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Indianapolis church 'detains' Jesus, Mary and Joseph in protest of child separation policy

These articles are concerning. I was raised in a household with two parents who never divorced and who both lived to venerable ages. My mother was afflicted by what was known as bi-polar disorder about 20 years ago and this condition was controlled by drugs from the 70's onward.

During the 60's, though, the condition was called manic-depressive and was treated in long hospital stays with shock treatments. I was separated from her on one occasion for about 2 months at age 6 or 7. I did not forget who she was. After the shock treatments, though, she forgot who she was and who everyone else, including me, was. Realizing that my mother did not know me was shocking and is branded on my being to this day.

It seems odd that the children in these stories forget their own mothers and pleaded to be kept with their social worker care takers after a few months.

Your story illustrates how fragile the development of the human child can be. How normal development can be effected by separation from parents. This has been known for a very long time. Young elephants show similar behavior. Likely many species do.

The government does not give a damn about the harm caused by its many policies, including separating children from parents, and it appears many humans don't either. They are adamant that "the law" must be honored no matter how harmful and barbaric the law may be, partly demonstrating what St. Paul might have been talking about in Corinthians II. The letter of the law gives death, while the spirit of the law gives life.
 
Your story illustrates how fragile the development of the human child can be. How normal development can be effected by separation from parents. This has been known for a very long time. Young elephants show similar behavior. Likely many species do.

The government does not give a damn about the harm caused by its many policies, including separating children from parents, and it appears many humans don't either. They are adamant that "the law" must be honored no matter how harmful and barbaric the law may be, partly demonstrating what St. Paul might have been talking about in Corinthians II. The letter of the law gives death, while the spirit of the law gives life.

A thought that occurred to me from the story was whether or not the mother in the story was the mother of the child.

Also, whether the condition of the child was enhanced or diminished by being taken from that mother.

One of the myriad problems presented by this issue is determining whether or not the families that cross the border illegally are actually blood relatives.

There is an astonishingly high rate of reported child abuse among immigrants.

https://www.wearethorn.org/child-trafficking-statistics/
 
A thought that occurred to me from the story was whether or not the mother in the story was the mother of the child.

Also, whether the condition of the child was enhanced or diminished by being taken from that mother.

One of the myriad problems presented by this issue is determining whether or not the families that cross the border illegally are actually blood relatives.

There is an astonishingly high rate of reported child abuse among immigrants.

https://www.wearethorn.org/child-trafficking-statistics/

You are reaching.

DNA tests were used to reunite the children with their parents.

A few of the children rejected their parents after being separated from them. ( some of them for months )

For some of the young children it will take time to recognize and trust their parent again.

When a yong child is forced away from a parent the child feels rejected and abandoned.

Sometimes the young mind copes by forgetting, sometimes the child remembers but rejects the parent because the young child thinks it was the parents fault or worse yet that it was something they themselfs did that caused the separation and they cannot deal with yet.

It will take time and a lot of patience on the parents side before the child trusts that the parent is not going to abandon in the future.
 
You are reaching.

DNA tests were used to reunite the children with their parents.

The children rejected their parents after being separated from them.

For some of the young children it will take time to recognize and trust their parent again.

When a yong child is forced away from a parent the child feels rejected and abandoned.

Sometimes the young mind copes by forgetting, sometimes the child remembers but rejects the parent because the young child thinks it was the parents fault or worse yet that it was something they themselfs did that caused the separation and they cannot deal with yet.

It will take time and a lot of patience on the parents side before the child trusts that the parent is not going to abandon in the future.

Not reaching.

Wondering.
 
A thought that occurred to me from the story was whether or not the mother in the story was the mother of the child.

Also, whether the condition of the child was enhanced or diminished by being taken from that mother.

One of the myriad problems presented by this issue is determining whether or not the families that cross the border illegally are actually blood relatives.

There is an astonishingly high rate of reported child abuse among immigrants.

https://www.wearethorn.org/child-trafficking-statistics/

Thank you for that knowledge. Those are honorable people in that Thorn group, bravo.

The separation is just another example of the psychological trauma induced by government policy and law. The law is an ass, as Dickens knew centuries ago.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I say that separating families is illegal and immoral. And as Thorn talks about, the law induces social pathologies. That law should be struck immediately.
 
Was that contained in the link?

Here is a quote and the link follows:

CNN) -- DNA testing is being conducted as part of the process to reunite children who were separated from their parents at the border, a federal official with knowledge of the reunifications told CNN.....

This is a further demonstration of administration's incompetence and admission of guilt, this further drives home the point we've been saying. They never registered parents and children properly."

Falcon also said it's not possible the migrant children -- some as young as two months old -- are giving their consent to DNA testing.

DNA testing being done on separated migrant children and parents - WNEM TV 5
 
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Thank you for that knowledge. Those are honorable people in that Thorn group, bravo.

The separation is just another example of the psychological trauma induced by government policy and law. The law is an ass, as Dickens knew centuries ago.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I say that separating families is illegal and immoral. And as Thorn talks about, the law induces social pathologies. That law should be struck immediately.

What guidance would you offer to the folks charged with enforcing the law?
 
So, then, the child who was terrified to be united with the woman claiming to be its mother was probably not DNA matched to that particular lady?

I was wondering why that particular 3 year old was terrified at the prospect of being reunited with the mother that the child did not recognize.

You are mistaken.

The article states the children who were seperated at the border either had proper doctuments to prove they were the parent or had the DNA test. Those whose papers had been confiscated at the border and were no longer in detention had DNA tests before being reunited with the parent.
 
Not reaching.

Wondering.

From PBS

My son is not the same

Last week, Democratic attorneys general in 17 states and the District of Columbia filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration, arguing that its practice of separating families violated the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fifth Amendment. Now, in a new filing, they’re asking the federal government to provide more immediate information and access to those detained under the policy on an “expedited schedule.”

The motion filed Monday came with more than 900 pages of declarations that included powerful personal testimonies from parents, children and other family members who were directly impacted by the Trump policy. It also included declarations from the state attorneys general offices, elected representatives, advocates and child and immigration experts who have dealt with families separated at the border.

...

What parents say

[B%]“(My son) is not the same since we were reunited.[/B] I thought that, because he is so young he would not be traumatized by this experience, but he does not separate from me. He cries when he does not see me. That behavior is not normal. In El Salvador he would stay with his dad or my sister and not cry. Now he cries for fear of being alone.”

— Olivia Caceres was separated from her 1-year-old son in November at a legal point of entry. The boy’s father, who was seeking asylum, remains detained, Caceres said. It took three months for Caceres to get her son back from government custody. According to her testimony, she said that after reuniting with her toddler, “he continued to cry when we got home and would hold on to my leg and would not let me go. When I took off his clothes he was full of dirt and lice. It seemed like they had not bathed him the 85 days he was away from us.”

“They told me to sign a consent form to take my daughter, but that it did not matter whether or not I signed, because they were going to take her either way.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...ony-paints-bleak-picture-of-family-separation
 
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Look to your soul after you look to the US Constitution.

Neither will guide the actions of the person in the situation attempting to act in compliance with the law.

What guidance would you offer to the folks charged with enforcing the law?
 
Well, that's disturbing.

In this case, the child panicked in the face of being separated from its mother.

In the other case the child panicked in the face of being united with its mother.

It's a bad situation. What do you suggest be done?

It is a bad situation. They should not have been parted in the first place.

Back in the 1930s my husband’s dads 1st wife ( my husband’s mom was the second wife ) died. His dad took the 3 little ones to an orphanage run by nuns to take care of while he went to Europe and family to decide what to do. Months went by. He got remarried and brought his new wife back to the states and got the kids from the orphanage. His daughter never forgave him for abandoning her and her brothers. She was a troubled girl and a troubled woman the rest of her life.

Very sad.
 
Neither will guide the actions of the person in the situation attempting to act in compliance with the law.

What guidance would you offer to the folks charged with enforcing the law?

Frequently, the law is an ass. Historically the law is an ass.

Look to your soul, hope you find a conscience there, and do the right thing. Let your conscience be your guide. How would you like it done to yourself?

Perhaps a more complete answer might be : petition the legislators to repeal really lousy law, legislative excrement. Get rid of the bad law.
 
It is a bad situation. They should not have been parted in the first place.

Back in the 1930s my husband’s dads 1st wife ( my husband’s mom was the second wife ) died. His dad took the 3 little ones to an orphanage run by nuns to take care of while he went to Europe and family to decide what to do. Months went by. He got remarried and brought his new wife back to the states and got the kids from the orphanage. His daughter never forgave him for abandoning her and her brothers. She was a troubled girl and a troubled woman the rest of her life.

Very sad.

It is sad.

Children seem to pay the price or reap the rewards of the actions of adults.

It was true in the story of your family and the various drama playing out on the Southern border.

Should children be incarcerated with the parents when illegal or extra legal actions are committed by the parents?
 
Frequently, the law is an ass. Historically the law is an ass.

Look to your soul, hope you find a conscience there, and do the right thing. Let your conscience be your guide. How would you like it done to yourself?

Perhaps a more complete answer might be : petition the legislators to repeal really lousy law, legislative excrement. Get rid of the bad law.

Ah-ha!

With your last thoughts posted here, we find agreement!

Our lawmakers are spineless weasels who live and work for only one goal: To get re-elected.

The folks who enforce the laws, if they do so with integrity and honesty, are charged to enforce the laws as written.

When the law enforcers disregard the written laws and legislate new law on the street, the result is literally a lawless society.

IF the law says that the border is a thing that needs to be recognized, enforced and protected according to defined laws, THEN the officers charged to enforce the laws are CHARGED TO ENFORCE THE LAWS.

The direction from the Political Left and those shrieking about the border injustice seem to exhort our law enforcers to make up crap and do whatever the heck they "feel" is right from their own personal point of view.

What is right or just has little or nothing to do with what is legal. If we demand that our lawmakers pass laws and demand our law enforcers ignore them, what are we actually demanding?

What will be the result for a society that operates without a consistent legal code of conduct?
 
Ah-ha!

With your last thoughts posted here, we find agreement!

Our lawmakers are spineless weasels who live and work for only one goal: To get re-elected.

The folks who enforce the laws, if they do so with integrity and honesty, are charged to enforce the laws as written.

When the law enforcers disregard the written laws and legislate new law on the street, the result is literally a lawless society.

IF the law says that the border is a thing that needs to be recognized, enforced and protected according to defined laws, THEN the officers charged to enforce the laws are CHARGED TO ENFORCE THE LAWS.

The direction from the Political Left and those shrieking about the border injustice seem to exhort our law enforcers to make up crap and do whatever the heck they "feel" is right from their own personal point of view.

What is right or just has little or nothing to do with what is legal. If we demand that our lawmakers pass laws and demand our law enforcers ignore them, what are we actually demanding?

What will be the result for a society that operates without a consistent legal code of conduct?

Yes I understand your point, and we agree in general principles.

From my days in church, I grew to like St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians, in which he says that the letter of the law gives death, while the spirit of the law gives life. There are various translations for that, but we have the general idea.

And so I offer a hypothetical based upon the historical record. The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 made criminal the actions of any person who assisted a slave in escaping. Had you been LEO during the short frustrated life of that immoral law, would you have enforced it?
 
Yes I understand your point, and we agree in general principles.

From my days in church, I grew to like St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians, in which he says that the letter of the law gives death, while the spirit of the law gives life. There are various translations for that, but we have the general idea.

And so I offer a hypothetical based upon the historical record. The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 made criminal the actions of any person who assisted a slave in escaping. Had you been LEO during the short frustrated life of that immoral law, would you have enforced it?

Thankfully, I'm not in a position to make life or death decisions like that one. This, though, is another example of what I am referring to.

The law was passed by our corrupt law makers and it was obviously not a fair or just law. It was merely a political expediency.

The law enforcers were sworn to uphold the law, not to enforce their understanding of justice in every instance they encountered.

When this situation exists, that law before the enforcer is perceived to be unjust or unfair, enforcing the law as written should advertise to all the need for a better law. Ignoring law in favor of a preferred tradition is dangerous to any society.

There was a movie with Paul Newman in which he said that the trappings of our courts reflect our goal as a society to embrace justice.

When our legislative system is worked by crooks, the resulting laws enacted will be crooked. After the laws are passed, just or not, if they are enforced or ignored by those with personal agendas, the resulting actions will be crooked.

Our history as a nation in the withholding or allocation of civil liberties by class, race and gender is not one to be proud of. Awarding civil liberties, though, pretty much assumes that the people affected are citizens or legal residents.

That said, though, the treatment of the slaves of the old South brought here against their will or the indigenous Native Americans already here don't seem to me to be a parallel to folks who are essentially "breaking in" to our country. That's probably off topic.

Anyway, on to your hypothetical: If the only way to achieve "moral justice" is to break the law, then we need to examine what the law actually directs and what the notion of justice actually is.

Are non-citizens to be allowed all the rights of citizens? If there's a Romanian Citizen living in Romania who wants to vote in the US even though he has never been here, should he have the right to vote? It is a right, after all.

At what point are rights that we hold to be self evident to be withheld from those for whom they were never intended?
 
Thankfully, I'm not in a position to make life or death decisions like that one. This, though, is another example of what I am referring to.

The law was passed by our corrupt law makers and it was obviously not a fair or just law. It was merely a political expediency.

The law enforcers were sworn to uphold the law, not to enforce their understanding of justice in every instance they encountered.

When this situation exists, that law before the enforcer is perceived to be unjust or unfair, enforcing the law as written should advertise to all the need for a better law. Ignoring law in favor of a preferred tradition is dangerous to any society.

There was a movie with Paul Newman in which he said that the trappings of our courts reflect our goal as a society to embrace justice.

When our legislative system is worked by crooks, the resulting laws enacted will be crooked. After the laws are passed, just or not, if they are enforced or ignored by those with personal agendas, the resulting actions will be crooked.

Our history as a nation in the withholding or allocation of civil liberties by class, race and gender is not one to be proud of. Awarding civil liberties, though, pretty much assumes that the people affected are citizens or legal residents.

That said, though, the treatment of the slaves of the old South brought here against their will or the indigenous Native Americans already here don't seem to me to be a parallel to folks who are essentially "breaking in" to our country. That's probably off topic.

Anyway, on to your hypothetical: If the only way to achieve "moral justice" is to break the law, then we need to examine what the law actually directs and what the notion of justice actually is.

Are non-citizens to be allowed all the rights of citizens? If there's a Romanian Citizen living in Romania who wants to vote in the US even though he has never been here, should he have the right to vote? It is a right, after all.

At what point are rights that we hold to be self evident to be withheld from those for whom they were never intended?

Many good questions and observations you offer.

Yes, as Louis Brandeis noted, the law will be respected when it is respectable. And from that, the law enforcer will be respected when he acts in a respectable manner. In the end, if he is enforcing a poor law or group of laws, he is perceived as having no conscience, that he does not know right from wrong. A dilemma, to be sure. That's why I admire and support the group formerly known as Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. They have changed their name now, but the principle is the same.

That poor laws are seldom, if ever, repealed makes the law enforcement community look bad. That is, our sorry politicians' refusal to repeal bad law makes the LE community look bad, and ultimately contributes to a breakdown in society of respect for the law and its enforcers.
 
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