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How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

I have seen a similar attitude among some non-union workers, to be honest about it.
Several guys in the last place I worked had bad attitudes. They should have been fired for their lack of effort, but were protected by management who didn't want it known that they were too lazy to do what was needed to fire the guys. But, management rotates, and new management did finally make the guys do their jobs. It was years, tho, not just months, before something was done.

My personal attitude was/is Given to me freely, by Union Personel. I've rarely met anyone associated with a Union that didn't disappoint me. In action,(lack of), word, or deed. I'm sure there's exceptions. You sound like you'd be worth knowing U/B.:)

Take care.
 
I'm sure it's just a "misunderstanding", on your part.:lol:

Yes the evasive tactics can go on forever and I realize I cannot compel you to admit that you are wrong. I'm of the opinion that a failure to acknowledge mistakes when they are apparent, reduces one's credibility. For me credibility and a general reputation for honest engagement is a lot more important than never having to admit that I am wrong. Winning trust from others that I will not simply say, write or post anything in spite of evidence is valuable for me.

Of course, admitting that I am wrong when the evidence is clear also allows me to learn from others and keep my worldview anchored to empirics. How can I expect to challenge my biases, if I cannot even cede minor points when the evidence is clear? Instead of demonizing others by casting them into stereotypes and concluding that they just don't understand, we do have the opportunity to learn and become more persuasive with a larger group of people.

But we can agree to disagree on who misunderstood what. The thread is here people can draw their own conclusions.
 
Yes the evasive tactics can go on forever and I realize I cannot compel you to admit that you are wrong. I'm of the opinion that a failure to acknowledge mistakes when they are apparent, reduces one's credibility. For me credibility and a general reputation for honest engagement is a lot more important than never having to admit that I am wrong. Winning trust from others that I will not simply say, write or post anything in spite of evidence is valuable for me.

Of course, admitting that I am wrong when the evidence is clear also allows me to learn from others and keep my worldview anchored to empirics. How can I expect to challenge my biases, if I cannot even cede minor points when the evidence is clear? Instead of demonizing others by casting them into stereotypes and concluding that they just don't understand, we do have the opportunity to learn and become more persuasive with a larger group of people.

But we can agree to disagree on who misunderstood what. The thread is here people can draw their own conclusions.

It takes you two full Paragraphs of inane ramblings about me, (and your personal "feelings") to say you disagree with me.:lol: Yep,,,the People will draw their own conclusions. :doh

Good Night.
 
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You've yet NOT to deny anything I've Posted,,,while claiming everything is just a "misunderstanding". As you're doing now. :lol: I agree, this engagement has been of low-value. My "Position" hasn't changed, I still think the Govt. and Unions have NO Business in Private Enterprise. You do.

Read this: Union Scandals - Google Search

You note in my I did not mention anything about my feelings. More succinct then, I think you are a bit self-righteous and as a result sloppy in your thinking. For example, you allow yourself to state the extreme viewpoint that the govt. has "NO" business in private enterprise. Well I guess that means that police shouldn't protect private property rights and courts shouldn't enforce contracts. Its pretty tough to have market exchange without contract enforcement and property rights protection. Do you really think that govt. has "NO" business in private enterprise?:doh
 
You note in my I did not mention anything about my feelings. More succinct then, I think you are a bit self-righteous and as a result sloppy in your thinking. For example, you allow yourself to state the extreme viewpoint that the govt. has "NO" business in private enterprise. Well I guess that means that police shouldn't protect private property rights and courts shouldn't enforce contracts. Its pretty tough to have market exchange without contract enforcement and property rights protection. Do you really think that govt. has "NO" business in private enterprise?:doh

I "note" I haven't a clue what you mean by "my"...Sloppy Jimbo.:lol: The Police aren't a Private Enterprise, are they?:roll: The Courts originally were designed to "Follow the Will of the People" in Laws passed "By the People".

Not "Make Law"....:doh We, the People make the Law.
 
I "note" I haven't a clue what you mean by "my"...Sloppy Jimbo.:lol: The Police aren't a Private Enterprise, are they?:roll: The Courts originally were designed to "Follow the Will of the People" in Laws passed "By the People".

Not "Make Law"....:doh We, the People make the Law.


Yeah I guess that’s right. In your ideal world, the police let private enterprise take care of their own security. Courts don’t enforce contracts because the will of the people is that government has NO business in private enterprise. Monopolies certainly aren’t regulated and are free to cause as many market inefficiencies as they desire. Hell, lead paint is still allowed and its vendors aren’t even compelled to let consumers know about the paint’s content. No need for an official currency to have a place in private enterprise. I guess businesses can create their own bartering mechanisms. Perhaps they can trade in gold or just pure goods. At least government won’t be able to print its way out of debt!!! This is quite a compelling vision of a society that you’re advocating. I mean I wouldn’t want to live in it, but then again, I foolishly think government can play a useful role in private enterprise. :(

On the bright side, I guess pirates could make a comeback, since they would be a private enterprise and the government would have no business telling them what they can and cannot do. This would probably add a lot of adventure to New Orleans and Miami. Plus militias could become professional private security forces with absolutely no regulation. Tons of fun to be had in a never-never land comprised of fearful armed adults. On second thought maybe I am game.
 
Let's debunk a right wing talking point.

Unions are bad for us.


Highest Standard of Living Countries as measured by the Human Developement Index 2006.

1 Iceland 0.968 ▲ +0.001
2 Norway 0.968 ▲ +0.001
3 Canada 0.967 ▲ +0.002
4 Australia 0.965 ▲ +0.002
5 Ireland 0.960 ▲ +0.002
6 Netherlands 0.958 ▲ +0.002
7 Sweden 0.958 ▲ +0.001
8 Japan 0.956 ▲ +0.003
9 Luxembourg 0.956 ▲ +0.002
10 Switzerland 0.955 ▲ +0.002
11 France 0.955 ▲ +0.002
12 Finland 0.954 ▲ +0.004
13 Denmark 0.952 ▲ +0.003
14 Austria 0.951 ▲ +0.003
15 United States 0.950 ▬


"Icelandic workers are among the most unionized in the world with more than 85% of them belonging to a union. "

" Norway: Unionization rate 60 %."

In fact every single country that ranks above the USA has higher union participation rates! Every single one!
 
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Yeah I guess that’s right. In your ideal world, the police let private enterprise take care of their own security. Courts don’t enforce contracts because the will of the people is that government has NO business in private enterprise. Monopolies certainly aren’t regulated and are free to cause as many market inefficiencies as they desire. Hell, lead paint is still allowed and its vendors aren’t even compelled to let consumers know about the paint’s content. No need for an official currency to have a place in private enterprise. I guess businesses can create their own bartering mechanisms. Perhaps they can trade in gold or just pure goods. At least government won’t be able to print its way out of debt!!! This is quite a compelling vision of a society that you’re advocating. I mean I wouldn’t want to live in it, but then again, I foolishly think government can play a useful role in private enterprise. :(

On the bright side, I guess pirates could make a comeback, since they would be a private enterprise and the government would have no business telling them what they can and cannot do. This would probably add a lot of adventure to New Orleans and Miami. Plus militias could become professional private security forces with absolutely no regulation. Tons of fun to be had in a never-never land comprised of fearful armed adults. On second thought maybe I am game.

Do you think you could ramble a bit more coherently in the future?:roll: I said:

Originally Posted by Realist1
I "note" I haven't a clue what you mean by "my"...Sloppy Jimbo. The Police aren't a Private Enterprise, are they? The Courts originally were designed to "Follow the Will of the People" in Laws passed "By the People".
Not "Make Law".... We, the People make the Law.


You then procede to babble on about Pirates, Paint, and Militias...:lol:

Take care.
 
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No point really. For me you cut spending first, then cut taxes once things balance and you get a (real) surplus, but overall, I agree with lower taxes lower spending as an ideal
Arrest this man, he's posing as a liberal!
 
My personal attitude was/is Given to me freely, by Union Personel. I've rarely met anyone associated with a Union that didn't disappoint me. In action,(lack of), word, or deed. I'm sure there's exceptions. You sound like you'd be worth knowing U/B.:)

Take care.

I have never worked as a union employee, but have worked very closely with them. On a few occasions, I have encouraged/educated union workers as to how badly they are being ripped off. First, they get less pay than comparable non-union workers, and then they get to pay union dues.
Two of them "crossed over" to the other side....:2razz:
As soon as the non-union job came open, they bid it, and got it.
Really competent workers usually don't need a union.

But having said that, there are times when management can be so very stupid that they are practically begging for a union to be formed...
 
You've yet NOT to deny anything I've Posted,,,while claiming everything is just a "misunderstanding". As you're doing now. :lol: I agree, this engagement has been of low-value. My "Position" hasn't changed, I still think the Govt. and Unions have NO Business in Private Enterprise. You do.

Read this: Union Scandals - Google Search

So now you are just going to summarize our dialogue and forget about defending anything you say. Well with my "ramblings", I think I'm clarifying the difference between our positions. If preventing 3-year old children from eating lead paint chips requires some government regulation, you would prefer that the 3 year-old child eats lead paint chips. I wouldn't prefer this. Its just a 3 year-old realist and its easy government regulation. But I guess you have to defend your position of "NO" (and that's with a capital O).:2wave:
 
Yeah I guess that’s right. In your ideal world, the police let private enterprise take care of their own security. Courts don’t enforce contracts because the will of the people is that government has NO business in private enterprise. Monopolies certainly aren’t regulated and are free to cause as many market inefficiencies as they desire. Hell, lead paint is still allowed and its vendors aren’t even compelled to let consumers know about the paint’s content. No need for an official currency to have a place in private enterprise. I guess businesses can create their own bartering mechanisms. Perhaps they can trade in gold or just pure goods. At least government won’t be able to print its way out of debt!!! This is quite a compelling vision of a society that you’re advocating. I mean I wouldn’t want to live in it, but then again, I foolishly think government can play a useful role in private enterprise. :(

On the bright side, I guess pirates could make a comeback, since they would be a private enterprise and the government would have no business telling them what they can and cannot do. This would probably add a lot of adventure to New Orleans and Miami. Plus militias could become professional private security forces with absolutely no regulation. Tons of fun to be had in a never-never land comprised of fearful armed adults. On second thought maybe I am game.

FYI, lead paint was never the primary culprit in the lead content in our children's bodies. It was lead additive to gasoline, but there was plenty of industry denial on that until it was proven. I forget the guy's name, but one scientist was the lone truth teller on the lead issue, and he was finally vindicated. That is why we have unleaded gasoline today.
Government, initially, was NOT doing the right thing about it. So even tho the government SHOULD be protecting us from unscrupulous industry practices, they will often choose the ignorant or dishonest path until someone comes along and forces the issue.
If private enterprise could be trusted to find ways to make a profit without doing so at the expense of the public's health, I would be more libertarian in my thinking. But greed is the predominant problem here. The history of business is rife with stories of a few already rich men making even more money with absolutely no concern for the collateral damage they cause.
 
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I've been in a union a few times and found it didn't meet my needs. I worked for a organization that started a union, and didn't feel like supporting it, but the peer pressure was intense.

Still I politically support unions on principle. Workers have rights I'm just not sure that unions protect those rights in truth.
 
I have never worked as a union employee, but have worked very closely with them. On a few occasions, I have encouraged/educated union workers as to how badly they are being ripped off. First, they get less pay than comparable non-union workers, and then they get to pay union dues.
Two of them "crossed over" to the other side....:2razz:
As soon as the non-union job came open, they bid it, and got it.
Really competent workers usually don't need a union.

But having said that, there are times when management can be so very stupid that they are practically begging for a union to be formed...

That's a major point with me U/B...Mind if I borrow it?:)

Really competent workers usually don't need a union.

Like I've said before, There's a few Union Personel I've run across that were competent in their job, but they were the Exception. NOT the Rule.:lol:

Take care.
 
So now you are just going to summarize our dialogue and forget about defending anything you say. Well with my "ramblings", I think I'm clarifying the difference between our positions. If preventing 3-year old children from eating lead paint chips requires some government regulation, you would prefer that the 3 year-old child eats lead paint chips. I wouldn't prefer this. Its just a 3 year-old realist and its easy government regulation. But I guess you have to defend your position of "NO" (and that's with a capital O).:2wave:

And you,,,as the Liberal Unionist. You wouldn't be able to take on the responsibility of telling your own Child to "Stop eating Lead Paint Chips". :roll: You NEED a Govt. Regulator to tell you what to do, set some Guide Lines for you, and wipe your lower Posterior for you.:lol:


Good Job Jimbo. Oh,,,by the way. Your Union Dues are being raised to cover the costs of dealing with you...:doh
 
And you,,,as the Liberal Unionist. You wouldn't be able to take on the responsibility of telling your own Child to "Stop eating Lead Paint Chips". :roll: You NEED a Govt. Regulator to tell you what to do, set some Guide Lines for you, and wipe your lower Posterior for you.:lol:


Good Job Jimbo. Oh,,,by the way. Your Union Dues are being raised to cover the costs of dealing with you...:doh

Why do you have to label me and make all of these assumptions? Well I guess a liberal unionist is better than union drone. Everything in this post is a personal attack and exageration. Sorry if I pissed you off. Have a nice life.
 
That's a major point with me U/B...Mind if I borrow it?:)

Really competent workers usually don't need a union.

Like I've said before, There's a few Union Personel I've run across that were competent in their job, but they were the Exception. NOT the Rule.:lol:

Take care.

Feel free to quote me....
Couple of places I worked while still in the nuclear field I ran into people who were much less than competent, and if there is any field where that should be unacceptable, it is nuclear. Well, there is commercial aviation as well. How would you like to be flying in a plane that was repaired by someone who barely graduated tech school?
To be fair, the really bad ones got laid off, or promoted to management where they wouldn't be as likely to damage the equipment.
 
Why do you have to label me and make all of these assumptions? Well I guess a liberal unionist is better than union drone. Everything in this post is a personal attack and exageration. Sorry if I pissed you off. Have a nice life.

"If the Shoe fits, Wear it". If not, stop the rambling on about Paint, Pirates, and Militias. Stick to the Subject.

No. Im not P.O.'d. Amused mostly. :lol:

Take care.
 
Feel free to quote me....
Couple of places I worked while still in the nuclear field I ran into people who were much less than competent, and if there is any field where that should be unacceptable, it is nuclear. Well, there is commercial aviation as well. How would you like to be flying in a plane that was repaired by someone who barely graduated tech school?
To be fair, the really bad ones got laid off, or promoted to management where they wouldn't be as likely to damage the equipment.

Granted. I served in the Navy for the 1st 4 years repairing Nuc/ Bubble Boats. USS Dixon AS37. out of Coronado, San Diego CA.

We didn't "Lay-Off" the bad Techs. We shipped them to Nam.:lol: You'd be surprised how quick the rest "Learned".:roll:


Take care U/B.
 
Granted. I served in the Navy for the 1st 4 years repairing Nuc/ Bubble Boats. USS Dixon AS37. out of Coronado, San Diego CA.

We didn't "Lay-Off" the bad Techs. We shipped them to Nam.:lol: You'd be surprised how quick the rest "Learned".:roll:


Take care U/B.

Been to san diego a lot, first while serving on a fast attack (ssn 590) in the late 60's, later as a reservist for 2 weeks at a time. They never asked me to do much....
 
I've been in a union a few times and found it didn't meet my needs. I worked for a organization that started a union, and didn't feel like supporting it, but the peer pressure was intense.

Still I politically support unions on principle. Workers have rights I'm just not sure that unions protect those rights in truth.

Careful now,,, you're stepping on ground where you'll be accused of supporting "Lead Paint, Pirates, and Militias". That, and a nasty Independent Streak.:) NOT ALLOWED in Unions.:lol:

Take care Wind.;)
 
Been to san diego a lot, first while serving on a fast attack (ssn 590) in the late 60's, later as a reservist for 2 weeks at a time. They never asked me to do much....

The group we served was Sub Ron 1...You're an Elite to have Served. :) I'd spent a day at a time crawling around those "Boats" busting my head and knuckles making repairs,,, you'd "get underway", and be gone for months.

I don't think I'd much care to be "under" for months.:bolt
 
The group we served was Sub Ron 1...You're an Elite to have Served. :) I'd spent a day at a time crawling around those "Boats" busting my head and knuckles making repairs,,, you'd "get underway", and be gone for months.

I don't think I'd much care to be "under" for months.:bolt

Turns out that I didn't care for it either....ever hear of SAD? Lack of sunshine makes UtahBill a very unhappy person. My depression didn't get properly diagnosed until after being out of the Navy for about 7 years, when I was living in Idaho and we had a very bad spring that prolonged a bad winter.
As a result of that, we moved to Arizona. In Idaho, I needed drugs, but in AZ, I did not...
 
Turns out that I didn't care for it either....ever hear of SAD? Lack of sunshine makes UtahBill a very unhappy person. My depression didn't get properly diagnosed until after being out of the Navy for about 7 years, when I was living in Idaho and we had a very bad spring that prolonged a bad winter.
As a result of that, we moved to Arizona. In Idaho, I needed drugs, but in AZ, I did not...

I can't fault you on that. It takes a "Special Mentality" to thrive under those conditions. I confess, I don't have it. I can "tolerate" it for just so long...

I need "Sky" over me. Peace to you U/B.:2wave:
 
Careful now,,, you're stepping on ground where you'll be accused of supporting "Lead Paint, Pirates, and Militias". That, and a nasty Independent Streak.:) NOT ALLOWED in Unions.:lol:

Take care Wind.;)

Just to be clear, I try not to second-guess anyone's experience with unions and I certainly cherish independent thought. I hope it didn't come across like I was second-guessing your experience. Generally, I try not to make unfounded conjectures about empirical information. Sorry if it felt like I did at some point. Again sorry if this exchange left you feeling bitter towards me or my arguments.
 
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