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Trump and the dead end of conservative nationalism

ocean515 said:
Why is it that liberal socialist progressives don't believe the evolution of mankind?

Why do nations exist?

Why did the evolution of the human race lead to the creation of Nation States?

What was the purpose and why did mankind create borders and the means to defend them?

It seems this new extreme left has no connection to the history of mankind, and it reject evolution, which is surprising.

Do they not realize that at no time in recorded history did peoples of all types and cultures live together peacefully in borderless lands?
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If I or the article argued for borderless lands you'd have a point. The speaker and the article are talking about legal immigration policies, public policies, and none of the article or the talk that I quoted extensively have a damn thing to do with illegal immigration.
 
JasperL said:
If I or the article argued for borderless lands you'd have a point. The speaker and the article are talking about legal immigration policies, public policies, and none of the article or the talk that I quoted extensively have a damn thing to do with illegal immigration.
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I didn't mention illegal immigration. I spoke to the fact that "common ground" among citizens has been the historical standard mankind has pursued.

Liberals appear to reject this fact.
 
JasperL said:
I directly addressed this charge at #2, and posted her comments in context so we can all read them for ourselves. :confused:

In my own discussion, I also tried to give her comments their intended meaning. If you think I didn't, you can explain how if you want.
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Good luck with that!
 
Master Debator said:
If you make a claim you don't think your obligated to prove said claim?

Prove I'm right about what? Your the one making the claim in this scenario. Do you not know how debate works?
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I can answer that one!! No. What's my prize?
 
ocean515 said:
I didn't mention illegal immigration. I spoke to the fact that "common ground" among citizens has been the historical standard mankind has pursued.

Liberals appear to reject this fact.
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What are you suggesting that liberals reject? Is this another attempt to falsely claim that we support open borders? Would you prefer if the immigrants accepted into the US were only white people? Maybe instead of trying to preserve the white Christian majority, you could instead support the idea that all people are treated equally, regardless of race, creed color, gender, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability and other? Are conservatives scared of being equals in a multicultural society?

This concept seems to be driving much of the animus felt by Trump supporters.
When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression
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White conservative males have treated others like dirt for the past 500+ years and you are terrified that others are going to do to you what you have been doing to them. maybe you should stop trying to keep others as second class citizens and treat them as you want to be treated. If you are a Christian, Jesus commands you to do this. Luke 6:31, Matthew 7:12. ......unless that passage is not included in the Trump bible.
 
ocean515 said:
I didn't mention illegal immigration. I spoke to the fact that "common ground" among citizens has been the historical standard mankind has pursued.

Liberals appear to reject this fact.
Click to expand...

"What was the purpose and why did mankind create borders and the means to defend them?

It seems this new extreme left has no connection to the history of mankind, and it reject evolution, which is surprising.

Do they not realize that at no time in recorded history did peoples of all types and cultures live together peacefully in borderless lands?"

No one suggest borderless lands, or not having borders or not defending them. And we HAVE a lot of common ground with Hispanics, for example - family oriented, often religious, hard work, industry, and they've been a huge part of U.S. culture since the beginning. Now we don't have any common ground with them?

BTW, when Poles and Jews and the Irish and Italians and many more came here, the same charges were leveled against them - unAmerican, dregs of society, etc.

And the point really is the immigration policies she advocates for and that are the new "conservative nationalism" at least as expressed by Trump are in effect white nationalism, but no one will claim the term. People like me look at the policies and say, "That's white nationalism" and everyone says "NOOOOO!!!! that's not what it is!!!" But then Dr. Wax says, well, yes, that's exactly what it is in practice. So how can we liberals tell the difference between white nationalism, or policies and attitudes that look just exactly like white nationalism, but are REALLY "cultural distance" and have nothing to do with race except that the impact is the same as if race had everything to do with it?
 
A serious question: is there any "nationalism" in America that is not "white nationalism"?

I'm a patriotic s.o.b. I fly the flag on national holidays, carry a copy of the Constitution, I volunteered and served 30 years in uniform, and believe strongly in the values of our great nation. But that includes being an example for the world, honoring those principles or forebears fought and sacrificed for, and that includes the inscription on the Statute of Liberty. We've inspired generations the world over by welcoming the huddled masses yearning to be free - because that is what we represent to the world. We've been at the forefront of protecting liberty. Now we have people wrapping themselves in patriotic garb while sullying the principles upon which the nation is built. That's not "nationalism" - its certainly not patriotic. That's fraud. Americans come in all colors, they have different religious beliefs and don't share political affiliations or backgrounds. An American in Maine, or Georgia, or Louisiana, or Los Angeles is still American, though they're very, very different. Native Americans, 6th generation Wasps, descendants of slaves, and first generation immigrants all share common roots in our soil. So those claiming the mantle of "true Americans" and shouting nationalistic rhetoric do not speak for me, don't represent me, and can go hang, as far as I am concerned. I'm sick of racism masquerading as patriotism.
 
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marke said:
It is always the energized ignorant who never attempt to prove their positions but always demand others prove theirs or be considered "proven wrong." You cannot "prove" someone is wrong if you cannot present facts supporting your 'proof.'
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“who never attempt to prove their positions but always demand others prove theirs or be considered ‘proven wrong’."

I never said any such thing. That one fails to prove a claim does not mean the claim made has been proven wrong. It means the claim made is simply unfounded unless evidence provided proves the claim is plain wrong.

“You cannot "prove" someone is wrong if you cannot present facts supporting your 'proof.'”

I agree. However, I don’t have to prove a person is wrong in order to deny the validity of a claim made by that person. A claim without proof is an unfounded claim. That person is only wrong as to the claim having any supporting evidence of proof. The claim could still be true, but it cannot be said proven to be true.
 
joko104 said:
Being a democracy, every person from another country and different background ultimately will affect our society, our government and our laws. It is the most simplistic logic that if people are intensely anti-secular, sexist, xenophobic, intolerant, oppose many civil and human rights - that person will move our society, government and laws ever so slightly in that direction.

Bringing in uneducated and impoverished Somalians brings the values of Somalian culture, values and laws into our society, government and laws. That is how democracy works.

Accordingly, who we should allow in are those who MOST are aligned to our core values, laws, rights and accepted moral codes and concepts of freedom and rights - including equality.
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Norwegians, I presume.
 
Nickyjo said:
Norwegians, I presume.
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They don't have to be Norwegian, they could be other Scandinavians, or Northern or Western European, as long as they can pass a DNA purity test...
 
I taught "The law of war" and "rules of engagement" to thousands of Soldiers. I constantly got the question: why do we follow the rules when "the enemy" doesn't? There's two parts to the answer: 1. We're Americans. We set the example; were known for setting the example; 2. It works. In Iraq we took hundreds of thousands of POWs. How? Because they surrendered to us believing that we represented a better world than their leadership did. That's the American promise. We should honor it.
 
truthatallcost said:
This is the crux of the inability on behalf of liberals to understand that people are not the malleable clay that Marx said they were. We can't raise IQ with education. We can't impart our culture on immigrants whose cultures don't contain any similarities with ours.

Minneapolis is a perfect example of the inability of some cultures to assimilate. The Somalians living there prefer to keep to their own clannish neighborhoods, and are even at odds with the local African American community. One African American homicide detective said that it's virtually impossible for him to solve a crime if it occurs in a Somali neighborhood, because even though he has the same skin color as the people from that neighborhood, they consider him an outsider and refuse to speak to him. Race isn't the problem here, its culture.
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And Minneapolis in 2019 is different from Little Italy in 1909 how? Btw, visited the neighborhood. Quite nice.
 
notquiteright said:
Nativist tripe.

The ignorant fear of those 'not like us' sadly is as American as apple pie. It is simplistic logic that if a people are sexist, xenophobic, intolerant, and oppose many civil and human rights- those people HAVE moved our society, government, and laws in that direction. From the current occupant of the White House to those who chant- "send her back!"... :doh

But your whine has been with us for centuries- the Irish were seen as ignorant, drunkards, who obey not our President and our laws but a Pope in Rome and his laws...

The German immigrants from the early 1800's were considered more cattle than men and thought to never be able to vote their own minds but what their 'leaders' told them to vote.

The EYE-talians had strict immigration quotas placed on them and they were one of the first undocumented immigrants- the slur WOPS comes from immigration stamp With Out Papers.... They didn't look WASP, and again would obey a Pope in Rome and follow his edicts.

Today Nativists praise this when it suits their agenda on same sex marriage and abortion issues, it is a strange new world... :roll:

But the Nativists forget so many of us who were born here come from very humble immigrants. Except for a few English immigrants most of our forefathers didn't speak English and most likely never learned more than a handful. I'd opine if we had to meet the demands of immigration and citizenship we would fail.

While some Nativists decry immigrants who gather in enclaves and keep much of their homeland (like EVERY immigrant group from Little Italy to the Pennsylvania 'Dutch') they seem to not attack the Asians who proudly maintain so-called China Towns in many major cities.... :(

But ignore the children of these immigrants and their children might live next door, work beside them, date their daughters, some might even sign their paycheck.... ;)

No, these proud 'patriots' have a long history of attacking those not like us who want little more than what they themselves want- a nice house right just like yours- and hate the Dallas Cowboys!!! :peace
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Great stuff. My favorite argument was one I saw from a hundred years ago: yes Irish, Jews, and southern Italians are white, but barely... They come from the extremes of Europe, the far northwest, east and south respectively.

And doesn't anyone read history? This sort of stuff has been going on since before the Civil War, with the Know-Nothings. Supposedly Ben Franklin complained about a new wave of arriving Germans.

Of course, Blazing Saddles put it best, when the mayor of Rock Ridge said, "we'll take the niggers and the chinks, but we won't take the Irish!"
 
NWRatCon said:
A serious question: is there any "nationalism" in America that is not "white nationalism"?

I'm a patriotic s.o.b. I fly the flag on national holidays, carry a copy of the Constitution, I volunteered and served 30 years in uniform, and believe strongly in the values of our great nation. But that includes being an example for the world, honoring those principles or forebears fought and sacrificed for, and that includes the inscription on the Statute of Liberty. We've inspired generations the world over by welcoming the huddled masses yearning to be free - because that is what we represent to the world. We've been at the forefront of protecting liberty. Now we have people wrapping themselves in patriotic garb while sullying the principles upon which the nation is built. That's not "nationalism" - its certainly not patriotic. That's fraud. Americans come in all colors, they have different religious beliefs and don't share political affiliations or backgrounds. An American in Maine, or Georgia, or Louisiana, or Los Angeles is still American, though they're very, very different. Native Americans, 6th generation Wasps, descendants of slaves, and first generation immigrants all share common roots in our soil. So those claiming the mantle of "true Americans" and shouting nationalistic rhetoric do not speak for me, don't represent me, and can go hang, as far as I am concerned. I'm sick of racism masquerading as patriotism.
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Sounds just like one of Ike's WW II Washington, D.C. born Pentagon staff sergeants getting Federal Lynching KKK churchstate of hate cops Mengele baptize thine eyes by urinations concentration camp defamations prior to extermination who passed a few weeks before 9/11 due to a nationalism patriot act of Christiananality pedophilia Islamophobia pseudo science ChristHitler reincarnated Nazis on Capital Hill.
 
saltydancin said:
Sounds just like one of Ike's WW II Washington, D.C. born Pentagon staff sergeants getting Federal Lynching KKK churchstate of hate cops Mengele baptize thine eyes by urinations concentration camp defamations prior to extermination who passed a few weeks before 9/11 due to a nationalism patriot act of Christiananality pedophilia Islamophobia pseudo science ChristHitler reincarnated Nazis on Capital Hill.
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The software has a glitch I think. Have you tried a hard reboot?
 
Lisa said:
The US is not now and never was a democracy. We are a constitutional republic with democratic elections of our representatives.
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That IS a democracy according to generally accepted definitions of the word.
And that's because only the Athenians tried direct pure democracy, and that was 2500 years ago.
When talk of democracy in the West arises, NOBODY is thinking of Athenian pure democracy.

The only people who feverishly push the "We are not a democracy" trope are those attempting to replace it with authoritarian dictatorship.
The goal is to eliminate respect for representative democracy as a whole. Some are incrementalists, advocating for Constitutional Conventions or repeal of the 17A and putting the Senate back in the hands of the elites.
Some are would-be "bomb throwing radicals" who would just as soon see a civil war erupt, hopefully culminating in a fake patriot overthrow, and installation of biblical rule.
The rest are just interested bystanders who will watch as one third of the people try to kill the other third.

We are a democracy, we are exactly the kind of democracy that works. Our democracy is buffered quite naturally by republican constitutional values.
And it works as long as we respect it and preserve it.


Lisa said:
We have always been a melting pot of races, cultures and religions. That is who makes us who we are. Our diversity is a strength and not a weakness.

Do you have a problem with values that are not those of Archie Bunker? Maybe you would support a 3/5 of a vote for people who aren't old, white, male, evangelical bigots who commonly wear sheets?
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Don't forget non-property owners. Only property owners were originally afforded the vote.
 
Nickyjo said:
And Minneapolis in 2019 is different from Little Italy in 1909 how? Btw, visited the neighborhood. Quite nice.
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I grew up in the Cleveland area and in a few miles, there is Slavic village, Little Italy, the Hispanic neighborhood, the middle eastern neighborhood, the Irish neighborhood, Parama (the polish hotbed) and a german neighborhood. There is a small Chinatown on the near east side. If you want good ethnic food you have to know where to go.
 
saltydancin said:
Sounds just like one of Ike's WW II Washington, D.C. born Pentagon staff sergeants getting Federal Lynching KKK churchstate of hate cops Mengele baptize thine eyes by urinations concentration camp defamations prior to extermination who passed a few weeks before 9/11 due to a nationalism patriot act of Christiananality pedophilia Islamophobia pseudo science ChristHitler reincarnated Nazis on Capital Hill.
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:alert WORD SALAD DETECTED :alert
 
Nickyjo said:
And Minneapolis in 2019 is different from Little Italy in 1909 how? Btw, visited the neighborhood. Quite nice.
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The Hmong were clannish the first few years too but today their neighborhoods sparkle and they are fully integrated, and their kids go to the movies at Mall of America and go to the prom for their local schools, play sports and marry into different cultures.

They started arriving the year I left Minneapolis and since I've been back a few times I have noticed the striking difference in the once slummy run down neighborhoods they inherited.
 
Sometimes 20 minutes is not long enough to catch typos/"autocorrections"... <sigh> To wit: it is the Statue of Liberty, not "statute"... and our forebears, not "or". I hate automistake.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
That IS a democracy according to generally accepted definitions of the word.
And that's because only the Athenians tried direct pure democracy, and that was 2500 years ago.
When talk of democracy in the West arises, NOBODY is thinking of Athenian pure democracy.

The only people who feverishly push the "We are not a democracy" trope are those attempting to replace it with authoritarian dictatorship.
The goal is to eliminate respect for representative democracy as a whole. Some are incrementalists, advocating for Constitutional Conventions or repeal of the 17A and putting the Senate back in the hands of the elites.
Some are would-be "bomb-throwing radicals" who would just as soon see a civil war erupt, hopefully culminating in a fake patriot overthrow, and installation of biblical rule.
The rest are just interested bystanders who will watch as one-third of the people try to kill the other third.

We are a democracy, we are exactly the kind of democracy that works. Our democracy is buffered quite naturally by republican constitutional values.
And it works as long as we respect it and preserve it.
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We are not a democracy because that is mob rule. We have democratic elections of representatives but even our elected representatives have checks and balances on their power. We the people cannot vote on issues because that is often tyranny of the majority when it occurs.




Don't forget non-property owners. Only property owners were originally afforded the vote.
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Banning people who are not employed would eliminate many veterans, retired or disabled, plus the people over 65 who are retired. The GOP is scared because they are losing their power and even their gerrymandering and voter ID nonsense isn't enough to protect their white male control of government power. Their support of equal rights is only words because when reality sets in they still want a few extra rights reserved for themselves, so while they support the appearance of equality they are still the apex of political and social power.
Most of these pricks haven't gotten over either the Inquisition or the US Civil War.
 
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