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Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

Truth Detector said:
Your desperate assertions are the definition of irony; please share with me where Democrats have been more fiscally responsible? I await a credible and coherent answer with this FACT: The only Congress, which is the ONLY entity which has the power to spend taxpayer money that has had a surplus in the last 50 years, has been a Republican one.

Here is another FACT: Since the Democrats took over the power of the purse, the deficit has gone from under $300 billion to over $1.8 trillion. Please explain to me how this is fiscally responsible.

Now either you completely fail to comprehend the definition of fiscally responsible, or you are just entering into hyper partisan hyperbolic blather in a desperate effort to defend your party for purely hyper partisan purposes that have NOTHING to do with the facts; which is it?
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Srsly? Go back, links posted.
 
Truth Detector said:
Okay, it is lost on me, what was the specific point you were addressing from my comments to Zyph?
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It was:

So here is your REALITY check and the bottom line; the worst deficit during the Republican controlled Congress was $200 billion.
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I demonstrated that this is not true. You yourself demonstrate it is not true.
 
jackalope said:
Srsly? Go back, links posted.
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Srsly.... please explain how the democrats are not to blame for the hugh deficit spending as they have had control of spending since 2006.

thanx
 
jackalope said:
Honestly, I don't know what you're reading. You're just making chit up and throwing it around, right?
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I WAS reading:
So YES fy09 is ABSOLUTELY Bush's fault, and much of fy10 will be too!

The Republicans have EVERYTHING to do with it.
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Note that YOU included the caps in your original posts.

NOW, I am reading:
Bush FURTHER will be responsible for much of the deficits for years to come.
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This is a change in your position, one you made only after I took you task, and thus were shamed into making.

But, that's what happens when you start with "I hate Bush" and work backwards, hoping that you can spew your intellectually dshonest, bigoted, partisan chit and not get caught.
 
Crunch said:
Srsly.... please explain how the democrats are not to blame for the hugh deficit spending as they have had control of spending since 2006.

thanx
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Already done - more tha n once. Is this thread really a civics lesson?
Pres submits his budget. Unless opposition party controls a veto-proof majority, budget agenda is the presidents. Newt Gingrich tried to change this phenomenon and actually shut down gov't. BIG backfire.
 
Goobieman said:
I WAS reading:

Note that YOU included the caps in your original posts.

NOW, I am reading:

This is a change in your position, one you made only after I took you task, and thus were shamed into making.

But, that's what happens when you start with "I hate Bush" and work backwards, hoping that you can spew your intellectually dshonest, bigoted, partisan chit and not get caught.
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Goobie --

BUSH IS ABSOLUTELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FY09 BUDGET.
And the fy 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07 and 08 ones too !


AND, Bush will be responsible for MUCH of the red ink in years to come. Get used to it, you will keep hearing it.

Republicans have not EVER demonstrated fiscal responsibility. They have never decreased spending, not when they had the WH and submitted budgets, and not when they had the WH, House, and Senate and controlled all three.

They have consistently increased spending - faster than Dems - AND cut taxes at the same time. They are the height of irresponsibility.
 
jackalope said:
Goobie --
BUSH IS ABSOLUTELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FY09 BUDGET.
And the fy 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07 and 08 ones too !
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Ah. Back to the intellectually dishonest partisan bigotry.

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water...
 
jackalope said:
AND, Bush will be responsible for MUCH of the red ink in years to come. Get used to it, you will keep hearing it.
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Bush is responsible for nothing the Democrats choose to do, which includes continuing any Bush policies. They've got the ball, completely, utterly, entirely.

All spending, and every line item of every budget, is a choice made at the time.

And them's the facts.
 
jackalope said:
Already done - more tha n once. Is this thread really a civics lesson?
Pres submits his budget. Unless opposition party controls a veto-proof majority, budget agenda is the presidents. Newt Gingrich tried to change this phenomenon and actually shut down gov't. BIG backfire.
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And of course the congress NEVER adds any earmarks to the budget the President submits.... got it.

But you are still wrong, look at the constitution..... congress controls the money, period, exclamation point, arrows, circles, and a diagram on the back of each one.... it's congress that controls the money, got it?
 
Harshaw said:
Bush is responsible for nothing the Democrats choose to do, which includes continuing any Bush policies. They've got the ball, completely, utterly, entirely.

All spending, and every line item of every budget, is a choice made at the time.

And them's the facts.
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This is an excellent demonstration of a fundamental problem with modern liberals and (especially) Democrats: Facts are an anathema
 
Goobieman said:
Ah. Back to the intellectually dishonest partisan bigotry.

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water...
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Harshaw said:
Bush is responsible for nothing the Democrats choose to do, which includes continuing any Bush policies. They've got the ball, completely, utterly, entirely.

All spending, and every line item of every budget, is a choice made at the time.

And them's the facts.
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Crunch said:
And of course the congress NEVER adds any earmarks to the budget the President submits.... got it.

But you are still wrong, look at the constitution..... congress controls the money, period, exclamation point, arrows, circles, and a diagram on the back of each one.... it's congress that controls the money, got it?
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Crunch, Harshaw, and Goobie, you are flinging accusations, but no facts.
Demonstrate what part of the CBO numbers are false, what part Bush is *NOT* responsible for ...

And Crunch, srsly, earmarks are not the reason we are bleeding red ink.


Harshaw, you are wrong. Structural changes made by Bush will continue for years .... and Republicans are fighting even now to keep them in place. Specifically, his tax cuts for the rich. Also, obligations from his war continue now, and will for decades with veterans health and more. Not to mention having to replace all assets used up in his war.
 
Goobieman said:
This is an excellent demonstration of a fundamental problem with modern liberals and (especially) Democrats: Facts are an anathema
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Funny stuff. GOPers have mastered the one-liner and the detractions, but do not offer support for arguments. Once again, demonstrate errors in CBO numbers. Show where GOPers paid for Medicare Part D, paid for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Show where deficits improved as a result of Reagan's or Bush's elit-O-nomics voodoo tax cuts?

:roll:
 
jackalope said:
Crunch, Harshaw, and Goobie, you are flinging accusations, but no facts.
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On the contrary -- I quoted your statements, which are more than enough facts to make the point that I did.

Demonstrate what part of the CBO numbers are false, what part Bush is *NOT* responsible for.
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Obviously, the FACT that the budgets were passed by congress, and that congress MUST then bear SOME of the responsibility for the deficits, past fpresent and future, goes right past you -- but then, as Congress is/was controlled by the Democrats, that's not a surprise.

Its sad that you're -so- willing to sell your integrity in order to gain/retain as personal and/or partisan policital power as you can.
 
Goobieman said:
On the contrary -- I quoted your statements, which are more than enough facts to make the point that I did.


Obviously, the FACT that the budgets were passed by congress, and that congress MUST then bear SOME of the responsibility for the deficits, past fpresent and future, goes right past you -- but then, as Congress is/was controlled by the Democrats, that's not a surprise.

Its sad that you're -so- willing to sell your integrity in order to gain/retain as personal and/or partisan policital power as you can.
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So, in other words, you got nothing?

That's what I thought. I give historical data and budget analyses, you say the Democrats must be responsible....

Sorry, history speaks. Modern Republicanism has never offered a period of fiscal responsibility. Our budget and economic health were worse off after Reagan-Bush ... and worse again after Bush-the-shrub.
 
jackalope said:
So, in other words, you got nothing?
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On the contrary -- I quoted your statements, which are more than enough facts to make the point that I did, that you're -so- willing to sell your integrity in order to gain/retain as personal and/or partisan policital power as you can.

That's what I thought. I give historical data and budget analyses, you say the Democrats must be responsible.
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LII: Constitution
Read it. It describes how bills are created and then passed into law.
Sorry -- history speaks.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
It looks as if the town hall protesters are having an impact. This bill seems to be dying a good death, slowly but surely...

We can not afford it, and we can not pay for it.

Even if Obama gets his way and raises the "Debt ceiling"


Senate must raise debt ceiling above $12T - TheHill.com
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Back to the point of the thread .... I just read an article by Marc Ambinder predicting passage (Ambers is a conservative, btw):

How Obama Survived August

At the beginning of the month, I predicted that August might turn out be a bloodbath for Democrats. At the time, the Democratic self-containment on health care had dissolved, cranks were taking over constituent meetings, and that real anxiety about Obama had found a channel and political opponents of health care had an edge. And it was a bloodbath. No question: the White House was taken aback by the ferocity of the health care debate, the media was confused, activists were alarmed, and Republican enthusiasm shot up. But a funny thing happened on the way to the morgue...

The worst thing that could have happened to Democrats -- and the one thing that needed to happen in order to kill health reform -- did not happen. The Democrats held together. Moderates were not intimidated. Don't confuse their constituent meeting pander with changed minds.

... After August, under the worst case scenario, there is majority support for the following major changes to health care: real (albeit limited) competition in the insurance industry (even absent a public plan). A cap on what a person pays for catastrophic illnesses. An end to insurance company recision policies. Guaranteed issue. A basic benefit package. Significant subsidies to help people who earn as much as $64,000 a year pay for health insurance. Better cost and coverage incentives. And lots more. Say what you will about these reforms -- maybe they're incremental -- but they're a foundation for center-left policy in the future.

After August, conservatives have exhausted their repertoire of arguments and many of their demagogic tricks. Public support for significant health care reform as something worth doing remains high. Support for Obama's plan remains unchanged -- didn't grow, certainly, but didn't decline. Support among Democrats remains at 90%. Obama's message tomorrow night will be one that dovetails with what the American people believe: it's important to get health care reform done. How will Republicans respond to his speech? Rep. Charles Boustany (R-LA) can trot out familiar arguments about the Republican's "plan," which is in scare quotes because it was written solely to have something to show people who asked what the Republican plan was. (If Republicans had written a serious plan, one that recognized the reality of a Democratic Congress, then I'd drop the scare quotes.)

After August, Democrats have the momentum to pass the bill....

more ...
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If we don't pass a public option or single payer, we are all screwed. I'm tired of being governed by the big corporations. The majority of Americans want this and those who are against it are against their own best interests. Those countries in the world with this sort of system do very well. I'm curious when our senators are going to stop taking bribes and actually vote for what is best for our nation as a whole.
 
Jackolope,

Good find!

Still, as I posted earlier to this thread (see post #16), I think H.R. 3200 will get scaled down. This memo from Sen. Max Baucus, Chairman, Senate Finance Committe, pretty much confirms that. It merely summarizes what the SFC have previously proposed in the "Policy Option". I wouldn't be surprised if aspects of the "Policy Option" and H.R. 3200 are combined to make up the final health care reform bill.
 
formerroadie said:
If we don't pass a public option or single payer, we are all screwed. I'm tired of being governed by the big corporations.
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What a fascinatingly uninformed statement; you are tired of the "perception" that big corporations somehow govern you, which they can't, but okay being governed by political operatives who lie to get elected; stunning.

formerroadie said:
The majority of Americans want this and those who are against it are against their own best interests.
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This is a lie; if it were true, the Democrats who have publicly stated that they no longer support the bill based on their constituents would be voting FOR the bill.

formerroadie said:
Those countries in the world with this sort of system do very well.
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Another lie made in a vacuum of reality or the facts; those nations that have these welfare systems have historically had much higher unemployment, much higher taxes, much higher costs of goods and services and historically much lower GDP.

Most nations in the EU are struggling with the burden of their social welfare systems and are desperately seeking to re-structure them in an effort to stem the burden of having to raise taxes even higher to continue paying for their largess.

formerroadie said:
I'm curious when our senators are going to stop taking bribes and actually vote for what is best for our nation as a whole.
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No facts here, just a nonsensical statement unsupported by facts or reality.

It certainly begs the question why Liberals have to lie and distort facts in order to make a case for the desperate desire to become wards of the State. I honestly doubt that anyone can make a rational argument for such denial.

:roll:
 
Truth Detector said:
The real news here is the debt ceiling has reached $12 trillion dollars.

When are the American people going to wake up and say enough of this insanity from the Democrats?

:doh
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Democrats? How about enough insanity from from both parties? Last time I checked, George W. Bush pushed for a bailout, but maybe that slipped your mind.
 
Truth Detector said:
Because Bush pushed for it makes it right? :doh
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Is that what I said? Bush was the Republican President and pushed for a bailout. Now you are up in arms because Democrats want to raise the deficit? How about you cut the partisan nonsense and realize that it's not just Democrats making stupid decisions in government?
 
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