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Arkansas students punished with paddles for walking out: reports

holbritter said:
Ok. Point taken.
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My parents gave it for me, and I got paddled several times in MS, but I never did give consent for my kids. I also never hit them--never saw the point of it.

My favorite punishment--time out in a dry bath tub. Kids always HATED that. Boring! Nothing to do but sit and think. Worse than any paddling.
 
OlNate said:
Again, you wanna hit my kid, you better count on good luck hitting me because I'm coming for you...I don't care how fancy your justification is. **** that nonsense, it's 2018.
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And go to straight to jail after getting you butt kicked by the deans and school resource officers.

Go ahead, try threatening or striking a school representative. Hope you got a lotta money for attorney's fees ...and a reminder, dont drop that slippery bar soap in the prison shower, buddy.

You will create your own problems if you havent taught your kids good discipline at home, how to conduct themselves properly outside the home, especially in a school setting where disruption causes everyone to lose, and its noted your hot headed threats that go directly to violence ( and then to jail ), I would assume you may very well not have.

If corporal punishment is within the laws of your state and a tool utilized by the school district where you have your children, at our, the tax payer expense, youve got several choices. Move...or have you kid behave, home school or put your kid in private school... or get arrested for what you just threatened should you be boneheaded enough to follow through as you have expressed in a simply dopey post.
 
OlNate said:
Again, you wanna hit my kid, you better count on good luck hitting me because I'm coming for you...I don't care how fancy your justification is. **** that nonsense, it's 2018.
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That's why kids in public schools are out of control.

And before you ask: yes, my kids's teacher not only have my permission to whip my kids, but I insist they whip my kids, if they get out of hand. They'll get another ass whipping when they get home.
 
rocket88 said:
Arkansas students punished with paddles for walking out: reports | TheHill

Three students at an Arkansas high school were reportedly punished with paddles this week after leaving school to participate in the national walkout to protest gun violence.

Tolerance.
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If paddling is a common punishment for skipping classes, and this student was punished for missing classes then I am ok with this. If this child was punished for protesting then I would have a problem. There is a difference. Every American is free to protest, however, missing obligations and responsibilities can have consequences.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I too was given corporal punishment, but I don't think a valid "cause & effect" relationship can be established as to that punishment being the reason any adult turns out the way he did.

I think teaching kids that assault and battery is a valid means of social control simply perpetuates the practice.

Can we say that corporal punishment turns a person into a conspiracy theorist? It happened to me. :lol: Or maybe the Russians did it!
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If you are not sufficiently cognizant to understand that when you do something wrong and, when caught, it results in a bad consequence, sure.

I was fortunate, I was able and did make the very small leap to that correct understanding. My own father was strict but fair, gave us warnings and then when my brother or I, sometimes both, stepped over the line, no matter how pissed he was he would take us to talk privately about what we had done wrong, made us accept that responsibility that we had warnings and were in the wrong, finally we got punished...the added bonus of his method was it gave him time to cool off. His corporal punishment didnt go over the top since he was not in a rage.

I never wanted the discipline, not being a masochist, but I never held it against my dad.

If you dont learn, and some dont, thats why we have jails and other penalties, including the ultimate penalty. Some only need to be warned, for instance my older sis, some, like my brother and I, needed stiff consequences early on...and others never learn.

I am a conspiracy analyst, but my bro isnt...so the causal link you suggest seems broken, at least anecdotally. At the same time, my older brother was killed under mysterious circumstances the same year of the Kennedy assassination when I was in second grade, then the whole string, Bobby in '68, MLK jr, Malcom X, then the Watergate conspiracy. I think those are the roots of my history and early awakening to the world not going as I once took for granted.

When I surfed, I would look at the beautiful, sometimes calm and serene as a pond, surface of the ocean...and knew what brutal and natural savagery was going on beneath.
 
cuban smokes said:
R-kansas = another backwards red state; what does anyone expect? .............
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How right you are, we are the people who sent you the Clintons; at least we are well rid of them (as well as all of the Democrats who unloaded this white trash on us.)
 
HonestJoe said:
There’s no opinion in stating that paddling a child would be a criminal offence for anyone unless it was their own parents/guardians or authorised school officials and even then only under specified conditions. Those exceptions to the law have been justified by legislators but there is no reason why those justifications can’t be revisited or challenged.

I wasn’t saying the boys arguments were perfectly formed, only that his statement demonstrated no less understanding and awareness than you’d expect of the average adult and clearly well above the level of being unable to understand rational arguments that is used to justify corporal punishment against much younger children.

Not for the kind of petty misbehaviour we’re talking about here. And if you’re aware of more “painful consequences” (thus more effective by this logic) you accept being applied to adults, why not apply the same to (older) children? If you can’t control the behaviour of 17 year old high school students without corporal punishment, how can you control the behaviour of 19 year old university students, 30 year old employees or 70 year old care-home residents? If it works, why limit it to minors?
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That is reasonable, I can accept that.

I dont accept your second assertion. When teaching a young child not to run out in the street, you dont sit them down after they just finished watching roadrunner cartoons in which Wiley Coyote gets run over by a semi tractor trailer but pops back up next scene whole again, and give the kid the reality of the facts, how mass and velocity of the semi vs the human body actually plays out. They wont understand you...if they arent obeying you might send a corporal punishment message that a younger child WILL, hopefully, understand.

Listen, if you start early and are consistent in follow through, most kids quickly begin understanding and dont need a much additional instruction. If they continue down that road despite warnings and harsher and harsher punishments, they are sending warning signals to us, civilized society. You are aware that punishment isnt solely a deterrent, right? It is also a penalty consequence for the infraction itself.

Justice, one's just desserts for harms inflicted.

Good point...so you are for instituting corporal punishment for adults? I agree, it works, so why not? I agree with water boarding as well. Works and does no real lasting harm, just like CP.

Solutions...thats where its at.
 
holbritter said:
Good for you then. I'm with OlNate on this. No one touches my child.
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Get your kids off taxpayer property then, if they cannot behave themselves.

I sure wouldnt want your unruly kids affecting the education of mine. Or, if you want to do the doltish aggressive thing, end up in jail with violent O. Jails are full of the self righteously inane who step over the line. Not sufficient spankings in some folks past it is readily apparent, but maybe not so ready to be a parent is the real message.

IOW, way to truly teach kids nonviolence. :lamo When you folks type this crap, do you ever actually reflect on what it means afterward? Obviouly not before you hit the submit reply button. :peace:2wave:
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
When teaching a young child not to run out in the street, you dont sit them down after they just finished watching roadrunner cartoons in which Wiley Coyote gets run over by a semi tractor trailer but pops back up next scene whole again, and give the kid the reality of the facts, how mass and velocity of the semi vs the human body actually plays out. They wont understand you...if they arent obeying you might send a corporal punishment message that a younger child WILL, hopefully, understand.
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The actual scientific evidence suggests otherwise though. If a child is too young to understand the risk of running out in to the road, they’re not necessarily going to understand the connection between the smacking and their specific behaviour, especially when it’s done in the heat of the moment without any attempt to explain to them in terms they can understand. I also don’t see why the same results can’t be achieve with non-physical punishments.

Regardless, what we’re talking about here isn’t direct instinctive behaviour modification of a very young child, we’re talking about pre-planned punishment for knowing rule-breaking by a teenager. They are entirely different circumstances and should be treated as such. You keep returning to the “unable to understand” aspect which is irrelevant in this context.

Gaugingcatenate said:
You are aware that punishment isnt solely a deterrent, right? It is also a penalty consequence for the infraction itself.
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Not exactly. Penalties just for the sake of it is just emotive vengeance, just about making the giver feel better. Penalties for misbehaviour are legitimately just tools for deterrent (both for the punished and anyone else observing).

Gaugingcatenate said:
Good point...so you are for instituting corporal punishment for adults? I agree, it works, so why not? I agree with water boarding as well. Works and does no real lasting harm, just like CP.
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No, because the evidence it that it doesn’t work and has potential ling term harms. You might wish to give you employer the right to beat you for turning up late to work but I’d rather we didn’t go down that route.

Waterboarding is typically a form of torture, not punishment (and the effectiveness of that is highly questionable too). It obviously can have lasting psychological harm and carries a major risk of physical harm, even death. If you think it’s just fine though, you’d be perfectly content for it to be used as a form of punishment in schools rather than paddling?
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Get your kids off taxpayer property then, if they cannot behave themselves.

I sure wouldnt want your unruly kids affecting the education of mine. Or, if you want to do the doltish aggressive thing, end up in jail with violent O. Jails are full of the self righteously inane who step over the line. Not sufficient spankings in some folks past it is readily apparent, but maybe not so ready to be a parent is the real message.

IOW, way to truly teach kids nonviolence. :lamo When you folks type this crap, do you ever actually reflect on what it means afterward? Obviouly not before you hit the submit reply button. :peace:2wave:
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How about not jumping to conclusions. Just because I don't want someone else spanking my child does not mean I never did.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
If you are not sufficiently cognizant to understand that when you do something wrong and, when caught, it results in a bad consequence, sure.

I was fortunate, I was able and did make the very small leap to that correct understanding. My own father was strict but fair, gave us warnings and then when my brother or I, sometimes both, stepped over the line, no matter how pissed he was he would take us to talk privately about what we had done wrong, made us accept that responsibility that we had warnings and were in the wrong, finally we got punished...the added bonus of his method was it gave him time to cool off. His corporal punishment didnt go over the top since he was not in a rage.

I never wanted the discipline, not being a masochist, but I never held it against my dad.

If you dont learn, and some dont, thats why we have jails and other penalties, including the ultimate penalty. Some only need to be warned, for instance my older sis, some, like my brother and I, needed stiff consequences early on...and others never learn.

I am a conspiracy analyst, but my bro isnt...so the causal link you suggest seems broken, at least anecdotally. At the same time, my older brother was killed under mysterious circumstances the same year of the Kennedy assassination when I was in second grade, then the whole string, Bobby in '68, MLK jr, Malcom X, then the Watergate conspiracy. I think those are the roots of my history and early awakening to the world not going as I once took for granted.

When I surfed, I would look at the beautiful, sometimes calm and serene as a pond, surface of the ocean...and knew what brutal and natural savagery was going on beneath.
Click to expand...

My experiences were not very different from yours. I like the term conspiracy analyst, very much, but I was kidding a bit suggesting a link between physical punishment and CT.

My father spanked, much in the way your father did you, after an explanation for the reason why.

Having been raised in a Catholic education, I was also paddled for transgressions so trivial that poor grades was the usual cause, done on Saturday mornings in a Benedictine monastery.

Moderation in all things.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
And go to straight to jail after getting you butt kicked by the deans and school resource officers.

Go ahead, try threatening or striking a school representative. Hope you got a lotta money for attorney's fees ...and a reminder, dont drop that slippery bar soap in the prison shower, buddy.

You will create your own problems if you havent taught your kids good discipline at home, how to conduct themselves properly outside the home, especially in a school setting where disruption causes everyone to lose, and its noted your hot headed threats that go directly to violence ( and then to jail ), I would assume you may very well not have.

If corporal punishment is within the laws of your state and a tool utilized by the school district where you have your children, at our, the tax payer expense, youve got several choices. Move...or have you kid behave, home school or put your kid in private school... or get arrested for what you just threatened should you be boneheaded enough to follow through as you have expressed in a simply dopey post.
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Oh, move I would...I would never choose to live in a backwards idiot fest that still allow other people to put hands on their kids in the first place. Frankly I can't imagine the chicken **** garbage parent you would have to be to allow a stranger to hurt your kid in this day and age. Kids act out, that's part of being a kid, and if you didn't as a kid, that explains your weird support for an outdated method of correction. Repression creates weird fantasies, but if you want to get your jollies by applying paddles to youthful ass, take up hentai, or buy a lifelike doll.

****ing sick and disgusting...chances are I would get locked up because I'm of the mind that a good parent doesn't allow others to beat up their kid for any reason. But to your point, I would never live in such a disgraceful, backwards, bumpkin place to begin with, so...best of luck to the inbred idiots who still think this is a good idea, I would have nothing to do with it.
 
apdst said:
That's why kids in public schools are out of control.

And before you ask: yes, my kids's teacher not only have my permission to whip my kids, but I insist they whip my kids, if they get out of hand. They'll get another ass whipping when they get home.
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Ugh, see post #41.

I'm not opposed to spanking one's own kids, up to a certain point (aka, the point where they can understand reason, which is an infinitely better parenting tool than a belt, FFS). I've spanked my own kid. But parents that strut around bragging about how they discipline their kids using language that implies child abuse make me sick.

And parents that allow strangers to put hands on their kids should have their kids taken away. Yup, I just ****ing said that.
 
HonestJoe said:
The actual scientific evidence suggests otherwise though. If a child is too young to understand the risk of running out in to the road, they’re not necessarily going to understand the connection between the smacking and their specific behaviour, especially when it’s done in the heat of the moment without any attempt to explain to them in terms they can understand. I also don’t see why the same results can’t be achieve with non-physical punishments.



Regardless, what we’re talking about here isn’t direct instinctive behaviour modification of a very young child, we’re talking about pre-planned punishment for knowing rule-breaking by a teenager. They are entirely different circumstances and should be treated as such. You keep returning to the “unable to understand” aspect which is irrelevant in this context.

Not exactly. Penalties just for the sake of it is just emotive vengeance, just about making the giver feel better. Penalties for misbehaviour are legitimately just tools for deterrent (both for the punished and anyone else observing).

No, because the evidence it that it doesn’t work and has potential ling term harms. You might wish to give you employer the right to beat you for turning up late to work but I’d rather we didn’t go down that route.

Waterboarding is typically a form of torture, not punishment (and the effectiveness of that is highly questionable too). It obviously can have lasting psychological harm and carries a major risk of physical harm, even death. If you think it’s just fine though, you’d be perfectly content for it to be used as a form of punishment in schools rather than paddling?
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Nice hokem pokem gobbledy goop ... flowery with illusions to science but just high faluting opinion.

We ve had thousands of years of spare the rod and spoil the child empiracle, at civilization level, experience. Two leading advocates for the system, the Jewish and Christian faiths, epitomised by the two major nations adhering by overwhelming majorities to those teachings, Israel and the United States, have done tremendously well. But tremendously well isnt good enough with those who would rather tear down the working system and impose a high stakes government controlled experiment upon us.

As to children running out in the road, what does the science say with regards to sitting them down and explaining mass and velocity impact on liquid solids (the human body) versus a quick, small swat on the bum everytime caught? Plus the explanation of not running out in the street so associated so that proper connections with little brains can be made. Both together are covering your bases, so an intelligent system use in conjunction.

Perhaps we should keep going home with a proven system that brought us to this very nice dance. Is that too common sensical in this modern, post modern, day?

No no nope. You dont get to make up everybody's mind on why we, society, mete out punishment. Some, for example, simply cannot be deterred...so are we just to set them free? No. Silly.

Emotive vengence? Where out of left field does that come from? Penalties in rule books are what? emotive vengence prior to the fact? The folks that create speeding laws sit around after they make the law rubbing their hands together in anticipatory vengence? It starts getting too illogical, hurts my brain to even stray that far into such faulty notions.

Okay...you see what you did there, substituted "beating" someone with spanking. Out of bounds. Besides, I will bet many an employee, just like the students, all three, might choose the swats. I am betting even many adults would rather that than a cut in salary, demotion, etc.

Waterboarding is a scary but not necessarily painful,( depending on how its administered) advanced interrogation technique that is proven to work. Is it the best technique if there is no immeinent threat?...depending on the subject, perhaps generally not. Sometimes effective, when nothing else is working or when time is of the essence, it is better than no chance at all when innocent lives are at risk.

In real life, not the antiseptic "scientific"trials on rats, trade offs must be made. They are often not easy decisions, but a KSM who plotted 9-11 wherein 3000 of ours, innocents, were heinously murdered, forcing some, by the very real torture of unbearable heat, to jump from 110 stories to certain death. Now thats torture...without a choice. KSM had a choice to give up information and opt out of the advanced interrogation..

Yeah, I will take some advanced interrogation techniques over that result any day.

Why must you make such outlandish claims? Waterboarding has its proper place. Do you agree with life imprisonment as a punishment? Many do, especially to replace a death penalty...should life imprisionment be used on school children...???

I mean, if we are going to be asking over the top questions.
 
Thoreau72 said:
My experiences were not very different from yours. I like the term conspiracy analyst, very much, but I was kidding a bit suggesting a link between physical punishment and CT.

My father spanked, much in the way your father did you, after an explanation for the reason why.

Having been raised in a Catholic education, I was also paddled for transgressions so trivial that poor grades was the usual cause, done on Saturday mornings in a Benedictine monastery.

Moderation in all things.
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I am no Christian, not religious at all except my personal relationship with the creator, but that is one of my all time favorite truisms across cultures. Moderation can be emancipating. Speaking of which, I need a break from this site.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Nice hokem pokem gobbledy goop ... flowery with illusions to science but just high faluting opinion.
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I thought the evidence was fairly common knowledge;
The case against spanking
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/

Gaugingcatenate said:
We ve had thousands of years of spare the rod and spoil the child empiracle, at civilization level, experience. Two leading advocates for the system, the Jewish and Christian faiths, epitomised by the two major nations adhering by overwhelming majorities to those teachings, Israel and the United States, have done tremendously well.
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I don't think you can establish any direct correlation between corporal punishment of children and success of nations. It's been traditional practice pretty much everywhere, including plenty of parts of the world you probably don't consider successful, such as the Middle East and Africa. If anything, there has probably been more resistance and less consistent practice in Western nations in recent decades (hence our discussion).

Gaugingcatenate said:
As to children running out in the road, what does the science say with regards to sitting them down and explaining mass and velocity impact on liquid solids (the human body) versus a quick, small swat on the bum everytime caught? Plus the explanation of not running out in the street so associated so that proper connections with little brains can be made. Both together are covering your bases, so an intelligent system use in conjunction.
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The level of explanation would be the same regardless of whether it's been reinforced by physical punishment or some other form. But yet again, my point wasn't about protecting very young children who can't be reasoned with, it was about punishment of older teenagers after the fact.

Gaugingcatenate said:
No no nope. You dont get to make up everybody's mind on why we, society, mete out punishment. Some, for example, simply cannot be deterred...so are we just to set them free? No. Silly.

Emotive vengence? Where out of left field does that come from? Penalties in rule books are what? emotive vengence prior to the fact? The folks that create speeding laws sit around after they make the law rubbing their hands together in anticipatory vengence?
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The purpose of speeding fines is to discourage people from speeding. If the purpose of any punishment isn't deterrence (of the subject or other potential offenders), what else could be the purpose?

Gaugingcatenate said:
Okay...you see what you did there, substituted "beating" someone with spanking.
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I was mainly trying to avoid sexual connotations. Regardless of the term, we're talking about the same thing.

Gaugingcatenate said:
Besides, I will bet many an employee, just like the students, all three, might choose the swats. I am betting even many adults would rather that than a cut in salary, demotion, etc.
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We're not talking about offences that would justify salary or demotion and I never said anything about getting any choice. Turn up late for work and you face corporal punishment.

Gaugingcatenate said:
Waterboarding...
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Not really the topic here, worthy of it's own thread if you really care.
 
HonestJoe said:
I thought the evidence was fairly common knowledge;
The case against spanking
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/

I don't think you can establish any direct correlation between corporal punishment of children and success of nations. It's been traditional practice pretty much everywhere, including plenty of parts of the world you probably don't consider successful, such as the Middle East and Africa. If anything, there has probably been more resistance and less consistent practice in Western nations in recent decades (hence our discussion).

The level of explanation would be the same regardless of whether it's been reinforced by physical punishment or some other form. But yet again, my point wasn't about protecting very young children who can't be reasoned with, it was about punishment of older teenagers after the fact.

The purpose of speeding fines is to discourage people from speeding. If the purpose of any punishment isn't deterrence (of the subject or other potential offenders), what else could be the purpose?

I was mainly trying to avoid sexual connotations. Regardless of the term, we're talking about the same thing.

We're not talking about offences that would justify salary or demotion and I never said anything about getting any choice. Turn up late for work and you face corporal punishment.

Not really the topic here, worthy of it's own thread if you really care.
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And I thought the empiricle evidence of not merely centuries but thousands of years was even MORE common knowledge. See: World History

Despite some nations being super successful applying this time tested approach...show me instead any even close comparison of successful civilizations who do not use corporal punishment as a tool in guiding youth to maturity.

Dont bring up the extraneous if you dont want it commented upon, specifically if you dont desire it to be disproved. As regard older children, still children, I would suggest that the kids involved, with that method chosen over others and with the admission that it did them no harm, lets see if they walk out of class to protest again, eh? Success is, well, successful, yano?

That is just not logical. If a serial pedophile is caught, does his time and then immediately re-offends each and every time he gets out, showing that deterrence has failed...do we just let him free to prey upon innocent children, potentially messing up their entire lives? Or do we go ahead and give him more prison time? Should Bernie Madoff, since nobody will ever trust him with their investments again and so impossible to re offend, not be jailed for all the money he stole and elderly livilhoods destroyed?

Speeding fines are good revenue source for local governments, for one. Almost everyone speeds, nobody wants to be caught, but speeding isnt and has not been deterred.

I think what specific style infractions the CP is to be designed to guard against, when applied and how would be left up to the individual business. If allowed, made legal, that would probably be stipulated, agreed upon during the hiring process. If you didnt want the punishment you dont have to accept employment...or could quit. Again, you dont make the rules...and harkening back to the Arkansas student story, they WERE given a choice and they were not even adults. However, its your example and if you were the employer and those were the agreed upon consequences at hiring for showing up late...

I was just using waterboarding as being on a similar track as CP. Both should be tools in the discipline toolbox...based, of course on differing circumstances. And no, I made my point.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Despite some nations being super successful applying this time tested approach...show me instead any even close comparison of successful civilizations who do not use corporal punishment as a tool in guiding youth to maturity.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_corporal_punishment_laws#Prohibition; So Sweden, Norway and Austria have banned it for decades, South Africa and Zimbabwe had it until last year. :)

Again, you've demonstrated no obvious correlation between corporal punishment of children and "success" of a nation. You've not really tried to since just saying "World history!" isn't evidence of anything.

Gaugingcatenate said:
Dont bring up the extraneous if you dont want it commented upon, specifically if you dont desire it to be disproved.
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You brought up younger children, not me. The reasoning you provide to support corporal punishment for very young children doesn't work for older ones, hence your attempt to shift the goalposts.

Gaugingcatenate said:
As regard older children, still children, I would suggest that the kids involved, with that method chosen over others and with the admission that it did them no harm, lets see if they walk out of class to protest again, eh? Success is, well, successful, yano?
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If it caused him no pain (and I'm not sure about the interpretation of that statement) and he even used it as to further promote his protest, how is it any kind of deterrent? If anything, the fact the school allows corporal punishment made the form of protest more likely. Even if corporal punishment worked for normal behavioural issues, this would be a poor example.

Gaugingcatenate said:
That is just not logical. If a serial pedophile is caught, does his time and then immediately re-offends each and every time he gets out, showing that deterrence has failed...do we just let him free to prey upon innocent children, potentially messing up their entire lives?
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What does that have to do with anything I said? I'm saying legal punishments are intended as deterrents. I never said the ways they're applied as always effective. You've still not explained what the legitimate purpose of a legal punishment would be if it isn't as a deterrent.

Gaugingcatenate said:
Speeding fines are good revenue source for local governments, for one. Almost everyone speeds, nobody wants to be caught, but speeding isnt and has not been deterred.
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Maybe next time you get caught speeding, the officer should bend you over your car at the side of the road and give you a couple of swipes with his nightstick?
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
I am no Christian, not religious at all except my personal relationship with the creator, but that is one of my all time favorite truisms across cultures. Moderation can be emancipating. Speaking of which, I need a break from this site.
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Having lost my religion decades ago, but still fascinated by the behavior caused by religion, I consider myself spiritual, but not religious.
 
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