Hey Hazlnut,
You both have a right to your opinion and you don't have to agree. There is NO REASON to get nasty.
I was at that town hall meeting and it was on the most part civil. I also watch this lady getting ambush by the media.
It's not about getting nasty -- but when someone says something like her 'dismantling of the country' statement -- I want to know what she means. The same questions asked by MSNBC (and only them so far) came to mind. WTF are you talking about, lady?
The MSNBC interviewer really took pity on her when he saw that she had no real understanding of the what the health care reform bill was attempting to do and could only repeat back a string of right-wing talking points. She was not a very well-informed person and if he had hammered on her any more, then he would have come off as a bully.
I am not a fan or regular watcher of MSNBC, but CNN and FOX have both been giving air time to these average people with opinions on the health care bill. The majority of these opinions are based on gross misinformation. How does that help the debate? How does get other people better informed about the bill's pros and cons?
Real experts on health care policy and economics are given a measly half-hour segment on Sunday morning or on C-Span. They have raised legitimate issues with the bill and are able to intelligently discuss and communicate the complicated formulas and policies. I watch these shows. Mrs. Abrams doesn't know they exist.
Her point is this nation was founded on principles that are being violated by our government.
How so? She was completely unable to articulate her position with any real examples. She revealed herself as someone who really doesn't understand many basic concepts of public policy and government in our country.
Her call is a call for GOVERNMENT REFORM. She is making a call to return to our founding principles and the US Constitution.
Her point is valid. Any law that cannot be placed within the Constitution is without merit. Our government has NO AUTHORITY to pass this sweeping legislation.
Where Article 1 section 8 has “…and general Welfare of the United States;” does not include health care. The reason is that the proposed bill if made law VIOLATES states’ rights and individuals’ rights to make it happen.
Social Security, Medicare, Welfare and Medicaid WILL FAIL. They are unsustainable. They are not successful they should be on the chopping block of history.
At least you are able to answer the questions she was not. So, you are
for the elimination of the 'safety net' programs? I agree, they are expensive and there are sometimes abuses in these programs.
But without them, we're talking about massive amounts of people, especially the elderly, being turned out into the streets and/or left to die. Are you for that? Are you for families, children who find themselves with out health insurance through no fault of their own being denied any care whatsoever?
My children get regular check-ups. I'm guessing, based on what Mrs. Abrams said, so do her children. It's easy for us to sit up on our secure and insured hill and say 'no problem here'. But step outside of your own community. A factory closes, a local economy goes south, people are laid off and lose their coverage. No more regular check-ups. No more screening for health issues that could be treated before they get worse.
I'd like to put you and Mrs. Abrams in a waiting room with the parents of a child who has gone into a coma with undiagnosed diabetes, or stopped breathing due to an asma attack that could have been stopped with an inhaler, or has a form of cancer that was treatable in the early stages. You look at them and explain your concept of 'general welfare.'
Most reasonable people, conservative and liberal, agree that we are a compassionate nation with a history of smart 'safety net' programs. We learned from the massive poverty and crime during the Great Depression that it is in our best interest to be proactive in preventing poverty, crime, homelessness, with smart, pragmatic programs. The programs you mentioned are not prefect and have all undergone a lot of fine-tuning over the years. And there will always be someone looking for new ways to beat the system.
Socialism breads tyranny. That is what happened in the USSR and in NAZI Germany. The progressive movement gave birth to both and is trying to separate from its children.
You, like Katie Abram, really don't have a grasp on some basic concepts of government and the various types of government. It is difficult to discuss politics with you, because we come from different educational backgrounds. If I sound elitist, well, that may be from your POV.
But I encourage you to brush up on your 20th Century history and poli sci.
You cannot logically deny the facts. Maybe you could call me some names and give me the STFU award. If given the chance I would like to ask one of my Senators about this RAPING of our founding principles and how they intend to return us to them.
None have the courage.
The country is indeed swinging, in some respects, to the left with the expansion of the Federal Government. But that's the platform Barack Obama ran on. And he won the election. This is the Democrats attempt to fix many problems in the financial, energy, and health industries. But there are no FACTS that in anyway indicate a move towards socialism or total government take over of any of these industries. If you believe that, you've been grossly misinformed.
Many people come to political forums armed with what they think are the facts. They are content to know what they already know and are not very receptive to new or conflicting information. I would love to sit down with you and Katie Abrams, a computer and several reference books and just spend and hour or so helping you get better versed on basic poli sci, economic, and public policy concepts.
There are also a a number of folks who come to discussion forums simply as partisan or party shills. They are not really interested in discussing anything. They post many times a day, usually copy-pasting opinion pieces and links to stories they saw on other partisan blogs or sites. They argue as true believers, however it is sometimes obvious that they are smart enough and educated enough to see through their own BULL****.
I encourage you to listen to both sides, retreat and do some independent fact checking from a non-partisan source, then listen some more. And go to Wikipedia or your library and read up on Socialism and try to get a better understanding of what socialism in its many forms is and what it is not.