagreeing with the reasons I've given for why they affect me, or are you merely ignoring them? Do you dispute that sexual pleasure reinforces behavior?

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What behavior? Engaging in more sexual pleasure?

Do you dispute that people associate sexual pleasure with whatever they are thinking, or feeling, or watching, while they masturbate?

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Yes.

Do you dispute that regardless of whether or not the performers consented, the behaviors being depicted would be degrading and humiliating-- would cause psychological harm-- to a normal person who was expected to participate in them in a relationship that was otherwise intimate?

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As long as they are willing, no... there is no harm, humiliation, or degradation. If someone WANTS another person to do something to them and they derive pleasure from it, how is it harming them? How is it humiliating if someone WANTS to do it? Why on earth would their pride be damaged if they're getting exactly what they want and are orgasmic about it?

YOU think it's humiliating. YOU think it would be humiliating if it were done to you. I agree that the majority of people would, but that doesn't negate that some people do NOT. And in no way is their sexual pleasure harmful to you or anyone else.

But the more they get off on it, the more normal they seem and the more they want these practices in their regular sex lives-- because the more they have associated sexual pleasure with these things, the more these things become a part of what "sex" means to them.

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WRONG.

Most people have fantasies that they jack off to and they would never, ever, EVER want them to become "real". Most people have a fantasy or two that in "real life" would NOT be sexually appealing to them. So no, you are absolutely - without a doubt - incorrect.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

But the more they get off on it, the more normal they seem and the more they want these practices in their regular sex lives-- because the more they have associated sexual pleasure with these things, the more these things become a part of what "sex" means to them.

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Do not tell me what I want to do in my regular sex life. You don't know me. And it's none of your business what I think is normal or not, or how I came to think it. I am an adult, I don't need you protecting me from porn, or from any other media for that matter. I don't need you to decide what I should read or watch. You could apply this "argument" to censor anything whatsoever, not just porn.

This comment proves that your beliefs are all about invading people's privacy and right to their own sex lives. Stay out.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

rivrrat said:

As long as they are willing, no... there is no harm, humiliation, or degradation. If someone WANTS another person to do something to them and they derive pleasure from it, how is it harming them? How is it humiliating if someone WANTS to do it?

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Someone can feel humiliation (i.e., "OMG I'm a dirty naughty slut what would my mommy think!") during consensual erotic activity. It's a rather common theme. The humiliation can add to sexual excitement.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_humiliation[/ame]


(Facts you are likely well aware of, but still.)

The factor that really matters here is CONSENT. As soon as people start regulating consensual activities it's all mostly arbitrary. People can argue to ban Max Hardcore, but similar arguments can be applied to ban everything from the Playstation or PC games to Shakespeare to key books by the most important Protestant reformer or even the Bible, as we've seen.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Sov said:

I understand that you are involved in making computer or video games? What do you think of games that glorify murder and violent crime?

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Actually, I make hobby and board games-- but since roleplaying games have historically been associated with violent crime and the occult, I'll go ahead and answer.

Games stimulate the pleasure and reward centers of the brain. This means that they function similarly to pornography-- all pornography-- in associating pleasure with the subject matters of the games. I am concerned with certain kinds of violence in video games, much as I am concerned with certain kinds of sex in pornography, but I am less concerned with violence in video games for two reasons: first, in most cases the pleasure associated with video games is less intense than that associated with sex, and second, there are much higher barriers to imitating the violent behavior depicted in video games than the sexual behavior depicted in pornography. For the most part, I am satisfied simply with keeping criminally or sadistically violent video games out of the hands of children, much as I am satisfied in keeping most pornography out of the hands of children and would only wish to see a relatively small portion banned. I can only name one video game, off the top of my head, that I would have seen banned-- though I'm sure there were more.

It's worth reminding everyone here that it's not sex I have a problem with. It is degradation, and especially the association of degradation with sex.

Sov said:

Despite the oftimes lighthearted connotations of the term "game" many game companies tout how "realistic" and "immersive" their productions are. They often include very graphic violence, depictions of blood, gore, and mutilation along with murder.

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Violence is something that adults should be acclimated to. My problem with video games is not violence, it is criminality and sadism. It should be noted that I enjoy the Grand Theft Auto games, but I wouldn't allow children to play them. A game that depicted sadistic murder as the goal and rewarded players for inflicting additional suffering would cross the line from a game I'd see restricted to adults and a game that I would think should be banned.

As a designer of roleplaying games, sex and violence are recurring themes in my work-- but I am careful to depict degradation and sadism only in the background, and only as the behavior of the players' enemies. I generally only play with and design for adults, but if I were playing with children or designing a game intended for them, I would also be more careful in my depiction of criminality.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

misterman said:

Getting between me and a porn movie is the same as getting between me and my wife.

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I would say that this statement perfectly encapsulates everything that is wrong with modern society, pornography, and you. Good day, sir.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Sov said:

Someone can feel humiliation (i.e., "OMG I'm a dirty naughty slut what would my mommy think!") during consensual erotic activity. It's a rather common theme. The humiliation can add to sexual excitement.

Erotic humiliation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


(Facts you are likely well aware of, but still.)

The factor that really matters here is CONSENT. As soon as people start regulating consensual activities it's all mostly arbitrary. People can argue to ban Max Hardcore, but similar arguments can be applied to ban everything from the Playstation or PC games to Shakespeare to key books by the most important Protestant reformer or even the Bible, as we've seen.

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Since I'm into BDSM and the like, I'm intimately familiar with it. But it's different. You don't REALLY think that you're scum, there's a whole other dynamic going on there.

But yes, consent is the key.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Korimyr the Rat said:

It's worth reminding everyone here that it's not sex I have a problem with. It is degradation, and especially the association of degradation with sex.

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And what YOU think is degrading and what others do are entirely different things. I enjoy being tied up, is that degrading? Some people think so. What about doggie style? Some people think that's degrading too. But what difference does it make? If someone enjoys it and/or enjoys watching it in porn, how in the bloody hell is that harming you or anyone else?

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

misterman said:

Suppose instead of watching a Max Hardcore film in our bedroom, my wife and I re-enacted one. Would that be obscene? Could be be hauled off to jail? What's the difference?

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It's a gray area. That's one problem with arbitrary standards such as "obscenity." Courts contradict one another as to what is illegal and what isn't. The Supreme Court can contradict itself within a few rulings or even in the same ruling.

By the most recent SCOTUS ruling merely possessing "obscene" material is not necessarily illegal, but producing or distributing it is. "Obscenity," as you know, is arbitrarily defined. Reminds me of how "I know it when I see it" was once actually used by a Supreme Court justice when asked about the definition of "hardcore" pornography.

Many lawyers would recommend that even if you are creating material for private and/or completely non-profit use, you abide by the draconian USC 2257 Record Keeping Requirements, the purpose of which is supposedly to ensure that minors are not involved in pornography. Under this you'd need to keep on file copies of the material, photo copies of your IDs, model release forms with signatures, a Custodian of Records and location where police could inspect the records during specified hours, etc. By some court rulings 2257 even applies to non-commercial material. There are middle aged swingers who recorded their parties and put the clips online who have been prosecuted on this basis. There are virtually no cases of pornographers who use prepubescents being prosecuted from this angle. (Actually, absolutely zero AFAIK.) As if they give a crap about following the law anyway. As if anyone says "Hey, I was going to have sex with my preteen daughter on camera, but damn, I don't have my paperwork in order so I better not!" These laws are an insult to people's intelligence.

Depending on area there can be state laws and local ordinances which prohibit the production of pornography within x miles from a school or church, within residential areas, etc.

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

rivrrat said:

And what YOU think is degrading and what others do are entirely different things. I enjoy being tied up, is that degrading? Some people think so. What about doggie style? Some people think that's degrading too. But what difference does it make? If someone enjoys it and/or enjoys watching it in porn, how in the bloody hell is that harming you or anyone else?

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A woman is degrading herself and an innocent child every time she breastfeeds a baby. She's having a child suck on her rock hard sweaty nipples! That's perverted. Only a seriously sick woman would engage in such behavior, especially now that baby bottles and formula are readily available.

They've got the problem, not me, never me!