• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

Powell said:There is no African-American in this county who has not been exposed to this kind of situation. Do you get angry? Yes. Do you manifest that anger? Do you protest?

There was a time I had respect for Powell. That time is way in the past. Did he not hear the 9-11 tapes? Did he not read the report. Did he not hear the statement from the Black Officer on the scene? Powell even though he said Gates should have chilled still wants to make it about race which it clearly was not. He is in my mind trying to back the Racist in Chief Obama but did it sideways and tried to be sly and subtle about it.
 
There was a time I had respect for Powell. That time is way in the past. Did he not hear the 9-11 tapes? Did he not read the report. Did he not hear the statement from the Black Officer on the scene? Powell even though he said Gates should have chilled still wants to make it about race which it clearly was not. He is in my mind trying to back the Racist in Chief Obama but did it sideways and tried to be sly and subtle about it.

In your quote of Powell, it's not "Do you protest" it's "You protest". It's not a question, it's a statement.

He's answering the "Do you manifest that anger?" question with acceptable responses for manifesting that anger that won't lead to situations like this.
 
In your quote of Powell, it's not "Do you protest" it's "You protest". It's not a question, it's a statement.

He's answering the "Do you manifest that anger?" question with acceptable responses for manifesting that anger that won't lead to situations like this.
That's one aspect of this that has not gotten half the attention it needs--even if one grants Gates all the justifications needed for his anger, how he expressed that anger was not how society functions.

Protesting is one thing, being loud and obnoxious is another.
 
That's one aspect of this that has not gotten half the attention it needs--even if one grants Gates all the justifications needed for his anger, how he expressed that anger was not how society functions.

Protesting is one thing, being loud and obnoxious is another.

Exactly. I believe that was essentially what Powell was saying here. Kudos to him for stating it.
 
There was a time I had respect for Powell. That time is way in the past. Did he not hear the 9-11 tapes? Did he not read the report. Did he not hear the statement from the Black Officer on the scene? Powell even though he said Gates should have chilled still wants to make it about race which it clearly was not. He is in my mind trying to back the Racist in Chief Obama but did it sideways and tried to be sly and subtle about it.

He's coming at this from a different perspective since he's black. I think he was talking about Gate's perspective--from how Gates perceived Crowley's behavior. I didn't get the impression that he was saying that Crowley's behavior was based on race.
 
He's coming at this from a different perspective since he's black. I think he was talking about Gate's perspective--from how Gates perceived Crowley's behavior. I didn't get the impression that he was saying that Crowley's behavior was based on race.

What perspective would that be, eaxactly? How do blacks know that they are treated any different than whites by the cops?
 
What perspective would that be, eaxactly? How do blacks know that they are treated any different than whites by the cops?
I'm curious to hear the answer to that one myself.
 
What perspective would that be, eaxactly? How do blacks know that they are treated any different than whites by the cops?

That's a good question. I think it's a known fact that black people are viewed more suspiciously than white people. And there may be a valid reason for that. Neverthless, they are often treated differently.
 
What perspective would that be, eaxactly? How do blacks know that they are treated any different than whites by the cops?

Are you joking? In a state like Masachusetts, the people in bad neighborhoods are almost all minorities... That would lead a cop to be more suspicious of a minority than a white person, who tends to be the inhabitant of better neighborhoods. That can undoubtedly be frustrating for a normal minority who has done nothing wrong... in bad neighborhood or good. But that's no excuse to throw a tantrum like Gates did.

Powell worded it well.
 
Last edited:
That's a good question. I think it's a known fact that black people are viewed more suspiciously than white people. And there may be a valid reason for that. Neverthless, they are often treated differently.
But that doesn't really answer the question. On what basis would any person know they are being treated differently?

Think about it. Cop responds to a 911 call and investigates. He asks people for ID, et cetera. What indicates different treatment, especially to the people in the immediate situation?
 
That's a good question. I think it's a known fact that black people are viewed more suspiciously than white people. And there may be a valid reason for that. Neverthless, they are often treated differently.

The question still stands. How can a white, or black person state, with any certainty, that one, or the other is treated any differently by the cops?

A white person can't say that blacks are treated differently than whites, just like a black person can't say that blacks are treated any differently than whites. It's completely assinine to think otherwise.



Are you joking? In a state like Masachusetts, the people in bad neighborhoods are almost all minorities... That would lead a cop to be more suspicious of a minority than a white person, who tends to be the inhabitant of better neighborhoods. That can undoubtedly be frustrating for a normal minority who has done nothing wrong... in bad neighborhood or good. But that's no excuse to throw a tantrum like Gates did.

Powell worded it well.

And, you know this to be fact, how? Because you've bought into the BS, or what?
 
apstd said:
And, you know this to be fact, how? Because you've bought into the BS, or what?

52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black
The 57-year-old black barber from Spartanburg, S.C., believes the police stop, which did not result in a ticket or arrest, was motivated by his color -- a practice called racial profiling.

"It really burned me up," said Robinson.

He's not alone in seeing a pattern.

A majority of Americans, regardless of their race, believe that racial profiling is widespread in this country, says a new Gallup poll. And three-fourths of young black men in the poll say they believe they have been pulled over just because they are black.

Poll respondents were told, "It has been reported that police officers stop motorists of certain racial or ethnic groups because they believe that these groups are more likely than others to commit certain types of crimes." Then they were asked what they thought.

More than four out of 10 blacks of all ages and both genders said they believe they've been stopped because of their race, said the poll, part of Gallup's annual social audit of black-white relations.

"It was very skewed toward young black men, with 72 percent saying they've been stopped, many of them multiple times," Frank Newport, Gallup's editor in chief, said.

Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.

[NOTE: I know it for a fact because I have been around numerous people, including myself, that have racially profiled. People profile in a variety of ways... racial is not exluded just because it is politically taboo and arguably morally wrong.

It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.
 
Last edited:
52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police

Again, how do they know they're being treated differently than whites?

The 57-year-old black barber from Spartanburg, S.C., believes the police stop, which did not result in a ticket or arrest, was motivated by his color -- a practice called racial profiling.

Of course he believes that. Skip Gates believes it, too. I was stopped one time, because I was driving a red Peterbilt. An informant told US border patrol agents that a red Peterbilt was coming through Freer, Texas with several hundred kilos of cocaine. Should I have raised all kinds of hell because they were discriminating against red Peterbilts?
 
52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black


Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.

[NOTE: I know it for a fact because I have been around numerous people, including myself, that have racially profiled. People profile in a variety of ways... racial is not exluded just because it is politically taboo and arguably morally wrong.

It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.



If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be?

That all depends. First off, there's no way to know that the 19 y/o black kid is wearing baggy jeans, if he's driving a car. Second, if he's doing 60 in a 40, then his ass is getting pulled over for doing 20 mph over the speed limit, just like a white boy would.
 
52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black


Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.
What evidence? You have a majority of blacks and non-white Hispanics testifying they personally were discriminated against by police, and significant percentages believing that police do not treat minorities as well as whites.

Or do you?

An important note: The sample size of blacks and non-white Hispanics in this survey is relatively small, and the margin of error for the subset is 10 percentage points. By contrast, the margin of error for whites and the total sample is three points.
Additionally, how much credibility can we assign to a self-referential survey? Is the benchmark of determining discrimination simply the perception of the putatively discriminated?

More than four out of 10 blacks of all ages and both genders said they believe they've been stopped because of their race, said the poll, part of Gallup's annual social audit of black-white relations.
What is the potential for these statistics to be self-proving? If minorities "know" that police treat minorities differently, does that tinge their perceptions of their own interactions with the police, imparting perception of discrimination where perhaps otherwise there might be none?

Lots of numbers and statistics, but you still haven't addressed the question: How does a person know they are being treated differently? Beyond the self-referential (and therefore extremely biased and subjective) perceptions of individuals, what are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination by police?
 
It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.
Simple logic, but flawed logic.

Ferraris are not cheap, and the number of teenagers of any ethnicity legally driving one is likely to be very small--or is that age discrimination?

Ferraris are not cheap, and those who can afford them certainly have the means to dress out at will: baggy jeans and an oversize T-shirt would look as much out of place in a Ferrari as flannel shirts and bib overalls--or is that discrimination based on attire?

Additionally, baggy jeans and oversize shirts are not just worn by minorities.

Thus your example is flawed, because there are several discernible aspects of the scenario which are not racially oriented yet could make the driver seem suspicious.

Change your scenario to a young black professional decked out with a pastel polo shirt, leather jacket, Ray-ban sunglasses, and other fashion elements from the Sharper Image catalog, and you would have a more substantial argument.
 
Again, how do they know they're being treated differently than whites?
I have never been in car that was pulled over without substantial rationale. For African-Americans, there seems to be a consensus that many have experienced being pulled over with little or no rationale.



Of course he believes that. Skip Gates believes it, too. I was stopped one time, because I was driving a red Peterbilt. An informant told US border patrol agents that a red Peterbilt was coming through Freer, Texas with several hundred kilos of cocaine. Should I have raised all kinds of hell because they were discriminating against red Peterbilts?
Did I ever say profiling was generally bad? I would say it is innate for a person to profile. All I said is that it could be frustrating for people that are discriminated against when it is not in their power to change what profile they are befitting...

The color of a man's skin is a much different factor than the car he is driving.
 
Last edited:
I have never been in car that was pulled over without substantial rationale. For African-Americans, there seems to be a consensus that many have experienced being pulled over with little or no rationale.
By whose estimation? By what objective measure is there "little or no rationale"?

Everything that you've cited here summarizes thus: If blacks and minorities perceive they are being discriminated against, they are being discriminated against. The putatively aggrieved individual has total credibility, and the police office enjoys zero credibility, but there is no rational support offered for either position.

Again: What are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination?
 
What evidence? You have a majority of blacks and non-white Hispanics testifying they personally were discriminated against by police, and significant percentages believing that police do not treat minorities as well as whites.

Or do you?
Testimony from personal experience is evidence.

What is the potential for these statistics to be self-proving? If minorities "know" that police treat minorities differently, does that tinge their perceptions of their own interactions with the police, imparting perception of discrimination where perhaps otherwise there might be none?
Partially true but also flawed. With those kinds of numbers, it is an extremely tenuous claim to say that all assumed they were being racially profiled before looking to other conclusions. Put it into perspective: If your driving in Compton(assuming you are Caucasian) and you are pulled over with no legitimate rationale except that your driving in Compton, it is likely because you are a white male driving in compton. An officer may be suspicious of such activity that is out of place, and it is more possible(again depending on different personal attributes) that you are going to Compton to engage in illicit activity... or your just lost.

celticlord said:
Lots of numbers and statistics, but you still haven't addressed the question: How does a person know they are being treated differently? Beyond the self-referential (and therefore extremely biased and subjective) perceptions of individuals, what are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination by police?

That's assuming that somehow African-Americans think as a collective group. They don't. Being black is something you are born with, and bears absolutely nothing to who you are. So if a huge amount are agreeing that they have been treated unfairly in numerous polls(I can bring out more if you would like) than that speaks for itself.
 
By whose estimation? By what objective measure is there "little or no rationale"?

Everything that you've cited here summarizes thus: If blacks and minorities perceive they are being discriminated against, they are being discriminated against. The putatively aggrieved individual has total credibility, and the police office enjoys zero credibility, but there is no rational support offered for either position.

Again: What are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination?

I'll answer this and your other post after I go running.
 
Listen, Gates got treated no differently than a white guy in the same situation would have been treated.

I've got a fairly similar story myself.

I was doing a painting job for a friend, where I was painting his condo for him (which was on the ground level). I was taking a little break so I stepped out onto the patio to grab a smoke and some fresh air and apparently the neighbor saw me out of her window and called the police because she didn't recognize me and I guess that automatically means I'm a psychotic killer.

After a few minutes I went back inside and sat down for a minute. While I was sitting down, the patio door opened and I was looking at a cop.

I said "Hello?"

He jumped a bit and asked "Do you live here?"

I said "No, I'm actu-" and before I could finish saying I was painting the place for my friend who lives here, he pulled his gun, pointed it at me and and screamed "Get on the ground!"

I raised my hands and got on my face on the floor. He then jumped on my neck (as cops are wont to do) and started cuffing me while asking me what I was doing there, and I told him.

It started to dawn on him what the smell was and that I was in paint covered overalls.


In the end, I was let go, but had I decided to throw a tantrum, my ass would have been hauled in, or even shot.

It was not about race. Blacks might think they treated differently, but I've been treated as bad or worse than many of the incidents I read about.

**** happens. It's not a reason to throw a tantrum.
 
Testimony from personal experience is evidence.
It is? Of what is it evidence?

Partially true but also flawed. With those kinds of numbers, it is an extremely tenuous claim to say that all assumed they were being racially profiled before looking to other conclusions.
If I were making that assumption, you would have a point. However, I did not make that assumption, nor did I even imply that assumption--it's not necessary for my question to be raised. The data is quite explicit that it is a compilation of people's perceptions--how they believe they themselves are being treated; it is an imputation of motive by the polled person to the police, and we are given no objective non-self-referential data with which to evaluate the credibility of the respondents claims. They might be right; they might not be right--we cannot say because, based on the articles presented, we simply do not know.

That's assuming that somehow African-Americans think as a collective group. They don't. Being black is something you are born with, and bears absolutely nothing to who you are. So if a huge amount are agreeing that they have been treated unfairly in numerous polls(I can bring out more if you would like) than that speaks for itself.
No, that assumption is also not required--no collective groupthink is required or even implied.

Moreover, it does not matter how many polls or reams of data you bring out, because trundling out a laundry list of people who say they have been unfairly treated, with no objective supporting data to validate their perceptions, still does not speak to my question:

How does one know one is the victim of discrimination? What are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination?

Or, to put it another way, if we assume that we will be discriminated against by the police, does that assumption raise the likelihood we will perceive interactions with the police as having been instances of discrimination?

Or are you arguing that discrimination exists merely because people claim to have been discriminated against?
 
I would have voted for Colin Powell over McCain OR Obama.

Now THERE is a man who has earned and deserves the respect of the entire country.

I firmly believe that his principles weighed on his conscience so much he had to leave the Bush administration.

Sure, he pissed me off in his lap-dog attempt to sell America Bush's lop-sided Iraqi agenda. But I could tell even then he was reading from the script and was "taking one for the team" in good faith. But he realized, more and more, what he was doing, and where it was going, and Mr. Good-Judgement (coupled with honorable conscience,) kicked in and he gracefully withdrew.
In his heart of hearts, I believe that, initially, he thought what he was doing was right, selling Bush's propaganda. But he also realized that Bush was using his (Powell's) credibility to sell his snake oil.

Even being a major player in the GOP he stood firm on his principle and his sincere concern for our nation and rebuked the GOP candidate. That took balls. How quick our so called "patriots" turned on this war hero when he jumped partisan ship, but I digress. (The beat goes on. :roll:)

I don't think there is a racist bone in Powell's body. He is a realist, who realized the error of his ways and changed them. And I admire the man very much.
 
Often in life everyone is an asshole, indeed more often than not.

So the police officer was just doing his job and Gates should not have turned the entire incident into another Selma March, he should have just said here is the proof I live here and thank you officer for protecting my property, but when Gates got all hot headed the cop should have respected that line of arrest.

Arrest is a serious thing; a very significant power to use, one should not be arrested simply for being an asshole.

If this were the case I would have spent my entire life in prison.
 
Back
Top Bottom