• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

USA Today: Donald Trump: Democrats 'Medicare for All' plan will demolish promises to seniors

Every time a new person gets it?

Every dollar of every paycheck I get has been taxed before I got it.

Should I pay no taxes on my income, then?

Dead people don't pay taxes. Their inheritors do. When they inherit.

Just to be clear, under estate tax rules the tax is paid at the estate level. Heirs aren't taxed on what they receive - it's income tax free to them (with some exceptions called income in respect of a decedent or IRD, such as inherited retirement plans...).

If the estate tax is repealed and the transfers taxed like all other income, then tax would be paid by heirs.

I'm only clarifying because I've been asked 500 times if someone inheriting under current rules must pay income tax on what they receive and the answer (again with exceptions) is NO.
 
Just to be clear, under estate tax rules the tax is paid at the estate level. Heirs aren't taxed on what they receive - it's income tax free to them (with some exceptions called income in respect of a decedent or IRD, such as inherited retirement plans...).

If the estate tax is repealed and the transfers taxed like all other income, then tax would be paid by heirs.

I'm only clarifying because I've been asked 500 times if someone inheriting under current rules must pay income tax on what they receive and the answer (again with exceptions) is NO.

I see.

So that's where the "taxing the same dollars" thing comes from.

So why aren't the heirs taxed on what is clearly "income"?

Is it just so inheritance taxes can be called "unfair"?!
 
I see.

So that's where the "taxing the same dollars" thing comes from.

So why aren't the heirs taxed on what is clearly "income"?

Originally inheritances were taxed as income, because they fit the definition of 'income' in the Code and per various definitions used by the courts.

That changed with the estate tax, which is an alternative to the income tax on inheritances and gifts. Now instead of taxing the transfer as income to the beneficiary, it's taxed at the estate level. Having the ESTATE pay the tax is just an administrative decision. The alternative is having perhaps dozens of heirs, all required to report inheritances on separate returns, then trying to collect from each of them, at perhaps varying rates. And let's say you inherit a gun, or a farm, or a house, or mama's diamond ring. You have no cash to pay the tax, but would owe it upon receipt. Essentially the executor is tasked with deciding which assets to sell, if necessary, to fund the tax, and it makes things easier for the heirs who are relieved of this burden. It also greatly simplifies administration by the feds and the states. So it's easier, more efficient, for everyone to have the estate file a single return and pay the tax for all heirs.

Is it just so inheritance taxes can be called "unfair"?!

Yes, that's part of the talking point, but the "unfair" part is complete BS IMO. Bottom line is for everyone today whose family is worth less than about $15 million, the estate tax is a HUGE tax loophole, a tax benefit. The first roughly $11 million is tax free (5.5m for dad, 5.5m for mom). Basic planning gets the number to $15 million or more estate tax free or nearly so. So the estates worth less than (let's say) $15 million pay NO estate tax and NO income tax on the transfers.

But it gets better. For the 99.?% of families who owe no estate tax, they also get a step up in basis, so any untaxed gain in an asset at daddy's death goes POOF! Let's say dad bought a farm in 1947 after WWII for $3,000, and it's now in a metro area worth $8 million. If daddy sold the farm while alive, he'd owe tax on $7,997,000 in gain. If daddy can hang onto the farm until death, the heir get the farm, write the value up to $8 million, and can sell it the day after the estate closes and pay $0.00 in income tax.

Bill Gates is another example. He's worth $billions, most of it Microsoft stock, in which his basis is roughly $0. Any stock he sells while alive is taxed as income for the full selling price. If he liquidated his position in MSFT he'd owe $billions in tax on the gains. Under the estate tax rules, his heir inherit at the value of the stock on the day he died, and if they sell they'll owe $0 in income tax. Of course under current rules, his ESTATE would owe quite a bit on the MSFT stock, but the GOP wants to repeal the estate tax AND keep the step up in basis rules. So the estate would owe no estate tax and heirs would owe no income tax on the billions in gains in Gate's estate that has in fact NEVER BEEN TAXED (the value of is MSFT stock on the day he died).

Here's the bottom line - the estate tax is a huge tax BENEFIT for at least 99.5% of the country. There is nothing unfair about it for the VAST majority. The only whiners are the plutocrats and their servants in the legislatures.
 
Every time a new person gets it?

Every dollar of every paycheck I get has been taxed before I got it.

Should I pay no taxes on my income, then?

Dead people don't pay taxes. Their inheritors do. When they inherit.

When your kids het their allowance, it should be taxed?
 
I see.

So that's where the "taxing the same dollars" thing comes from.

So why aren't the heirs taxed on what is clearly "income"?

Is it just so inheritance taxes can be called "unfair"?!

Let me clarify another point that confuses people because the propagandists want them confused. Let's say dad died 8 years ago, left it to mom, which is tax free no matter the amount. Mom dies this year and the TAXABLE estate is $20 million.

The estate would owe tax on $20m minus the exclusion of $11m = $9 million. At 40% the tax is $3.6 million on a taxable estate of $20, likely worth at least $25m. So the effective rate is 14-18% (or if you're Donald Trump about 5% of the value).

So the heirs, as a prize for being in the lucky sperm club, get about $17-22 million on a taxable estate of $20 million, and will owe no income tax on the sale of any asset their inherit. I have a hard time working up tears for the awful injustice...
 
When your kids het their allowance, it should be taxed?

If their "allowance" is $10,000 per month, yes. If it's a normal allowance, no, because it's going to be treated as ordinary support.

You're trying to make this hard but it's not. If we taxed gifts and estate inheritances as income, we'd have some 'standard' deduction like we do on the regular income tax, which is $12,000 per year for a single person. We could even have an ADDITIONAL special standard deduction for gifts that would cover any reasonable "allowance" paid by the parents for doing chores that might allow the child to buy a video game, or those Adidas instead of the Walmart specials mom wants him to wear to school.
 
If their "allowance" is $10,000 per month, yes. If it's a normal allowance, no, because it's going to be treated as ordinary support.

You're trying to make this hard but it's not. If we taxed gifts and estate inheritances as income, we'd have some 'standard' deduction like we do on the regular income tax, which is $12,000 per year for a single person. We could even have an ADDITIONAL special standard deduction for gifts that would cover any reasonable "allowance" paid by the parents for doing chores that might allow the child to buy a video game, or those Adidas instead of the Walmart specials mom wants him to wear to school.

It's still an allowance. Your plan sounds like greed, more than anything else.
 
If both parents have to hold full-time jobs right now to make ends meet, what do you think how much they will have to work when the income tax is near 60%?

Well, why do we need to pay for the program? The GOP just cut taxes by $1.6 trillion, then passed more tax cuts worth $2.5 trillion and none of it was paid for with spending cuts or higher taxes somewhere else. We also increased defense spending, and Trump wants his wall. "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter."

Why is it only spending programs proposed by Democrats need to be fully financed with tax increases, when the GOP don't otherwise give one damn about deficits when it comes time to cut taxes or fund the military?

Hell, Bernie just needs to draw a graph on a napkin, call it the Bernie Curve, that proves spending programs cause so much more economic activity that they pay for themselves! It's just as believable as the Laffer Curve...
 
It's still an allowance. Your plan sounds like greed, more than anything else.

Yes, it's an allowance. So what?

And why is it "greedy" for me to simply believe inheritances ought to be taxed like the money you make working hard at your job? It's income by any definition in the code or the courts, and only not taxed because of massive loopholes in the tax code. Are you for big tax loopholes, but only for wealthy trust fund babies like our President? If you're not, then what's greedy about closing that one? Seems to me the 'greedy' ones are those who believe they ought to be able to inherit $billions from daddy and pay no tax on the transfer or when they sell the assets DADDY earned, while hard working people like you pay income and payroll taxes on every dime you make.
 
If both parents have to hold full-time jobs right now to make ends meet, what do you think how much they will have to work when the income tax is near 60%?
Which makes the case for progressive taxation -- low income is lightly taxed while high income is heavily taxed.
 
Yes, it's an allowance. So what?

And why is it "greedy" for me to simply believe inheritances ought to be taxed like the money you make working hard at your job? It's income by any definition in the code or the courts, and only not taxed because of massive loopholes in the tax code. Are you for big tax loopholes, but only for wealthy trust fund babies like our President? If you're not, then what's greedy about closing that one? Seems to me the 'greedy' ones are those who believe they ought to be able to inherit $billions from daddy and pay no tax on the transfer or when they sell the assets DADDY earned, while hard working people like you pay income and payroll taxes on every dime you make.

I oppose inheritance taxes.
 
I oppose inheritance taxes.

OK, so you oppose a system that gives a huge tax loophole to about 99.5% of families, simplifies estates, bookkeeping, tax administration?

And, again, fine, you oppose inheritance taxes. OK, treat inheritances like all other income! I'm good with that! But I don't know why you'd oppose a system that in its current form is a great thing for everyone not worth more than $15-20 million.
 
Well that's a mistake. We've shown we are not reliable when a country gets invaded. Czechoslovakia, Germany (East), Crimea, Georgia, etc. etc. And with the idiot in chief we have now that's even less likely.

Yeah I know, Do Nothing Obama was the worst at turning his head. Putin told him to cancel the missile defence in NATO and Obamafail jumped up and canceled it. He never provided arms to Ukraine. He called ISIS the JV Team that he could not take out, can you believe it he could not wip a JV team. Now North Korea was a big winner for Obamafail or was his actions of Do Nothing a complete failure. He relied on Russia to confirm Syria got rid of all their WMD, can you believe that one, he got Russia to do it and he believed them. Obamafail puts down his RED LINE and you know what, Syria walked all over his red line. Yep Trump had to fix all of Obamafails Do Nothing BS, lead from behind and do whatever Putin told him to do. Almost forgot Obamafail pulled out of Iraq and not soon after he moves back in. And Obamafail really got NATO to pay their fair share, wait a minute, he did nothing to get NATO to pay up. This guy was a blooming idiot and that's just the beginning of Obamafail. Benghazi remember that one, or when Obamafail flew in the middle of night over a billion dollars in CASH to Iran. And he cuts a deal with Iran with NO INSPECTIONS ANYTIME ANYWHERE. IDIOT. You mentioned Crimea, what did Obamafail do again to help Crimea? That's right. NOTHING. When Putin said jump Obamafail said how high.
 
OK, so you oppose a system that gives a huge tax loophole to about 99.5% of families, simplifies estates, bookkeeping, tax administration?

And, again, fine, you oppose inheritance taxes. OK, treat inheritances like all other income! I'm good with that! But I don't know why you'd oppose a system that in its current form is a great thing for everyone not worth more than $15-20 million.

I'm sure you know in a family business, the children most likely work in that business to grow the business. When the parents die they gift the business to their children who helped them in the business for years. So now the business they help grow is taxed to death. And yes I oppose inheritance taxes. The money was probable was taxed at the corporate level and then again when funds were distributed or when the stock was sold at a gain, and now for a third time when it's gifted. Enough already
 
I'm sure you know in a family business, the children most likely work in that business to grow the business. When the parents die they gift the business to their children who helped them in the business for years. So now the business they help grow is taxed to death. And yes I oppose inheritance taxes. The money was probable was taxed at the corporate level and then again when funds were distributed or when the stock was sold at a gain, and now for a third time when it's gifted. Enough already

Nobody in that situation "gifts the business;" that would be bat**** absurd.

They put it in a family trust.
 
Nobody in that situation "gifts the business;" that would be bat**** absurd.

They put it in a family trust.

Correct me if I'm wrong, they still have a cost basis, if the owner at age 75 has a business worth say 20 million and now he wants to set up a family trust. The kids do not automatically get an equal value, nor can it be passed on ignoring the gift tax.
 
I'm sure you know in a family business, the children most likely work in that business to grow the business. When the parents die they gift the business to their children who helped them in the business for years. So now the business they help grow is taxed to death.

The vast majority of small businesses pay no estate tax at all, because the vast, vast majority are worth less than around $15 million, which passes estate tax free or nearly so.

And yes I oppose inheritance taxes. The money was probable was taxed at the corporate level and then again when funds were distributed or when the stock was sold at a gain, and now for a third time when it's gifted. Enough already

As I've said on this thread, the estate tax is a huge tax loophole, tax benefit, saves taxes for about 99.5% of families, which is roughly the number of families worth less than $15-20 million or so.
 
I think Trump just made a massive mistake, bringing up Healthcare, prior to the mid-terms. All that this accomplishes is a refresher for Americans, regarding the Republican failures to get anything done. Everyone of them campaigned on this issue, and it's turned out to be nothing but an empty bag.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, they still have a cost basis, if the owner at age 75 has a business worth say 20 million and now he wants to set up a family trust. The kids do not automatically get an equal value, nor can it be passed on ignoring the gift tax.

The downside of lifetime gifts versus at death is with gifts the kids get a carryover basis, which if dad started it would be roughly $0 in a lot of cases. If he dies, the kids step up the 'cost' basis to FMV on the date of death. So there's a trade-off. If you get it out of the estate early, you avoid estate/gift taxes on the appreciation between the gift and death, but miss out on the step up at death. If capital gains taxes are at 20%, and might not be paid for years or decades if the kids keep the business, and estate taxes at 40%, then it's not that hard a choice in most cases.

And you're right, lifetime gifts over the annual exclusion of $15k per person, per recipient, go against the 'unified' estate and gift tax exclusion of roughly $5.5m/person under current law.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom