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Marijuana legalization hearing tomorrow in California!

Dr_Patrick said:
It's not a lousy analogy because the arguments from people opposing guns and people opposing legalization of marijuana are similarly structured because in both cases they blame inanimate objects rather than the person using these things. The only reason you think the tobacco/marijuana analogy works better is because it goes along with your new desperate argument.
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It just seems like you're reaching that's all. The tobacco/marijuana comparison works much better because of a number of similarities of the substances; both are weeds, both are smoked, tobacco, like marijuana was once illegal....
 
winston53660 said:
What is the damage inflicted by keeping marijuana illegal? Does the benefit out way making it legal.

As far as I know I can pretty much get pot anytime I want to so keeping it illegal certianly does not affect supply.
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Dutch said:
Used as directed a firearm won't hurt anyone. Use marijuana as diredted and you will experience lung disease. I believe that's the difference.
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You will develop lung disease? this is a guarantee? A tad hyperbolic here are we not?

Regardless, I asked you to show how damaging marijuana is to society, and I thank you for your response to that, seems all you managed to provide in response was a potential for lung disease, which others have been kicking you around over for quite a few pages now it seems.

Was that the best you could do? sure smoking anything might be likely to induce lung complications, this totally overlooks that there are other delivery methods such as edible consumption, and vaporization that could be promoted and encouraged in a prohibition free environment.

And how is this potential to cause lung more sinister, and deleterious to society as say obesity caused by junk food? The health risks there are palpable and real as well.. if you are concerned with our health and how that effects society as a whole I think you need to expand your crusade.

Then again what if we considered that prohibition does nothing to mitigate the potential lung issues that may occur from marijuana smoking? This becomes a non issue when it comes to the legalization v. prohibition argument.

I could turn the argument around on you here and say that prohibition is putting more children at risk of exposure to lung disease before they are capable of making informed decisions. Instead we should be taking steps to encourage marijuana usage to be the sole providence of adults, who are quite capable and quite entitled to making decisions on what to do with their lives and their health all on their own.

All you have shown is a potential effect on an individual, you have done nothing to show effects on society here.
 
Dutch said:
Are they now? The effects of tabacco on our society and the individuals who use them are massive, enduring, and profounding insidious. As a society we are trying very hard to limit the effects of them by heavily taxing them and carrying on a 20 year campaign to encourage our children to not smoke, not to mention outright bans on where you can smoke the damn things. Just what sense does it make to encourage the use of yet another drug with similar or even worse effects on the human body?



source
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How is this a rebuttal to the argument that the effects of marijuana prohibition on society are a distinct entity independent of the effects of marijuana the drug?

btw.. I agree we need a campaign to encourage children not to use marijuana as well as continuing the campaign to encourage them not to smoke tobacco. Which is why we need to end prohibition, so we can take steps to insure it is not readily available to our kids, and also take proactive steps to make it unappealing to children, neither of which are occuring in any way shape or form under prohibition.

prohibition is encouraging children to use marijuana by making it effortless for them to get their hands on it, if we want to create an environment that minimizes exposure of children to marijuana, and a foundation for a legitimate campaign to lower marijuana usage among minors we need to first make some kind of attemp to get it out of their hands. Prohibition does NOT do that.
 
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EgoffTib said:
Exactly. I am a smoker. I understand the danger. I am still free to make a choice, and I have chosen to smoke. Let's also consider that Cannabis is much less dangerous than a cigarette ever will be.
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you just think you've chosen to smoke. wait until you try to quit, then you know choice doesn't have a lot to do with it anymore.
 
Dutch said:
It just seems like you're reaching that's all. The tobacco/marijuana comparison works much better because of a number of similarities of the substances; both are weeds, both are smoked, tobacco, like marijuana was once illegal....
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How am I reaching? The comparison I used was only to prove my point that both issues are similar in how the arguments from the opposition are structured because they are about people blaming inanimate objects rather than the people who abuse these things. And yet again you are being obtuse. My comparison had nothing to do with them as substances. Of course marijuana is in no way comparable to a gun as an object or substance. :doh

The only reason you are even going for this lung disease bs is because your previous arguments failed. If you really cared about the marijuana causing lung disease you would have brought it up a long time ago.
 
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Dutch said:
It's keeping the price higher than it would otherwise be which limits it's distribution among the populace.
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The use of cannabis in the face of high risk gives strength to the notion that the demand for cannabis is very inelastic. Translation: decreased supply does very little to the quantity demanded by the consumer of cannabis.
 
Dutch said:
Please list the benefits of greater amounts of marijuana on our streets. :)
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I don't know how to answer the question as posed. So I'll answer this question:

Are there any benefits from the legalization of marijuana?

I've opposed legalization for a long time, but have changed my mind. The Mexican drug cartels who profit from the production and distribution of marijuana in this country are a clear and present danger to all Americans. There are only two ways of eliminating the growth of cartel related crime, i. e., take the profit out of this through legalization, or adopt the approach used by the Chinese Communist Party in eliminating opium use in China. Since summary execution is out of the question legalization is the only approach that might be effective.
 
marduc said:
You will develop lung disease? this is a guarantee? A tad hyperbolic here are we not?

Regardless, I asked you to show how damaging marijuana is to society, and I thank you for your response to that, seems all you managed to provide in response was a potential for lung disease, which others have been kicking you around over for quite a few pages now it seems.

Was that the best you could do? sure smoking anything might be likely to induce lung complications, this totally overlooks that there are other delivery methods such as edible consumption, and vaporization that could be promoted and encouraged in a prohibition free environment.

And how is this potential to cause lung more sinister, and deleterious to society as say obesity caused by junk food? The health risks there are palpable and real as well.. if you are concerned with our health and how that effects society as a whole I think you need to expand your crusade.

Then again what if we considered that prohibition does nothing to mitigate the potential lung issues that may occur from marijuana smoking? This becomes a non issue when it comes to the legalization v. prohibition argument.

I could turn the argument around on you here and say that prohibition is putting more children at risk of exposure to lung disease before they are capable of making informed decisions. Instead we should be taking steps to encourage marijuana usage to be the sole providence of adults, who are quite capable and quite entitled to making decisions on what to do with their lives and their health all on their own.

All you have shown is a potential effect on an individual, you have done nothing to show effects on society here.
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Obstructive Lung Disease Costs America Billions

Related Health News

Society is made up of individuals. The costs to society of lung disease is staggering. If you want to make the cost of lung disease worse to our country.....legitimize the use of marijuana by making it legal.


source

MONDAY, May 22 (HealthDay News) -- Medical costs related to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) will near $833 billion in the United States over the next 20 years, according to a new analysis.

COPD results from persistent obstruction of the airways caused by severe emphysema or chronic bronchitis. It is the fourth leading cause of death in the United States and, in 2002, it claimed the lives of 120,000 Americans. An estimated 10.7 million adults in the United States have COPD, but there are many more undiagnosed cases, the study noted. Smoking is the primary risk factor for COPD, and about 80 percent to 90 percent of COPD deaths are caused by smoking.

The new study found that COPD-linked costs will top $176.6 billion over the next five years and $389.2 billion over the next 10 years, according to the mathematical model used in the study, part of the Burden of Obstructive Lung Disease (BOLD) initiative examining the prevalence and burden of COPD worldwide.

"As the prevalence of COPD continues to grow, the costs associated with the disease will continue to rise and are projected to consume a significant portion of the health-care budget over the next 20 years," lead researcher Todd Lee, a research assistant professor at Northwestern University in Chicago and Hines VA Hospital, said in a prepared statement........
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Dutch said:
Obstructive Lung Disease Costs America Billions

Related Health News

Society is made up of individuals. The costs to society of lung disease is staggering. If you want to make the cost of lung disease worse to our country.....legitimize the use of marijuana by making it legal.


source
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I don't think the increase of lung disease would be that significant. You act as if marijuana being legalized will somehow dramatically increase the amount that people smoke weed. Guess what? People a lot of weed right now. The law doesn't really stand in the way of people doing it. I fail to see how there would be that much of a difference if it were legal. But please, keep trying the lung disease angle. It's very easy to dismiss.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDKarCeC_Ic"]YouTube - Judge Testifies for Marijuana Legalization in California[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBEoptI9_Eg"]YouTube - California Marijuana Debate[/ame]
 
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Dr_Patrick said:
I don't think the increase of lung disease would be that significant. You act as if marijuana being legalized will somehow dramatically increase the amount that people smoke weed. Guess what? People a lot of weed right now. The law doesn't really stand in the way of people doing it. I fail to see how there would be that much of a difference if it were legal. But please, keep trying the lung disease angle. It's very easy to dismiss.
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Unless you have it.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
I don't know how to answer the question as posed. So I'll answer this question:

Are there any benefits from the legalization of marijuana?

I've opposed legalization for a long time, but have changed my mind. The Mexican drug cartels who profit from the production and distribution of marijuana in this country are a clear and present danger to all Americans. There are only two ways of eliminating the growth of cartel related crime, i. e., take the profit out of this through legalization, or adopt the approach used by the Chinese Communist Party in eliminating opium use in China. Since summary execution is out of the question legalization is the only approach that might be effective.
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Legalizing alcohol did not eliminate the mafia. The mexican drug cartels will still be with us either way.
 
Goldenboy219 said:
The use of cannabis in the face of high risk gives strength to the notion that the demand for cannabis is very inelastic. Translation: decreased supply does very little to the quantity demanded by the consumer of cannabis.
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The risks vary depending on the state you happen to be in. There are hundreds of shops selling marijuana openly in LA even as we speak.
 
Dutch said:
Unless you have it.
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:roll: I mean, it's easy to dismiss because it isn't just marijuana that causes it. Tobacco causes it and tobacco is legal. There's really no reason to not legalize marijuana in that case.

Kudos on avoiding the other points in my post, btw.
 
Dutch said:
Legalizing alcohol did not eliminate the mafia. The mexican drug cartels will still be with us either way.
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Yes they would, but it would hit them pretty hard considering that marijuana is a huge part of their business.
 
Dutch said:
Legalizing alcohol did not eliminate the mafia. The mexican drug cartels will still be with us either way.
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No it did not, but then again alcohol wasn't their only racket.

The amount of violence and costs of legal process and incarceration associated with illegal booze was greatly curtailed.
 
Dutch said:
Obstructive Lung Disease Costs America Billions

Related Health News

Society is made up of individuals. The costs to society of lung disease is staggering. If you want to make the cost of lung disease worse to our country.....legitimize the use of marijuana by making it legal.


source
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Do you have any idea how much law enforcement operations, the legal process, and incarceration costs America? People already smoke pot, you've offered no evidence that legalization will increase the instances of Obstructive Lung Disease beyond their current numbers. What we do know is that less money will be spent pursuing and arresting marijuana offenders, less money will be spent trying them, and less money will be spent incarcerating them.

And it will be much easier for some sick people to get the relief that marijuana offers for their ailments.
 
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Dutch said:
Obstructive Lung Disease Costs America Billions

Related Health News

Society is made up of individuals. The costs to society of lung disease is staggering. If you want to make the cost of lung disease worse to our country.....legitimize the use of marijuana by making it legal.


source
Click to expand...

Although it is an almost certainty that the term smokers in your article is referring to tobacco smokers, lets dismiss that and for the sake of argument say that each and every one of those cases where the term "smokers" is used is a reference to marijuana smokers, and that 80-90% of the COPD cases were a direct result of marijuana smoking.

How does prohibition effect the rate of occurrence of COPD?

You already tried to sidestep the issue with an appeal to emotion - "unless you have it" - , but it needs addressed, your argument hinges on demonstrating that prohibition has a substantial negative impact on the rate of consumption of marijuana via smoking, and as a result is keeping the rate of COPD down.
 
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Dutch said:
No thanks. I'm a teacher.
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That, is truly frightening.

Dutch said:
Even dopers realize you need higher standards for those around their little ones
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I expect teachers to have some modicum of intelligence.
 
Dutch said:
I'm only blaming the plant for the damage it does to one's lungs when smoked, not the problems of the world.
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Yea, well, they're my lungs, last time I checked. I certainly don't want you telling me what I can do to them, my lungs, that is...
 
Dutch said:
The risks vary depending on the state you happen to be in. There are hundreds of shops selling marijuana openly in LA even as we speak.
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What does variance of risk and a relatively low risk outlet for medical patients in Ca. have to do with Goldenboy219's assertion that continued use in the face of high risk shows it is inelastic?
 
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Dutch said:
Tobacco should be illegal as well. If used as directed....it will amost certainly kill you.
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Basically, anything that is dangerous should be illegal.
 
marduc said:
How is this a rebuttal to the argument that the effects of marijuana prohibition on society are a distinct entity independent of the effects of marijuana the drug?

btw.. I agree we need a campaign to encourage children not to use marijuana as well as continuing the campaign to encourage them not to smoke tobacco. Which is why we need to end prohibition, so we can take steps to insure it is not readily available to our kids, and also take proactive steps to make it unappealing to children, neither of which are occuring in any way shape or form under prohibition.

prohibition is encouraging children to use marijuana by making it effortless for them to get their hands on it, if we want to create an environment that minimizes exposure of children to marijuana, and a foundation for a legitimate campaign to lower marijuana usage among minors we need to first make some kind of attemp to get it out of their hands. Prohibition does NOT do that.
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When I was a minor the hardest substance for me to acquire was alcohol. Marijuana, on the other hand, was readily available to me from the day I learned how to ask for it.

Prohibition puts drugs into the hands of children. I find it disturbing that a teacher would be in favor of such a thing...
 
scourge99 said:
Why are you so against people making their own choices?

The warnings for smoking, drinking, driving, eating fastfood, and even using a hair dryer in the shower are stated plainly.

Why do you feel compelled to legislate what people can and can't do when it doesn't violate your rights directly or indirectly?
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In thomas hobb's social contract theory people give up some freedom's to government in order to affect order. We call this order, law. You just happen to have the good luck/bad luck to be a part of a society that decided to outlaw the use of a number of drugs, marijuana among them. Here is a partial list of countries and the legality of canabis use in them. You will note many but not all allow it. Just be glad you're not bulgarian. :wink2:
 
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