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Texas Gov Announces Investigation Into Case Of Mother Transitioning 7-Year-Old James Younger Against

Visbek said:
Very complicated.

Yes, and a key point of the custody battle is how to best handle a child in a difficult situation, where the parents do not agree on how to handle that situation.

:roll:

As already discussed, there are multiple therapists and doctors and experts involved on both sides of the debate. This is not trivial.

As already discussed, there are no plans for any surgical intervention for at least a decade. There aren't even any concrete plans at this time for medicinal interventions.

As already discussed, the "watchful waiting" approach that you are implicitly endorsing is outdated and not found to be beneficial. It's also obviously based in the assumption that "transgenderism in children is not real" -- even though we know there is very likely prenatal and/or hereditary factors involved.

I.e. Your repeated unscientific transphobic minimization of this situation is noted.
Click to expand...

Very crazy. At best.

It's simple: Leave. Him. Alone.

Your profound >wisdom< is noted as well. :roll:
 
3leftsdoo said:
Very crazy. At best.

It's simple: Leave. Him. Alone.

Your profound >wisdom< is noted as well. :roll:
Click to expand...

Leaving him alone doesn't work if the child is transgendered. You can no more delay care and have the person survive than you can for someone who has cancer or diabetes. You have had your head filled with religious nonsense about what happens during the treatment process. Just the diagnosis for adults is more than 3 months with 1 hour or 90-minute appointments every 2 weeks, so it is much longer for teens and preteens.

Go to Susan Place and post your wild claims and you will be laughed off of the site by people who are currently going through the process.

Susan's Place Transgender Resources - Index
 
Lisa said:
Leaving him alone doesn't work if the child is transgendered. You can no more delay care and have the person survive than you can for someone who has cancer or diabetes. You have had your head filled with religious nonsense about what happens during the treatment process. Just the diagnosis for adults is more than 3 months with 1 hour or 90-minute appointments every 2 weeks, so it is much longer for teens and preteens.

Go to Susan Place and post your wild claims and you will be laughed off of the site by people who are currently going through the process.

Susan's Place Transgender Resources - Index
Click to expand...

A documentary about people obsessed with amputation.

Kevin, a university lecturer and one of several wannabes featured in the film, had his leg amputated by Robert Smith, a surgeon in Scotland who has amputated the legs of two otherwise healthy people. George Boyer shot his own leg off with a shotgun. Others have used chain saws and homemade guillotines.
 
3leftsdoo said:
A documentary about people obsessed with amputation.

Kevin, a university lecturer and one of several wannabes featured in the film, had his leg amputated by Robert Smith, a surgeon in Scotland who has amputated the legs of two otherwise healthy people. George Boyer shot his own leg off with a shotgun. Others have used chain saws and homemade guillotines.
Click to expand...

Why is it that you need to respond with these red herrings? These are the same sort of arguments that during the LGBT marriage discussion that who opposed equal marriage rights claimed that if the SCOTUS allowed LGBT people to marry the consenting adult of their choice that soon there would be people who would want to marry, dogs, trees, farm imp[limnts and corpses. Instead of invoking these fallacious claims you might choose to stick to the argument at hand.

If what you are suggesting was true then trans' people could be treated with medication for delusions. That was tried in the past and it didn't work, but since the sites that you read didn't tell you of that you don't know not to make these claims.

We might try to put Risperadol that does treat delusions in communiom wine and then people wouldn't think that they could have a relationship with a god that doesn't exist or trying to force others to live by their religious beliefs of a non-existant god
 
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Lisa said:
Leaving him alone doesn't work if the child is transgendered. You can no more delay care and have the person survive than you can for someone who has cancer or diabetes.
Click to expand...

This is a grotesque exaggeration.

​
Lisa said:
You have had your head filled with religious nonsense about what happens during the treatment process. Just the diagnosis for adults is more than 3 months with 1 hour or 90-minute appointments every 2 weeks, so it is much longer for teens and preteens.
Click to expand...

James Younger is neither a teen nor a pre-teen. He is a 7-year old, a second-grader.

​
Lisa said:
Go to Susan Place and post your wild claims and you will be laughed off of the site by people who are currently going through the process.

Susan's Place Transgender Resources - Index
Click to expand...

I did and now find hilarious your insistence that others use what you regard as respected sources. I did go to Susan's Place. I hope it's extremely helpful both for its links and the opportunity to participate in its forums/chat. But it is what it is.

When I typed "James Younger" in the homepage search bar, it pulled up a blank page. Several times. When I looked at Susan Larson's narrative page, there was also a search bar, so I tried that too. And I looked through several of the fora, including the one devoted to legal issues and the one devoted child custody: Child Custody (The awarding of) and transsexuals - Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I found nothing. It's true that I didn't look at any threads earlier than 10-21 because the James Younger story didn't become big news until 10-24. Maybe I've missed something, so perhaps you can link me up with any discussions of James Younger or other young children.
 
3leftsdoo said:
Very crazy. At best.

It's simple: Leave. Him. Alone.

Your profound >wisdom< is noted as well. :roll:
Click to expand...

I agree. Leave him alone. Especially if you're the Governor of Texas.
 
Visbek said:
Very complicated.



Yes, and a key point of the custody battle is how to best handle a child in a difficult situation, where the parents do not agree on how to handle that situation.



:roll:

As already discussed, there are multiple therapists and doctors and experts involved on both sides of the debate. This is not trivial.

As already discussed, there are no plans for any surgical intervention for at least a decade. There aren't even any concrete plans at this time for medicinal interventions.

As already discussed, the "watchful waiting" approach that you are implicitly endorsing is outdated and not found to be beneficial. It's also obviously based in the assumption that "transgenderism in children is not real" -- even though we know there is very likely prenatal and/or hereditary factors involved.

I.e. Your repeated unscientific transphobic minimization of this situation is noted.
Click to expand...

Calling those who disagree with you transphobic is unfair.

If you're claiming that "watchful waiting" is settled science, please produce links. I really don't understand how you can claim that it's not beneficial when studies indicate that the great majority of young children with gender dysphoria do not persist in this.
 
nota bene said:
This is a grotesque exaggeration.



James Younger is neither a teen nor a pre-teen. He is a 7-year old, a second-grader.



I did and now find hilarious your insistence that others use what you regard as respected sources. I did go to Susan's Place. I hope it's extremely helpful both for its links and the opportunity to participate in its forums/chat. But it is what it is.



I found nothing. It's true that I didn't look at any threads earlier than 10-21 because the James Younger story didn't become big news until 10-24. Maybe I've missed something, so perhaps you can link me up with any discussions of James Younger or other young children.​
​
Click to expand...


If this child is 7 then nothing much will happen for 5+ years because hormones blockers are not administered until that time. How hard is this idea for you to understand? Who is telling you otherwise?


I didn't say that the site had pages on this issue. I said that you should register for that site and make the same claims over there that you have made in multiple threads. They will be more than willing to educate you, maybe in a fashion that you don't appreciate because some of them can be quite militant.​
​
 
Lisa said:
If this child is 7 then nothing much will happen for 5+ years because hormones blockers are not administered until that time. How hard is this idea for you to understand? Who is telling you otherwise?

I didn't say that the site had pages on this issue. I said that you should register for that site and make the same claims over there that you have made in multiple threads. They will be more than willing to educate you, maybe in a fashion that you don't appreciate because some of them can be quite militant.
Click to expand...

I can only imagine. As for your question, I can also only assume that you haven't bothered to read excerpts I've quoted or clicked on links I've provided. I'll repeat part of what I posted in #280:

The mother's witness, Benjamin Albritton, M.D., has spent the most time with James Younger, at least a half-year. From the The Texan:

Odeneal [Jeff Younger's attorney] has also repeatedly contended that Georgulas does intend to pursue a medical gender transition for James, citing medical records that note James would be referred to doctors at the GENecis clinic for puberty suppression once he reached eight or nine years old.

When these notes were presented to Albritton, he said that he had seen them before but did not include them in his final report for the court because he did not think it seemed relevant.

Hearing in Custody Battle Over Alleged Transgender Seven-Year-Old Will Resume Next Week | The Texan

He didn't think this was relevant. :roll:

So there are medical records indicating that James Younger would be referred to the Genecis Clinic for puberty suppression when he reached 8 or 9, and Dr. Albritton, the mother's paid witness, said he didn't mention it in his final report because he didn't think it was relevant.

I hope this helps.
 
nota bene said:
I can only imagine. As for your question, I can also only assume that you haven't bothered to read excerpts I've quoted or clicked on links I've provided. I'll repeat part of what I posted in #280:

The mother's witness, Benjamin Albritton, M.D., has spent the most time with James Younger, at least a half-year. From the The Texan:

Odeneal [Jeff Younger's attorney] has also repeatedly contended that Georgulas does intend to pursue a medical gender transition for James, citing medical records that note James would be referred to doctors at the GENecis clinic for puberty suppression once he reached eight or nine years old.

When these notes were presented to Albritton, he said that he had seen them before but did not include them in his final report for the court because he did not think it seemed relevant.

Hearing in Custody Battle Over Alleged Transgender Seven-Year-Old Will Resume Next Week | The Texan

He didn't think this was relevant. :roll:

So there are medical records indicating that James Younger would be referred to the Genecis Clinic for puberty suppression when he reached 8 or 9, and Dr. Albritton, the mother's paid witness, said he didn't mention it in his final report because he didn't think it was relevant.

I hope this helps.
Click to expand...

The child would be part of the gender program but nothing medically happens until they are 11-12. That means that she would be monitored by psychologists(s) every month and would receive the normal well-child physicals until then. Her body is not sufficiently matured to need the hormones or blockers, just like her CIS peers. Is this concept difficult for you to understand?
 
Lisa said:
Why is it that you need to respond with these red herrings? These are the same sort of arguments that during the LGBT marriage discussion that who opposed equal marriage rights claimed that if the SCOTUS allowed LGBT people to marry the consenting adult of their choice that soon there would be people who would want to marry, dogs, trees, farm imp[limnts and corpses. Instead of invoking these fallacious claims you might choose to stick to the argument at hand.

If what you are suggesting was true then trans' people could be treated with medication for delusions. That was tried in the past and it didn't work, but since the sites that you read didn't tell you of that you don't know not to make these claims.

We might try to put Risperadol that does treat delusions in communiom wine and then people wouldn't think that they could have a relationship with a god that doesn't exist or trying to force others to live by their religious beliefs of a non-existant god
Click to expand...

A lady married a roller coaster.

But pirate conversion therapi$t$ say the kid's a pirate?

He needs to start walking the plank now in preparation for eye/hand/leg removal later.

Otherwise, it's child abuse.

:thumbs:
 
Lisa said:
The child would be part of the gender program but nothing medically happens until they are 11-12. That means that she would be monitored by psychologists(s) every month and would receive the normal well-child physicals until then. Her body is not sufficiently matured to need the hormones or blockers, just like her CIS peers. Is this concept difficult for you to understand?
Click to expand...

Oh - 11 or 12.

If he were doing pirate conversion, they wouldn't chop his hand off til he was 14.

So yeah - pump that kid fulla drugs!

:thumbs:
 
Lisa said:
The child would be part of the gender program but nothing medically happens until they are 11-12. That means that she would be monitored by psychologists(s) every month and would receive the normal well-child physicals until then. Her body is not sufficiently matured to need the hormones or blockers, just like her CIS peers. Is this concept difficult for you to understand?
Click to expand...

Again, are you able to post without being snarky?

And "Luna" is already happening, By the way, do you think that being monitored monthly by psychologists is the normal childhood experience?
 
nota bene said:
Again, are you able to post without being snarky?

And "Luna" is already happening, By the way, do you think that being monitored monthly by psychologists is the normal childhood experience?
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Probably so with a mother telling him he was a girl since 3 yrs old
 
Lisa said:
Leaving him alone doesn't work if the child is transgendered.]
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Actually for most it simply goes away as they grow up. But I suspect preventing a boy from becoming a man with puberty blockers is the most effective way to ensure that it stays.
 
nota bene said:
If you're claiming that "watchful waiting" is settled science, please produce links.
Click to expand...
As discussed in post #275, some of the links are in the American Association of Pediatricians guidelines article.
Ensuring Comprehensive Care and Support for Transgender and Gender-Diverse Children and Adolescents | American Academy of Pediatrics

It's the same as the "Dutch Protocol" which I believe Lisa has also discussed.

This article also discusses recent research, as well as observations by those working in the field.
https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/355235


I really don't understand how you can claim that it's not beneficial when studies indicate that the great majority of young children with gender dysphoria do not persist in this.
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Start with the links above above.

To continue/summarize, there are issues with those earlier studies, much of which is wrapped up with misunderstandings and stigmas around LGBT individuals, especially minors. This can work in many ways, including children facing so much harassment that they try to suppress their feelings and conform to gender norms. It can also result in parents who conflate homosexual impulses as a gender issue (especially in children who are biologically male), thus throwing off the initial counts. The changes in classification from "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria" in the DSM-V (2013) also have an impact, as the DSM-IV (1994) classifications were much stricter. We should note that therapists and researchers today are aware of these issues, i.e. they generally know to distinguish boys with homosexual impulses that lead to non-gender conforming behavior from possible cases of gender dysphoria.

Other studies supporting the "desistance" claims have methodological problems. E.g. one widely cited study tracked 127 children who were brought to a clinic for gender issues. The study claimed that 80 children "desisted" -- but it turns out that 28 of those 80 families simply did not respond to the follow-up surveys. The valid practice should be to exclude those results, not count them as answers. Another 38 of the children did not fit all of the diagnostic criteria at the start of the study. Oddly enough, that study was not actually trying to track persistence at all; rather, the purpose was to find possible predictors of desistance. (E.g. the child saying saying "I am a girl" is a stronger predictor than "I wish I was a girl.")

I do think more research is needed, but I see little reason to second-guess therapists who have expertise in the field, and actually worked with the child in question.
 
nota bene said:
So there are medical records indicating that James Younger would be referred to the Genecis Clinic for puberty suppression when he reached 8 or 9....
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Apparently, you missed a few things.

• The Genecis clinic does not do medical or surgical transitions at all. They only offer therapy. It would not be possible to refer a child to that clinic for "puberty suppression."

• The mother explicitly stated that she wanted the court to declare that both parents needed written consent before any treatment that involves "hormonal suppression, puberty blockers and/or transgender reassignment surgery."

• The mother said in court that she would only consider medical intervention if the child persisted in holding a female identity during adolescence. (Note: That's not "ages 8 or 9," that's "ages 11 through 14.")

• Doctors in that field will not prescribe puberty blockers or hormones to a child of that age.

And again: Neither the jury nor the judge, which heard a lot more than we have, concluded that the mother in any way posed a danger to this child. Hmmmm.
 
dixon01767 said:
Actually for most it simply goes away as they grow up. But I suspect preventing a boy from becoming a man with puberty blockers is the most effective way to ensure that it stays.
Click to expand...

Who or what site is telling you that this would happen? Doctors would not prescribe hormones or blockers to a tween or teen whose transgendered feelings were questionable. They certainly wouldn't do it to an adult. If the psychologist had any doubts as to the person's gender identity they would do more counseling and testing and not recommend that person for hormone therapy.

You cannot make a person have transgendered feelings by medicating them with blockers or hormones. Our gender identity is fixed before birth and cannot be changed. This was determined by the many failed experiments of John Money. He tried to change a person's gender identity who as the victim of a failed circumcision with hormones and psychotherapy. It didn't work and David Reimer committed suicide a few years later. His actions are seen as so horrific in the medical community that it was made into an episode of Law and order SVU.

Intersex Initiative: News - NBC's "Law & Order: SVU" Episode Based on "John/Joan" Case
 
dixon01767 said:
Probably so with a mother telling him he was a girl since 3 yrs old
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That would be an example of child abuse and the child would be removed from the home if it were true. Can you prove that claim or is it just your feelings?
 
nota bene said:
Again, are you able to post without being snarky?

And "Luna" is already happening, By the way, do you think that being monitored monthly by psychologists is the normal childhood experience?
Click to expand...

It is normal if the child is possibly transgendered. Is it a problem for you that the child will be monitered for 4-5 years? If her feelings change then the situation will be closed and nothing happens. if they stay the same or get stringer then she will be prescribed blockers and then hormones, starting at 12 years of age or older. This is obviously a very high profile case so the doctors will be very careful about how they proceed. Every decision will likely have a concurring second opinion.

What is your idea that is better for the child?
 
Visbek said:
I do think more research is needed, but I see little reason to second-guess therapists who have expertise in the field, and actually worked with the child in question.
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I do. The court findings that the kid doesn't have gender dysphoria according to the therapists own definition which requires "significant distress". And those same therapists diagnosis of suffering from gender dysphoria in this case.
 
Lisa said:
That would be an example of child abuse and the child would be removed from the home if it were true. Can you prove that claim or is it just your feelings?
Click to expand...

No, we have only the video recorded word of a 3 yr old stating his mother told him he was a girl. I agree its child abuse.
 
Lisa said:
.

You cannot make a person have transgendered feelings by medicating them with blockers or hormones. ]
Click to expand...

No but you can certainly add to a young boys gender confusion by medically preventing him from becoming a man.
 
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