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What'll We Do About the Town Hall Screamers? Part 2: The More Things Change...:

sam_w said:
Well, kind of not too difficult to draw that conclusion considering the intellectual emptiness of most of the arguments. Factor the craven hypocrisy of people screaming about Socialism, when they themselves demand no cuts be made to their Medicare (you know that Socialist program for 65 and over). Or should we consider the depraved dishonesty from the likes of Grassley, Palin, and Newt and their Death Panels (you know, the ones they were formally in favor of, back when they were correctly called end of life counseling). Consider the so called deficit hawks who cry about the cost, while dishonestly ignoring what the impact of rising healthcare costs and Medicare growth.

Stupidity is arguing against paying for the healthcare of others...while we are already paying! Stupidity is thinking we can stay the course, and still be competitive in the global economy with a 17% GDP expenditure on healthcare. Stupidity is thinking we have such a great healthcare system, when every study shows we do not. Stupidity is using intellectually dishonest claims about our cancer survival rates, while completely ignoring the ironic "Socialist" investment government makes in cancer research. Stupidity is the sheer number of so called anti-Socialist Republicans who want to defeat "Socialist" healthcare, when they themselves do not have the honesty to support ending all our other wonderful Socialist programs. Stupidity is thinking we have a great system, when we are paying thousands of dollars more per person; that translates into higher out of pocket costs, lower wages, and increasing need for businesses to no longer offer healthcare. Stupidity is when NGO healthcare groups have to set up operations in U.S. cities, the same work they do in THIRD WORLD NATIONS (Yes folks, we join Haiti, Afghanistan, and others).

So no, it may not be the only reason that people are opposing HCR is because they are stupid and evil, but god damn if honest opposition is damn hard to find. The reality than any child could see is that opposition so far is primarily for partisan and special interests. Boo hoo the insurance companies might actually have to get a little more honest, I really could not give a bleep. They are one industry that seeks to drag down our whole economy. Where have the honest and thoughtful opponents been? Could it be that the Republicans just want a Waterloo moment, could it be that they care more about winning elections than the good of the nation? Well, I think the past 8 years have said enough.

In 2003 the Republicans in charge of both House and Senate, as well as the Presidency pushed out a Medicare bill without one single thought to how it was to be paid for. This bill alone will end up costing about close to the exact same as the current HCR proposals. Think about it, why was there no Republicans crying then for deficits and costs and so on? Where are these champions of deficits crying about a war in Iraq that will cost us in the end $3-5 trillion more than what was sold to us the public?

Most importantly, think for a second, what does it say about the opponents argument when they have to resort to the most depraved of lies and deceit. The sheer hypocrisy of Newt, Palin, Grassley, and others is despicable. To whip up anger and fear over these Death Panels, when these same despicable humans supported them.
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Good post, Sam....
Any republican politician claiming to be a conservative spender is a bigger joker than Mr. V....:2razz:
 
UtahBill said:
Good post, Sam....
Any republican politician claiming to be a conservative spender is a bigger joker than Mr. V....:2razz:
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Two Questions for you Utah Bill, Sam_w, or any of you other government take over medicine folks...

This "Medical Reform" is gonna run 1,000,000,000,000.00 dollars... projected.

How can we afford that now?

How can we afford the certain cost over runs of the program later?
 
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MrVicchio said:
Two Questions for you Utah Bill,

This "Medical Reform" is gonna run 1,000,000,000,000.00 dollars... projected.

How can we afford that now?

How can we afford the certain cost over runs of the program later?
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Nobody knows the true cost of this....just like nobody knew the true cost of the Bush wars.
How can the GOP be FOR SPENDING on their programs, but AGAINST SPENDING on DEM programs?

My hope is that no matter the final result on coverage, people get charged a copay that discourages visits for trivial reasons. I saw that in the Navy, moms showing up with their kids for every scraped knee or runny nose.
 
UtahBill said:
Nobody knows the true cost of this....just like nobody knew the true cost of the Bush wars.
How can the GOP be FOR SPENDING on their programs, but AGAINST SPENDING on DEM programs?

My hope is that no matter the final result on coverage, people get charged a copay that discourages visits for trivial reasons. I saw that in the Navy, moms showing up with their kids for every scraped knee or runny nose.
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Yeah Bill, I saw that too, my Ex used to run herself, or the kids to the clinic if they so much as sneezed.

But that's not the point, the projected cost of this program RIGHT NOW is 1,000,000,000,000.00 dollars. Look at cash for clunkers, less then a month and it was 200% over budget!

The argument of "Well the GOP was for spending for this, so they can't be against spending for that" is ludicrous.

I'll turn it around then, the Dems were against spending for the war, cause it cost too much, how can they be FOR spending for this?? The Hypocrisy!!!!

One other side question... the reason we need "reform" is because of those damned dirty insurance companies right? So why are we being told we'll be able to keep our coverage if this passes as is by the same carriers with no changes??


That, makes no sense mon.
 
MrVicchio said:
Yeah Bill, I saw that too, my Ex used to run herself, or the kids to the clinic if they so much as sneezed.

But that's not the point, the projected cost of this program RIGHT NOW is 1,000,000,000,000.00 dollars. Look at cash for clunkers, less then a month and it was 200% over budget!

The argument of "Well the GOP was for spending for this, so they can't be against spending for that" is ludicrous.

I'll turn it around then, the Dems were against spending for the war, cause it cost too much, how can they be FOR spending for this?? The Hypocrisy!!!!

One other side question... the reason we need "reform" is because of those damned dirty insurance companies right? So why are we being told we'll be able to keep our coverage if this passes as is by the same carriers with no changes??


That, makes no sense mon.
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The insurance companies have already stated that they will insure people with pre-existing conditions as long as we are all required to have insurance. That is the only way they can afford to insure the already sick.
The way I see it, we are required to have car insurance and if the govt can mandate car insurance to drive, they should be able to mandate health insurance.
 
UtahBill said:
The insurance companies have already stated that they will insure people with pre-existing conditions as long as we are all required to have insurance. That is the only way they can afford to insure the already sick.
The way I see it, we are required to have car insurance and if the govt can mandate car insurance to drive, they should be able to mandate health insurance.
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If I don't want a car, I don't have to have insurance.

I think you are wrong on this, so very wrong.

There are many many ways to reform the insurance system without this debacle, and the worst part is, and many of you are being highly dishonest here, This will destroy the insurance system, we'll be single payer in 10 years.

Obama stated that's his goal, it's been a goal for 50 years, REGAN gave a speech in '61 on the dangers of this.

Don't lie and say you think this is over the top partisanship, it's not. This is about power, power to tell you , me and everyone else how to live cause we're too stupid to do it right without "Washington's benevolence"


The dem's pass this, and you'll see a massacre at the polls in 2010.
 
UtahBill said:
In many cases, I can agree with that. I know quite a few people who have filed bankruptcy, and all but one of them didn't have health insurance, by choice. One guy quit a job with benefits for him and his family to take one without benefits, one where he didn't have to work the evening shift so much.
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And doesn't that tell you that the system we have is bankrupt and anti-liberty? Want to start your own business? Think twice. Change jobs? Not if you have a P.E.condition. Buy catastrophic insurance? The policies are written in such a way that the 50% co-pays will likely send you into bankruptcy, anyhow, should a medical condition occur. ($500. a month for a $7500. deductible, per person, and 50% co-pay, after that, for family insurance in my state) That would cover a lot of cable T.V.
 
MrVicchio said:
If I don't want a car, I don't have to have insurance.

I think you are wrong on this, so very wrong.

There are many many ways to reform the insurance system without this debacle, and the worst part is, and many of you are being highly dishonest here, This will destroy the insurance system, we'll be single payer in 10 years.

Obama stated that's his goal, it's been a goal for 50 years, REGAN gave a speech in '61 on the dangers of this.

Don't lie and say you think this is over the top partisanship, it's not. This is about power, power to tell you , me and everyone else how to live cause we're too stupid to do it right without "Washington's benevolence"
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So, I guess you just prefer to spend double that of every other western nation so that a large nanny corporation can tell you how to live ? And you cannot even vote them out of office when they decide to drop your insurance.
 
Cassandra said:
And doesn't that tell you that the system we have is bankrupt and anti-liberty? Want to start your own business? Think twice. Change jobs? Not if you have a P.E.condition. Buy catastrophic insurance? The policies are written in such a way that the 50% co-pays will likely send you into bankruptcy, anyhow, should a medical condition occur. ($500. a month for a $7500. deductible, per person, and 50% co-pay, after that, for family insurance in my state) That would cover a lot of cable T.V.
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For 2 years I had a major medical policy thru BCBS, from age 59 to 60, then my military reserve retirement kicked in.
It was 5K deductible before they started paying for treatment. Annual exams and lab tests were almost free, a small copay IIRC.
It was cheap, so cheap that I got mad at myself for staying on Cobra for the 9 months that I did. BTW, I have a family history of depression and colon cancer...and they knew all of that.
Granted, that was a few years ago, and only covered me, as my wife's school district covered her. To add me would have been a lot more. Same school district, today, our son is insured, but to add his family is about $1,000 per month. They went to a private insurance company for the wife and kids, it costs about $350 per month, $1500 per person deductible, $5000 per family.
THEN, it covers 100% of everything. Good thing they have the 100% plan, the 80/20 plan would have bankrupted them after their oldest child got the inoperable brain tumor. Chemo isn't cheap, nor is brain surgery for the shunts and the new tumor that developed, but was operable.
Phoenix Children's Hospital will provide care without the ability to pay, but that is a children's hospital, supported by a LOT of rich donors.
Adults who get free care, because they don't have insurance, are also covered by donors, you and me, the taxpayer.
For most of us, and I love repeating this, major medical insurance is cheap, it is beer/wine/cigarette/etc. money. Most of us who don't have insurance CAN afford it, but we just have to give up some luxuries..
 
Cassandra said:
So, I guess you just prefer to spend double that of every other western nation so that a large nanny corporation can tell you how to live ? And you cannot even vote them out of office when they decide to drop your insurance.
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Yeah, I prefer a healthcare system that works. Thanks.


We can do a lot to pricing and costs without Government Run anything, but if that were the gaol, you wouldn't be for this.

It's so dishonest to talk about how much "more America spends" when all the reforms being pushed do Zilch to control costs and everything to increase Government.
 
MrVicchio said:
Yeah, I prefer a healthcare system that works. Thanks.


We can do a lot to pricing and costs without Government Run anything, but if that were the gaol, you wouldn't be for this.

It's so dishonest to talk about how much "more America spends" when all the reforms being pushed do Zilch to control costs and everything to increase Government.
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Zilch, and Everything, are exaggerations...
I haven't seen one iota of evidence concerning the govt wanting to control our lives for evil or draconian purposes.
 
MrVicchio said:
If I don't want a car, I don't have to have insurance.

I think you are wrong on this, so very wrong.

There are many many ways to reform the insurance system without this debacle, and the worst part is, and many of you are being highly dishonest here, This will destroy the insurance system, we'll be single payer in 10 years.

Obama stated that's his goal, it's been a goal for 50 years, REGAN gave a speech in '61 on the dangers of this.

Don't lie and say you think this is over the top partisanship, it's not. This is about power, power to tell you , me and everyone else how to live cause we're too stupid to do it right without "Washington's benevolence"


The dem's pass this, and you'll see a massacre at the polls in 2010.
Click to expand...

The insurance industry won't be destroyed, they are more powerful than congress, have been for decades. Likewise the banking industry...
The govt can't run very well without an economic engine to provide the resources. They know that, which is why they got all that money to help them survive.
 
UtahBill said:
Zilch, and Everything, are exaggerations...
I haven't seen one iota of evidence concerning the govt wanting to control our lives for evil or draconian purposes.
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You're on Government Healthcare.

Now they decide that since they are paying for your healthcare... well, to control costs you need to follow some "Lifestyle guidelines" or you won't get any treatment...

Don't think that won't happen... it all ready is in UHC Countries.
 
MrVicchio said:
You're on Government Healthcare.

Now they decide that since they are paying for your healthcare... well, to control costs you need to follow some "Lifestyle guidelines" or you won't get any treatment...

Don't think that won't happen... it all ready is in UHC Countries.
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They won't be paying, we will be writing checks one way or another.
And if it means making smokers, alcoholics, druggies pay more, I am for that.
Cigarettes need to be $20 a pack, not carton. Alcohol drinks should be taxed based on content, or proof. 80 proof whiskey is 40% alcohol, so it should be taxed at 40 percent, simple as that. And idiot drivers who go too fast for conditions should also be taxed more than safe drivers. On top of that, the doctors can classify lardbutt fatties as needing to pay more for insurance.

We are ALL already paying for illnesses and injuries related to the irresponsible behaviour of ourselves, which is fair, but paying for others? No, I don't want to pay for others, not even my idiot brother who STILL smokes, drinks, and gambles his money away, and then wants me to lend him money.
None of us should have to pay for the stupid habits of others...
 
UtahBill said:
They won't be paying, we will be writing checks one way or another.
And if it means making smokers, alcoholics, druggies pay more, I am for that.
Cigarettes need to be $20 a pack, not carton. Alcohol drinks should be taxed based on content, or proof. 80 proof whiskey is 40% alcohol, so it should be taxed at 40 percent, simple as that. And idiot drivers who go too fast for conditions should also be taxed more than safe drivers. On top of that, the doctors can classify lardbutt fatties as needing to pay more for insurance.

We are ALL already paying for illnesses and injuries related to the irresponsible behaviour of ourselves, which is fair, but paying for others? No, I don't want to pay for others, not even my idiot brother who STILL smokes, drinks, and gambles his money away, and then wants me to lend him money.
None of us should have to pay for the stupid habits of others...
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Freedom, Liberty, Personal Choice, Pursuit of Happiness...

All come second to what people like YOU think of how OTHERS should live their lives. If they try to do it other then the "Right way" you will punish them.


This is known as soft Tyranny. All American's are equal, some are just ore equal, and some less equal... how equal are you comrade?
 
MrVicchio said:
Freedom, Liberty, Personal Choice, Pursuit of Happiness...

All come second to what people like YOU think of how OTHERS should live their lives. If they try to do it other then the "Right way" you will punish them.


This is known as soft Tyranny. All American's are equal, some are just ore equal, and some less equal... how equal are you comrade?
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You working part time as a comedian?:2razz:
People who choose to live a life that puts them at risk, or makes them sick, will still have every right to do so, but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to pay their medical bills when the smoking, excessive drinking, doping, overeating, etc. catches up to them.
They choose to pay higher insurance rates when they choose to indulge in unhealthy behavior.
 
sam_w said:
Well, kind of not too difficult to draw that conclusion considering the intellectual emptiness of most of the arguments.
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Empty according to YOU -- and besides, you focus on the vapid ones while ignoring the substantive ones.
 
UtahBill said:
For 2 years I had a major medical policy thru BCBS, from age 59 to 60, then my military reserve retirement kicked in.
It was 5K deductible before they started paying for treatment. Annual exams and lab tests were almost free, a small copay IIRC.
It was cheap, so cheap that I got mad at myself for staying on Cobra for the 9 months that I did. BTW, I have a family history of depression and colon cancer...and they knew all of that.
Granted, that was a few years ago, and only covered me, as my wife's school district covered her. To add me would have been a lot more. Same school district, today, our son is insured, but to add his family is about $1,000 per month. They went to a private insurance company for the wife and kids, it costs about $350 per month, $1500 per person deductible, $5000 per family.
THEN, it covers 100% of everything. Good thing they have the 100% plan, the 80/20 plan would have bankrupted them after their oldest child got the inoperable brain tumor. Chemo isn't cheap, nor is brain surgery for the shunts and the new tumor that developed, but was operable.
Phoenix Children's Hospital will provide care without the ability to pay, but that is a children's hospital, supported by a LOT of rich donors.
Adults who get free care, because they don't have insurance, are also covered by donors, you and me, the taxpayer.
For most of us, and I love repeating this, major medical insurance is cheap, it is beer/wine/cigarette/etc. money. Most of us who don't have insurance CAN afford it, but we just have to give up some luxuries..
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Well I cannot account for the huge disparity in costs from state to state but I can tell you that in Maine, adult couples in your age bracket will pay $25,000-$35,000 a year for a low deductible policy. My understanding is that Maine is one of the few states which does not allow 'cherry picking'. Therefore the cost of insurance on the individual market is through the roof. I am quite sure that Arizona does not have the 'guarantee issue' law so I am surprised you were able to get health insurance at all. So sorry about your grandchild! My heart goes out to you and your family.

My high deductible policy is the $500. a month I just mentioned and covers squat, as I said. I can afford the premium. What I cannot afford is the premium plus all the health care expenses that my insurance does not cover. My son's asthma med is $175. a month. In a couple of weeks, I will go to Canada to buy it for $30. The insurance co. refused to pay for my husband's cancer care so we must make payments to the hospital, as well. What an absurd situation.
 
Harshaw said:
Empty according to YOU -- and besides, you focus on the vapid ones while ignoring the substantive ones.
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The substantive ones are what I would consider legitimate, honest disagreements that deserve debate in committee before being brought to the floor for vote, therefore no need for focus.


The vapid ones are born of deceit, dishonesty and outright lies that need to be brought to attention for all to see.
 
Cassandra said:
Well I cannot account for the huge disparity in costs from state to state but I can tell you that in Maine, adult couples in your age bracket will pay $25,000-$35,000 a year for a low deductible policy. My understanding is that Maine is one of the few states which does not allow 'cherry picking'. Therefore the cost of insurance on the individual market is through the roof. I am quite sure that Arizona does not have the 'guarantee issue' law so I am surprised you were able to get health insurance at all. So sorry about your grandchild! My heart goes out to you and your family.

My high deductible policy is the $500. a month I just mentioned and covers squat, as I said. I can afford the premium. What I cannot afford is the premium plus all the health care expenses that my insurance does not cover. My son's asthma med is $175. a month. In a couple of weeks, I will go to Canada to buy it for $30. The insurance co. refused to pay for my husband's cancer care so we must make payments to the hospital, as well. What an absurd situation.
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With your existing conditons, health care reform should be a good thing for you and your family, if we can believe what they are saying....
High drug costs are, IMO, criminal. If the same drug can be had cheaper by shopping in Canada or Mexico, something is wrong...
 
that's still doesn't answer my question.
 
BWG said:
The substantive ones are what I would consider legitimate, honest disagreements
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sam_w (whom I was addressing) seems to think there aren't any.


that deserve debate in committee before being brought to the floor for vote, therefore no need for focus.
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Why should they not be discussed in the open by the public?


The vapid ones are born of deceit, dishonesty and outright lies that need to be brought to attention for all to see.
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The problem is when you pretend -- or seek to give the impression -- that they're the only ones which exist.
 
liblady said:
if the people doing the screaming have read the bill, why are they screaming about death panels and medicare? hmm?????
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It's because they hear Rush, Hannity, Coulter, O'Reilly and their Republican elected officials doing the same. Their leaders and public voices get paid off by the HC companies and then they parrot the same drivel in perfect accord. Amazing, isn't it?
 
scourge99 said:
price gouging should be illegal, yes.

or they subsidize drugs or something of that nature.
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The U.S. gives drug companies lengthy patent protection and then allows them to charge whatever they want to U.S. citizens. Canada, on the other hand, bargains for the favorable pricing.
 
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