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CIA enhanced interigation docs released. Cheney responds

I would rather die in a terrorist bombing attack than torture an individual which is against the law.

Well said from someone's idea if real danger is jay walking. Only a dumb kid, who don't know **** from shinola would say something like that.

Ya know, I don't mean to be such a smartass, but you can't place your moral tone above the lives of other Americans.
 
There is in upholding ones ideals, integrity, and resolve though.




"There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it and some could not speak and they held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord's orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left. Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the battle, rode up to the group of young knights and said: 'Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For a battle is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose."
Froissart’s Chronicles, 14th century
 
I would rather die in a terrorist bombing attack than torture an individual which is against the law. Sorry folks but some things are worth dying for. One of those things are the integrity, honor and principles of our nation. To lie and beat around the bush (no pun intended) is to spit on the graves of every soldier that has died in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. They go to fight for the ideals of this nation and then the people back here are going about doing things they know are illegal and frankly beneath us. You can try to justify it all you want, but there is no way that will ever be properly moral or ethical.

You sound just like those clowns that talk about the, "glory of battle". You probably hate people like that, but can't understand how much you resemble them.
 
"There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it and some could not speak and they held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord's orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left. Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the battle, rode up to the group of young knights and said: 'Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For a battle is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose."
Froissart’s Chronicles, 14th century

It's tough explaining things to a cherry.
 
You sound just like those clowns that talk about the, "glory of battle". You probably hate people like that, but can't understand how much you resemble them.

Nope, there is no glory in war and the two circumstances are completely different. Give me a break.
 
Well said from someone's idea if real danger is jay walking. Only a dumb kid, who don't know **** from shinola would say something like that.

Ya know, I don't mean to be such a smartass, but you can't place your moral tone above the lives of other Americans.

Actually, I can and do. If we do not have ideals and morals, we have nothing of value. If we did not have people wining to place their morals ahead of their personal safety, we would not have an armed force to defend our country.
 
"There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it and some could not speak and they held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord's orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left. Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the battle, rode up to the group of young knights and said: 'Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For a battle is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose."
Froissart’s Chronicles, 14th century

I'm not looking to look away or lose a war. I'll observe all with eyes unclouded by hate. The point is that if we lose ourselves in the battle, it doesn't matter. If we abandon our base, our ideals, it's over. Terrorists win. If we become enslaved to a larger and ever intrusive government which grew bloated on the excuses of terrorism and home safety we've lost. If our freedom and liberty are suppressed and usurped, we've lost. People want to look at this as though it's a one way street. You're with us or you're against us sort of thing. That's dumb "logic" (lack thereof). Let's get the terrorists! Without forethought to what it is that we're doing, why we're doing it, and how it's going to get us to a solution. Fight fight fight. But a blind fight, a fight which goes against the foundations of our Republic is not a fight worth fighting. Even if we win, we lose.

As to the torture stuff which spawned all this. All I said was own up to what you want to do. Other people made the dumb and intellectually devoid comments that saying that means I want people to die. I don't want people to die, it's why I am against the Iraq war. But I want people to man up and call a spade a spade. Quit hiding behind semantics and words so that you don't feel so bad about what you want to do. Be a man about it and own up. I think many issues could be debated more honestly with people actually striving to come up with a solution if everyone was honest and up front with what we are doing.
 
I would rather die in a terrorist bombing attack than torture an individual which is against the law. Sorry folks but some things are worth dying for. One of those things are the integrity, honor and principles of our nation. To lie and beat around the bush (no pun intended) is to spit on the graves of every soldier that has died in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. They go to fight for the ideals of this nation and then the people back here are going about doing things they know are illegal and frankly beneath us. You can try to justify it all you want, but there is no way that will ever be properly moral or ethical.




When and where have you fought again, hero?
 
Bush and Cheney shamed every victim of 9-11..Many young soldiers joined at that point to fight back against the terrorists who attacked our nation.

From that instant forward Bush and Cheney used that moment to fullfill their political motivations.

Young soldiers who followed their orders to torture people in the name of America. Orders that were nothing but insane kneejerk reactions in response to the 9-11 attacks. No forthought what so ever. Just torture used to fullfill political desires and ambitions and our soldiers were used for such things.

Now Bush and Cheney are acting like the cowards we know they are. Hiding behind the soldiers who were following their insane orders.
 
Reading over the reports there is not exact information on what information was gleaned from torture and what was from regular interrogation. The points listed above seem to rotate between interrogation and "enhanced interrogation". What information was gotten before and after how does it compare. In the report there were no ticking time bomb scenarios which was the whole justification for the "enhanced interrogation" in contravention of standard CIA protocols. With this we have no idea if we couldn't have gotten the same information through standard interrogation. Do keep in mind the fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc
 
Actually, I can and do. If we do not have ideals and morals, we have nothing of value. If we did not have people wining to place their morals ahead of their personal safety, we would not have an armed force to defend our country.

No matter how many of your people get killed. Right?
 
No matter how many of your people get killed. Right?

Doing the right thing is rarely cheap and easy. It still should be the goal.
 
Doing the right thing is rarely cheap and easy. It still should be the goal.

Good thing you're not in any kind of leadership position.
 
Yeah. Good lord we would not want morality in our leaders.

The lives of my men were priority number one. They're lives outweighed my personal feelings. That's the only morality that a leader needs.
 
The lives of my men were priority number one. They're lives outweighed my personal feelings. That's the only morality that a leader needs.

That has never been the case in modern warfare, and a good thing.
 
Yes, but at the cost of our honor and the dignity we may have had as a nation. Cheney is an evil crook and should be locked up for the rest of his natural life. He disgusts me.

Better you disgusted than 1000's of Americans dead.
 
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What has never been the case?

That the lives of the men has been the number one priority. It has also never been the number one priority of our government.
 
Um, some 3000 have died in Iraq.....

#1. We have killed over 20,000 Jihadists in Iraq.

#2. Notice we didn't have to kill them on US. soil.

#3. Back to the topic after your attempt to derail.... there haven't been any attacks for over 7 years.

#4. Thank you troops, and CIA.!!!!( not to mention Bush and Cheney :2wave:)
 
That the lives of the men has been the number one priority. It has also never been the number one priority of our government.

The military, by it's very nature, is risky. Not going to war, because someone might get hurt the the most disfunctional way to run a military there is.

However, American citizens aren't signed up to die so you can uphold your morale standards.
 
The military, by it's very nature, is risky. Not going to war, because someone might get hurt the the most disfunctional way to run a military there is.

However, American citizens aren't signed up to die so you can uphold your morale standards.

Soldiers are American citizens.

Every action we take has risk for civilians. To be safe, we would have to close our borders, and expand our military to totally guard and control those borders. This is obviously a bad idea, but with our borders not being closed, we greatly increase the chance of Americans being killed. Every action we take overseas is likely to have some element of risk for civilians at home. That does not mean we should not take those actions overseas.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died to uphold and defend the American system and American ideals. To scrap our system of laws because it might mean a little added risk to us would be, to my mind, akin to pissing on the sacrifices made by those who died defending our system of laws.
 
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