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Thread: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

  1. #121
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    You still haven't convinced me, so I've got to ask:

    Do you know this factually & specifically, or are you surmising?

    Because testing often requires specific reactants or reagents that may not be commonly available, along with often requiring specialized analytical and other specialized lab equipment. Looking for bugs on a slide under a microscope is full of quaint lore, but that's not how many diseases today are detected.
    In California, there is increasing access to testing at public health laboratories that have received CDC test kits. Other clinical laboratories may perform diagnostic tests authorized by the FDA under an Emergency Use Authorization.
    As Coronavirus Spreads, Experts Explain When to Call a Doctor, How Testing Works and More | UC San Francisco


    It's a "get 'er done". A matter of will. There's nothing stopping us from accomplishing this.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 03-09-20 at 01:27 AM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The moment you mention Traverse you are talking sand dunes and a lot of fun with dune buggies. At least that was they way back then.
    And nice small waterfront towns.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  3. #123
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    You still haven't convinced me, so I've got to ask:

    Do you know this factually & specifically, or are you surmising?

    Because testing often requires specific reactants or reagents that may not be commonly available, along with often requiring specialized analytical and other specialized lab equipment. Looking for bugs on a slide under a microscope is full of quaint lore, but that's not how many diseases today are detected.
    Many facilities including state labs, private laboratories and academic hospitals can, and routinely do, develop their own tests. What happens in cases like this is the CDC issues an emergency and all tests that are developed have to be approved by the FDA (to ensure they are accurate and safe) No one applied for an FDA waiver right away, trusting the CDC test it had announced back in January would work and be distributed in less time than it would take to get cleared by the FDA to produce their own test.

    Didn't work out that way, but basically Eco is right. (Are they ever really wrong?)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...3a7_story.html

  4. #124
    global liberation

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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Wouldn't it be nice, for a change, if instead of BS about logistics and test kits, the President held a press conference and said:


    There's nothing stopping us from helping these people. We've figured out the logistics and we're getting those people, safely (to include personal safety gear), to clinical laboratories. We'll test them at clinical laboratories under the Emergency Act. We'll quarantine and treat the sick. We'll release the unaffected. We will not permit floating death on our shores. We will act decisively and overcome any obstacles. America is a safe haven, not a stander-by. We'll get it done.


    But we don't have that kind of President. We have an excuse maker.

  5. #125
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Yes. But what equipment and supplies does the "clinical lab" require?

    I think you may be underestimating the technical complexity & difficulty of the task. You initially claimed "any hospital" can do it (without the kit). You haven't produced any evidence of this. And I suspect if it were that easy, every hospital would be doing it! No?

    Look, if you have specific knowledge as to what's required to do this test, then that's fine. But if you're surmising any hospital can do this with what they ordinarily have at hand, that's very possibly an errant hypothesis.

    My career in technology took me through a stint in medical diagnostics equipment. I was not involved with the biology, but I was involved in developing the hardware. While I don't know the specific biology, I can assure you the testing we developed was extremely complex involving specialized equipment, specialized reactants & reagents, and conditions that were not usually available at clinics and hospitals. In fact, the reactants & reagents were often the predominate marketable products, where they were our intellectual property, and in some of those cases we gave the equipment we developed away at cost in order to sell our high-profit protected assay support products.

    So unless you specifically know the testing methodology, I don't see how you can make your claim with certainty.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  6. #126
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yes. But what equipment and supplies does the "clinical lab" require?

    I think you may be underestimating the technical complexity & difficulty of the task. You initially claimed "any hospital" can do it (without the kit). You haven't produced any evidence of this. And I suspect if it were that easy, every hospital would be doing it! No?
    My link is from the University of California, San Francisco's hospital. It claims clinical laboratories are authorized to employ FDA approved diagnostics under the Emergency Act. Whatever those requirements may be, the University of California San Fran claims they can do it. To my reading, any clinical laboratory is capable.

    Hospitals are testing without kits all over the country. Not every positive test was a kit.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 03-09-20 at 01:57 AM.

  7. #127
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yes. But what equipment and supplies does the "clinical lab" require?

    I think you may be underestimating the technical complexity & difficulty of the task. You initially claimed "any hospital" can do it (without the kit). You haven't produced any evidence of this. And I suspect if it were that easy, every hospital would be doing it! No?

    Look, if you have specific knowledge as to what's required to do this test, then that's fine. But if you're surmising any hospital can do this with what they ordinarily have at hand, that's very possibly an errant hypothesis.

    My career in technology took me through a stint in medical diagnostics equipment. I was not involved with the biology, but I was involved in developing the hardware. While I don't know the specific biology, I can assure you the testing we developed was extremely complex involving specialized equipment, specialized reactants & reagents, and conditions that were not usually available at clinics and hospitals. In fact, the reactants & reagents were often the predominate marketable products, where they were our intellectual property, and in some of those cases we gave the equipment we developed away at cost in order to sell our high-profit protected assay support products.

    So unless you specifically know the testing methodology, I don't see how you can make your claim with certainty.
    If you’re not quarantined on an air base or cruise ship, the only way to get a coronavirus test is through a healthcare professional, according to the National Institutes of Health website.

    If your doctor thinks you might have the coronavirus, he or she will contact the CDC or your local health department for instructions on testing.

    According to the Association of Public Health Laboratories, there are 69 local and state public health labs that cover 46 states, including Washington D.C.

    The five states that await lab verification are Wyoming, Oklahoma, Alabama, Ohio and West Virginia. There are 12 additional labs in the verification progress, three of which should be testing by the weekend.

    When all the selected labs have been verified, there will be 100 local and state public health labs testing, with a potential testing capacity of 10,000 tests per day.

    A few private companies are also testing.

    LabCorp developed its own test and began testing Thursday. According to the company, the new test detects the presence of the underlying virus that causes COVID-19.

    Quest Diagnostics said it can start receiving samples from doctors for testing on Monday. It’s unclear if only select labs or all labs will be testing. The company didn’t immediately respond to USA TODAY’s request for comment.
    Coronavirus test kit: How can I get tested in US for COVID-19 virus?


    We can test them. Right now.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 03-09-20 at 02:08 AM.

  8. #128
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Metric Mouse View Post
    Many facilities including state labs, private laboratories and academic hospitals can, and routinely do, develop their own tests. What happens in cases like this is the CDC issues an emergency and all tests that are developed have to be approved by the FDA (to ensure they are accurate and safe) No one applied for an FDA waiver right away, trusting the CDC test it had announced back in January would work and be distributed in less time than it would take to get cleared by the FDA to produce their own test.

    Didn't work out that way, but basically Eco is right. (Are they ever really wrong?)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...3a7_story.html
    Thanks for weighing-in to provide context.

    This explanation may be fair, but it still reflects that the hospitals in general had not developed adequate testing protocols & systems. Nor do we no how long it would take them to successfully do it. If it was simple at the time to do the tests, they would have been done. So to say the peeps on the ship could be 'tested by any hospital' does not seem to be true at that time. It may be coming true for certain hospitals, labs, or clinics, now. But it was not true at the time of the incident. And having seen some of this stuff even though I don't have knowledge of the biology, I can say that without knowing the specific methodology of the testing - you guys are surmising at how easy it is to test for this specific virus. but it may be more complex and more specialized than you realize.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  9. #129
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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    My link is from the University of California, San Francisco's hospital. It claims clinical laboratories are authorized to employ FDA approved diagnostics under the Emergency Act. Whatever those requirements may be, the University of California San Fran claims they can do it. To my reading, any clinical laboratory is capable.

    Hospitals are testing without kits all over the country. Not every positive test was a kit.
    Alright, thanks for presenting your argument. I'm not going to beat this to death. It seems that for whatever reason, testing was not initially available at the hospital & clinic level. And that was not a good thing at all.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

  10. #130
    global liberation

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    Re: Trump...wants to keep...cruise passengers on the ship so... virus #s dont go up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    This explanation may be fair, but it still reflects that the hospitals in general had not developed adequate testing protocols & systems. Nor do we no how long it would take them to successfully do it. If it was simple at the time to do the tests, they would have been done. So to say the peeps on the ship could be 'tested by any hospital' does not seem to be true at that time. It may be coming true for certain hospitals, labs, or clinics, now. But it was not true at the time of the incident. And having seen some of this stuff even though I don't have knowledge of the biology, I can say that without knowing the specific methodology of the testing - you guys are surmising at how easy it is to test for this specific virus. but it may be more complex and more specialized than you realize.
    We're thinking along the same lines. You posted that while I posted #127. I don't know the methods, but I know how many labs have been certified. That article was two days ago.

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