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Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

ReverendHellh0und

ReverendHellh0und

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Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ?no? on healthcare reform - TheHill.com

At least 23 House Democrats already have told constituents or hometown media that they oppose the massive healthcare overhaul touted by President Barack Obama.

If Republicans offer the blanket opposition they’ve promised, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) can afford to lose only 38 members of her 256-member caucus and still pass the bill.



Most Democrats opposed to healthcare reform argue it costs too much, imposes a new tax and fines businesses that don’t provide insurance to employees. Some fear that the bill would subsidize abortion.
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It looks as if the town hall protesters are having an impact. This bill seems to be dying a good death, slowly but surely...

We can not afford it, and we can not pay for it.

Even if Obama gets his way and raises the "Debt ceiling"


Senate must raise debt ceiling above $12T - TheHill.com
 
The real news here is the debt ceiling has reached $12 trillion dollars.

When are the American people going to wake up and say enough of this insanity from the Democrats?

:doh
 
Truth Detector said:
The real news here is the debt ceiling has reached $12 trillion dollars.

When are the American people going to wake up and say enough of this insanity from the Democrats?

:doh
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It took them 2 election cycles to wake up and say enough of this insanity from the Republicans, so I have my doubts that it'll be any sooner with Democrats. However, as outragously unfiscally sound, over the top, and irresponsable the Republicans were the past 8 years the Democrats have attempted to one up them recently, so maybe it'll go faster. I have my doubts though.
 
pelosi/obama are asking for way too much when they expect these poor freshmen from districts that voted for mccain and bluedogs across the country to stick their necks out for a public option that has no chance in upper house

this is a big part of what's going on

we're not gonna expose ourselves for that which has no chance upstairs

and, yes, absolutely, the face of america, as seen in hundreds of townhalls, is dominating this entire debate

when's the last time you heard the word "astroturf?"
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
It looks as if the town hall protesters are having an impact. This bill seems to be dying a good death, slowly but surely...

We can not afford it, and we can not pay for it.

Even if Obama gets his way and raises the "Debt ceiling"


Senate must raise debt ceiling above $12T - TheHill.com
Click to expand...



It will pass, Rev. But the margin will be with no room to spare.

Question re: The Hill. I would have thought that would have to be posted in Blogs rather than MSM b/c it's primary means of distribution is electronic. I am asking sincerely, b/c I was just reading the guidelines when trying to figure out where to post Roll Call. I ended up posting a Roll Call, Politico, and TPM article, so I went to Blogs even tho none are actually blogs. Does the Hill count as MSM, or blogs, for BN requirements. TIA ~~
 
Moderator's Warning:
Moved to appropriate *Breaking News* section
 
Zyphlin said:
It took them 2 election cycles to wake up and say enough of this insanity from the Republicans, so I have my doubts that it'll be any sooner with Democrats. However, as outragously unfiscally sound, over the top, and irresponsable the Republicans were the past 8 years the Democrats have attempted to one up them recently, so maybe it'll go faster. I have my doubts though.
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As a once famous Republican President once said; "there you go again."

I find your over the top gross exaggerations of the Bush Presidency and Republicans fascinating in light of the current environment. You sound more like a hysterical emotional Librul when you make such farcical claims about the Bush Administration in a debate about the current one.

But once again, much like a Librul, you want to play the "Bush" card as if it had even the remotest relevance to what is occurring now.

Bush had to contend with 9-11, a HUGE disaster, two wars of which were complete BI-PARTISAN Congressional support for with vast public support and a major natural disaster on a major American City.

Now I know it is fun to pretend 9-11 never happened and to fabricate the nonsensical notion that the wars were by choice and based on lies and they were poorly managed; but that is just hyperbolic baloney.

The Republicans did push some agendas I was in disagreement with, but they were the beloved realm of bi-partisan cooperation you and Libruls so desperately rail about.

So here is your REALITY check and the bottom line; the worst deficit during the Republican controlled Congress was $200 billion. A Republican led congress I would add that was the first in over five decades to actually balance a budget. So your farcical rhetoric aside, how can anyone compare what happened during the Republican held Congress to what we are now seeing; $12 trillion in debt and deficits projected at $10 trillion over the next ten years with NO end in sight?

:roll:
 
People are waking up. Alot of them realize they've been asleep for a long time.
 
jackalope said:
It will pass, Rev. But the margin will be with no room to spare.
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On this, you are probably correct. It will be interesting to watch and any Republican who supports it most likely will not see re-election in their districts.
 
Truth Detector said:
On this, you are probably correct. It will be interesting to watch and any Republican who supports it most likely will not see re-election in their districts.
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I hope it does pass. It will only be that much more insurance of the Dems getting their asses voted out.
 
Truth Detector said:
librul
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Sorry, my times not worth being taken up with people who act like children. You want to have a reasonable adult conversation without idiotic school yard nicknames, be my guest to repost your thoughts and act like an adult. If you want to continue acting like a child go find someone else to give wet willies to, grown ups are talking.
 
Truth Detector said:
As a once famous Republican President once said; "there you go again."

I find your over the top gross exaggerations of the Bush Presidency and Republicans fascinating in light of the current environment. You sound more like a hysterical emotional Librul when you make such farcical claims about the Bush Administration in a debate about the current one.

But once again, much like a Librul, you want to play the "Bush" card as if it had even the remotest relevance to what is occurring now.

Bush had to contend with 9-11, a HUGE disaster, two wars of which were complete BI-PARTISAN Congressional support for with vast public support and a major natural disaster on a major American City.

Now I know it is fun to pretend 9-11 never happened and to fabricate the nonsensical notion that the wars were by choice and based on lies and they were poorly managed; but that is just hyperbolic baloney.

The Republicans did push some agendas I was in disagreement with, but they were the beloved realm of bi-partisan cooperation you and Libruls so desperately rail about.

So here is your REALITY check and the bottom line; the worst deficit during the Republican controlled Congress was $200 billion. A Republican led congress I would add that was the first in over five decades to actually balance a budget. So your farcical rhetoric aside, how can anyone compare what happened during the Republican held Congress to what we are now seeing; $12 trillion in debt and deficits projected at $10 trillion over the next ten years with NO end in sight?

:roll:
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The Federal budget doubled during the Bush years, and the the actual deficit was in excess of $300 bn in at least three years before the Democrat takeover.
 
Deficits in the interest of national security are one thing, deficits to run Robin Hood wealth redistribution are quite another.
 
i think a better prediction than "it will pass" is "it will not be brought to the floor"

but none of us knows

wed nite will reveal much

look for "trigger" talk

if so, they gotta go back to committee

there is an oct 15 deadline for doing reconciliation in the senate

that is, after 10-15, they need 60 senators

not that they'd ever actually go the schumer route, anyway

mere academics
 
The public upswell does remind me a bit of the ill fated Kennedy-McCain-Bush immigration plan that ended up failing. Its not quite as uproarious, and not as many on both sides screaming about it, but its seeming to have similar effects. I'm not sure if it'll be enough not to get it through the house, but if it goes through there's no way its going to be played as something resoundly supported by a large majority of Americans but a bitter, wedge issue piece of legislation forced on many.
 
apdst said:
People are waking up. Alot of them realize they've been asleep for a long time.
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What does that say about the past Administration if people are just now waking up? Pick your words very carefully here.

As to the health care reform bill (H.R. 3200), I think it will get revised along the following lines:

  • The government public option will be replaced with a state-based public option health insurance exchange (HIE).
  • Medicare will likely end within the next 10 years. Future retirees will be shifted either onto private health care plans or a plan within the state-based HIE.
  • Medicaid will be expanded to cover more individuals and families who meet extended federal poverty level guidelines.

I suspect all other aspects of H.R. 3200, i.e., changes in tax codes, eliminating exclusion on pre-existing conditions, focus on prevention, fee scales, etc., etc., will remain part of whatever revised health care bill that comes up including the recommendation for an advisory board only it will be run either within the Dept. of Health and Human Services or a similar board will be mandated to be established within the states. The price tag for health care reform will go down at the government level, but the states will now be picking up a larger portion of the tab. I suspect that the fed will continue to pay matching funds to Medicaid as is currently the case, and the new state-based HIE (if it comes to this compromise) will likely receive health care "credits" to help offset the cost to the states initially. But gradually, individuals and their employers will start paying more towards health care plans in the HIEs just as the employed whose salaries can afford it currently do with your employer pays half and the employee paying the other half.

That's my guess anyway, but either way their will be a "public option" and the government will be involved in health care reform, only most of the responsibility will not be on the states and not the fed.
 
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Objective Voice said:
What does that say about the past Administration if people are just now waking up? Pick your words very carefully here.
Click to expand...

Alotta people haven't been paying attention, for a long time.
 
apdst said:
I hope it does pass. It will only be that much more insurance of the Dems getting their asses voted out.
Click to expand...

Trust me apdst, regardless of the political ramifications; we do NOT want them to pass this bill in any form. Once an entitlement is passed, they are forever and this bill will sink the economy in my opinion.

This bill needs to die in committee or on the floor of the Senate and then perhaps we can begin anew with REAL reform with REAL bi-partisan support.

:2wave:
 
Truth Detector said:
Trust me apdst, regardless of the political ramifications; we do NOT want them to pass this bill in any form. Once an entitlement is passed, they are forever and this bill will sink the economy in my opinion.

This bill needs to die in committee or on the floor of the Senate and then perhaps we can begin anew with REAL reform with REAL bi-partisan support.

:2wave:
Click to expand...

It won't take affect until 2013, so the Republicans will have time to repeal it.
 
Objective Voice said:
What does that say about the past Administration if people are just now waking up? Pick your words very carefully here.
Click to expand...

What does it say OV?

Objective Voice said:
As to the health care reform bill (H.R. 3200), I think it will get revised along the following lines:

  • The government public option will be replaced with a state-based public option health insurance exchange (HIE).
Click to expand...


  • Same person, different clothes; this is the SAME thing but instead of burying the Fed in more red ink, it will bury the States in more red ink and massive budget deficits beyond where they are right now.

    Objective Voice said:
    [*]Medicare will likely end within the next 10 years. Future retirees will be shifted either onto private health care plans or a plan within the state-based HIE.
    Click to expand...

    I will take bets on this one; no one in politics has the political courage to touch this one.

    Objective Voice said:
    [*]Medicaid will be expanded to cover more individuals and families who meet extended federal poverty level guidelines.
    Click to expand...

Again, no difference here except that the burden will once again be born by States and in many instances, those BIG states are already wallowing in fiscal crisis.

Objective Voice said:
I suspect all other aspects of H.R. 3200, i.e., changes in tax codes, eliminating exclusion on pre-existing conditions, focus on prevention, fee scales, etc., etc., will remain part of whatever revised health care bill that comes up including the recommendation for an advisory board only it will be run either within the Dept. of Health and Human Services or a similar board will be mandated to be established within the states.
Click to expand...

Another of a long list of bad ideas.

Objective Voice said:
The price tag for health care reform will go down at the government level, but the states will now be picking up a larger portion of the tab. I suspect that the fed will continue to pay matching funds to Medicaid as is currently the case, and the new state-based HIE (if it comes to this compromise) will likely receive health care "credits" to help offset the cost to the states initially.
Click to expand...

This once again fits the same analogy of the idiotic idea of a Federal "economic stimulus" plan that takes water from one side of the lake and dumps into the other side proclaiming one is actually filling the lake up.

This shifting will be a worse disaster than the original idiotic idea of the Feds running healthcare.

Objective Voice said:
But gradually, individuals and their employers will start paying more towards health care plans in the HIEs just as the employed whose salaries can afford it currently do with your employer pays half and the employee paying the other half.

That's my guess anyway, but either way their will be a "public option" and the government will be involved in health care reform, only most of the responsibility will not be on the states and not the fed.
Click to expand...

Where would it be if the Government interjects itself at this level into healthcare?

I can guarantee you this; with government involvement there will be a MUCH higher cost to EVERYONE, it will have a serious negative impact on economic activity and it will lead to LONG waiting lists, LESS choice and a lack of care if it comes to highly specialized operations and care.

It is a BAD idea no matter how much anyone who supports this asinine idea spins it.
 
Zyphlin said:
Sorry, my times not worth being taken up with people who act like children. You want to have a reasonable adult conversation without idiotic school yard nicknames, be my guest to repost your thoughts and act like an adult. If you want to continue acting like a child go find someone else to give wet willies to, grown ups are talking.
Click to expand...

Let me summarize this for you; "bawah, bawah, “hyper partisan,” bawah bawah, “childishness,” bawah bawah."

NOTHING you would have to add to the conversation would add anything other than more whiney diatribes. It is obvious that you have this idiotic notion about "hyper partisans" and when you debate, it becomes a whiney personal diatribe much like the Libruls infesting this forum do who incessantly whine about Republicans and the previous administration; it’s OLD, its tiresome and adds ZERO to any debate.

No need for me to worry about more of your whiney assessments of the previous administration, Republicans or what I mean when I type "librul."

How ironic that you should suggest that my comments would be childlike compared to your tireless child like whining.

Carry on. :rofl
 
Harshaw said:
The Federal budget doubled during the Bush years, and the the actual deficit was in excess of $300 bn in at least three years before the Democrat takeover.
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The actual deficit when the Republican left office as published by the OMB was $248 billion revised from previous estimates that were lower and had dropped to $160 billion in 2007 the first full year of Democrat rule. In 2008 it climbed to $458 billion and in 2009 it is currently estimated to go to $1.8 trillion.

But again it begs the question; how is this even remotely relevant to a debate about the current administrations efforts to sink this nation into a vast sea of red ink.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2010/assets/hist01z1.xls

It is almost as absurd as Zyphs whiney attempts to suggest that these moronic Democrats are no different than the previous Republicans.

Tell me something, how does tripling the Federal deficit and burying this nation in a sea of debt have ANYTHING to do with what the Republicans did for the 12 short years they controlled congress?

How does the asinine irresponsible spending with no debate about how they will pay for it all compare to anything the Republicans did dealing with 9-11, two wars and a major natural disaster; here let me help you with the answer to that: NOTHING!

Good lord, watching people constantly point at Republicans in a debate about the current mess we are in is beyond stupid.
 
Voidwar said:
Deficits in the interest of national security are one thing, deficits to run Robin Hood wealth redistribution are quite another.
Click to expand...

Someone who REALLY gets it. You are a refreshing breath of fresh air! :2wave:
 
Zyphlin said:
The public upswell does remind me a bit of the ill fated Kennedy-McCain-Bush immigration plan that ended up failing. Its not quite as uproarious, and not as many on both sides screaming about it, but its seeming to have similar effects. I'm not sure if it'll be enough not to get it through the house, but if it goes through there's no way its going to be played as something resoundly supported by a large majority of Americans but a bitter, wedge issue piece of legislation forced on many.
Click to expand...

You are correct; and it has become a bitter wedge issue thanks to the bitter divisive politics of the Democrats who now with all the political power wish to force their liberal political agenda down the throats of Americans that they have been desirous of for decades by denigrating their political opponents in the court of public opinion with their continued offensive hyperbolic diatribe.

Once again; this is NOT a Republican issue, they do not need one single Republican vote to pass this leftist agenda.

Hugo Chavez would be proud of Obama and the Democrats and their methodology.
 
Truth Detector said:
The actual deficit when the Republican left office as published by the OMB was $248 billion revised from previous estimates that were lower and had dropped to $160 billion in 2007 the first full year of Democrat rule. In 2008 it climbed to $458 billion and in 2009 it is currently estimated to go to $1.8 trillion.

But again it begs the question; how is this even remotely relevant to a debate about the current administrations efforts to sink this nation into a vast sea of red ink.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2010/assets/hist01z1.xls

It is almost as absurd as Zyphs whiney attempts to suggest that these moronic Democrats are no different than the previous Republicans.

Tell me something, how does tripling the Federal deficit and burying this nation in a sea of debt have ANYTHING to do with what the Republicans did for the 12 short years they controlled congress?

How does the asinine irresponsible spending with no debate about how they will pay for it all compare to anything the Republicans did dealing with 9-11, two wars and a major natural disaster; here let me help you with the answer to that: NOTHING!

Good lord, watching people constantly point at Republicans in a debate about the current mess we are in is beyond stupid.
Click to expand...


Budget deficits since 2000 - not offsetting against social security.
The Republicans have EVERYTHING to do with it. They should NEVER be allowed to control the purse strings again:

2000 +86.4
2001 -32.4
2002 -317.4
2003 -538.4
2004 -568.0
2005 -493.6
2006 -434.5
2007 -342.2
2008 -638.1

http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10014/March2009_HistoricalTables.pdf


graphic8.gif

Congressional Budget Office - Budget Projections
 
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