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Armed with an AR-15, military veteran keeps watch on Indiana high school

MSgt said:
I think I harbor more hate for the cult members than the cult. Pointless.
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I can agree with you on that one. There are BAD apples in the NRA, As well as the DOJ, FBI, local Law enforcement and McDonalds Working crew. THIS is the Human Factor that we need to work on. Its not the Tool or the organization that is at fault.
 
lefty louie said:
All the anti gun groups forget it was an armed citizen with an AR 15 that shot the church shooter in Tx. not to long ago.
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I don't think anybody's "forgotten" that.

There's just something about dozens and dozens of dead elementary and high school kids that tend to matter more for some reason. Absurd, I know.
 
Exactice said:
Kelly and Cruz had access and WHY. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE. Address the issue not the tool.

Yes the AR is in fact a confidence builder. Its common usage. This allows people to manipulate it in a familiar matter so not to discharge it accidentally. The understand the grip, trigger, safety systems, how to properly load and unload. If I was given a Chinese or British Rifle Variant, I would be unfamiliar and more DANGEROUS with it Even though I have been around firearms all my life.

NOT all military personal are issued FULL auto Weapons THIS IS FALSE. Your Team is made up of designated responsibilities. Do you know WHY an automatic system is given to a specific member of a fire team? Its not initially meant to create mass casualties. As the USA ROE do not allow aggression. Its mean for defensive purposes to lay supressive fire so that other team remembers will be able to move in a defensive manner.

With that a "Machine Gunner" member has different engagement and training, than a standard rifle man. If what you are saying is true then WHY does NOT all Soldiers Carry a M249 Saw system open bolt belt fed system? Because its NOT effective NOR is it palatable in a violent engagement.


Social Dynamics. Do you want to know what the social dynamic is? Let me ask you a question and dont google it.

TELL me the UNIVERSAL 4 fundamental Firearm Safety rules. Just list them..... dont look it up do you know it by heart?

Why do other adults NOT know it and why do our CHILDREN not know it. IF these rules are always followed NO one should be shot in error.

Please do me this favor, tell me the 4 rules on the spot
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The Vegas shooter had access too.

Start there.
 
jet57 said:
The Vegas shooter had access too.

Start there.
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ALL LEGAL. He did not commit a crime to warrant him removing his firearms.


So again Social Human Dynamics, WHAT cracked this guy to commit such a crime.... Was it the TOOL? Or was it Him


And I guess you DONT know the 4 fundamental rules huh.
 
MSgt said:
The difference is our culture. Our grandfathers weren't driving around with cute little bumper stickers with pistols aimed at us daring us to honk again. Nor did they present side-by-side M16s and Glocks to represent their family members. Nor did our parents sit down to enjoy mass murder on video games like Grand Theft Auto.

Aside from the clever and fun little ways we celebrate our weapons today, our culture has become petrified of the terrorist or the immigrant who is undoubtedly hiding under our beds. Our politicians encourage us to arm up and be prepared for the Muslim invasion that is one step away from implementing Sharia. We have been told that we must defend freedom and liberty at all costs against those evil Liberals who want to oppress us and dare try to make school lunches healthier. Our lame ideologies have consumed us.

In the mean time, buy as many weapons as possible and hunker down. For the simple-minded and the petrified, mass shootings are less a tragedy and more of an inconvenience that forces the issue that they don't want to see. This is why the simple response to mass shootings is to simply hand out guns to the Choir teacher.



I don't think you are wrong here; and this is what angers me about the gun advocacy groups that hide their irresponsibility under the Second Amendment. Obviously, I'm a fan of the Second Amendment, but times are changing. People are getting fed up with how gun owners have refused to really address this growing problem. It's self fulfilling prophesy. Their greatest fear appears to be that Pelosi will have the power. But they can't seem to get that the longer that they deny, the bigger this anti-gun crowd grows.

As a responsible gun owner, I want the Second Amendment and the word "responsibility" to be synonymous. But they aren't. The NRA continues to see to that. The NRA's ultimate goal is gun anarchy and soaring sales. I can't stand that my very earned Rights hinge on the lowest denominator's Right to the same instruments.
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When you start intimidating dead family members by NRA advocates attend funerals, you cross a line that cannot be re-crossed. Charlton Heston did more damage to the 2nd amendment than a thousand Nancy Pelosi's could have ever hoped. That act shouted that 'gun owners have no humanity'.

In that time I have heard the commentary outside the US go from being critical to outright horror. The CBC is probably the driest news ever read and THEY lead the Florida shooting with "America's unique fondness for firearms has claimed more live. This time high school students".

First line blames "America's unique fondness for firearms.."

Our hunters would fight to preserve their right to hunt and do. But in the US the horror has become an insanity and yes, your ideologies are indeed killing you, literally.
 
jet57 said:
None of that has anything to do with a random civilian situation. The fact that Kelly and Cruz had access and the will is the only thing that mattered. An AR15 / AR Ruger is a confidence builder: that's why military personnel are issued full auto weaponry with high capacity rounds and high capacity clips (lots of 'em). The "military" is part of the social dynamic that we live with today, thus the military weaponry and "Oohhaa" attitudes. We have militarized ourselves into this mess. Your force continuum is only exacerbating the fix we're in.
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All that WRONG packed in to one paragraph....

What "automatic" weapons are issued? (Other than THE MG dude)
 
Kal'Stang said:
See, I'm not all THAT bad Nimby. ;)

And I'm glad you are taking note of that. Fixing that alone would help stop a lot of mass shootings. Not all granted. But it would have helped in several of the last few school mass shootings.
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This is where DP Life is indeed Real Life, with me gathering great ideas from all of you and passing them on.
This will end well. We must believe that.

It's well past time for me to end my moronic posting, going forward.
I really feel that you and I have a lot of common ground, and too much lost time for which to make up.
As for some of my past posting on DP, Remorse and Regret aren't exactly the R's I wish to carry going forward.

I am obviously concerned about the proliferation of these weapons to 'legal' people.
I've tried and done my best, at this moment, in this thread.

And just this note. I appreciate you speaking of your Wife. That's for real.
My Teaching Wife is type B; holds it all in until she goes down, like right now.
I'm worried about her, and I normally respond well. This one really got to her.
I'm obviously type A, for Asshole far too many times in my Life ...
 
NIMBY said:
This is where DP Life is indeed Real Life, with me gathering great ideas from all of you and passing them on.
This will end well. We must believe that.

It's well past time for me to end my moronic posting, going forward.
I really feel that you and I have a lot of common ground, and too much lost time for which to make up.
As for some of my past posting on DP, Remorse and Regret aren't exactly the R's I wish to carry going forward.

I am obviously concerned about the proliferation of these weapons to 'legal' people.
I've tried and done my best, at this moment, in this thread.

And just this note. I appreciate you speaking of your Wife. That's for real.
My Teaching Wife is type B; holds it all in until she goes down, like right now.
I'm worried about her, and I normally respond well. This one really got to her.
I'm obviously type A, for Asshole far too many times in my Life ...
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Nimby Great post BTW.....

I too am a Type A and have my moments. "Takes a greater man to admit their short falls" I for one have many.

That I use DP to learn more and expand my knowledge more. Right or wrong I see what the will of others speak. I respect it until they disrespect me. While I say there are MANY here that are Awesome. We may not agree but we can still respect each other and come together. There are some that are just @SSholes and well they can continue to be so.


Anyways..... Fear not, We as humans have a will..... right or wrong.... we all need to come together to address and help those that NEED help. And the first person to see someone that needs help and address them is a start... be the family that the person wants, be the lover that the person wants.... but most of all be the friend that a person needs.
 
NIMBY said:
This is where DP Life is indeed Real Life, with me gathering great ideas from all of you and passing them on.
This will end well. We must believe that.

It's well past time for me to end my moronic posting, going forward.
I really feel that you and I have a lot of common ground, and too much lost time for which to make up.
As for some of my past posting on DP, Remorse and Regret aren't exactly the R's I wish to carry going forward.

I am obviously concerned about the proliferation of these weapons to 'legal' people.
I've tried and done my best, at this moment, in this thread.

And just this note. I appreciate you speaking of your Wife. That's for real.
My Teaching Wife is type B; holds it all in until she goes down, like right now.
I'm worried about her, and I normally respond well. This one really got to her.
I'm obviously type A, for Asshole far too many times in my Life ...
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I appreciate this Nimby. Thank you. I truly hope for the best for you and your wife.

And yes, I'm a Type A also. My wife tells me this all the time. ;) lol
 
Kal'Stang said:
While there were no where near as many guns numerically as there are now...there was a higher rate of gun ownership then. And the AR-15 has been around since the 1950's. That is in my grandfathers lifetime. So yes, they were just as "calibrated" as the weaponry that we have today. So it looks to me like your "answer" is incorrect. Want to try again?

The rest of your post was nothing more than hyperbolic BS. So no need to respond to it.
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The AR15 as we know it, began production in 1989; so you're wrong again. The rate of ownership in the older generation was directly the result of rural living; so there goes that idea for you as well.

I think that you should just face that you are about out of touch with respect to the issue and have no hope of proving me wrong here.
 
Fearandloathing said:
The most sense..

Sorry, but the American populace may have become hardened to the issue, but armed guards in schools is not a good solution at all. It is not a society I would live in as every other country on the face of the earth not being used as a proxy war have safe, welcoming classrooms, which is what children deserve and have every right to expect.

Americans, you're going to band aid this absurd and amendment so much none of you will be able to recognize right from wrong, and armed guards in schools wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yeah, go ahead used veterans, and one of them goes off with latent PTSD what will be your solution then?
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I thought about the PTSD but I think that is less of a risk than teachers.

Personally, from my point of view, there is no need for any gun in schools. There are far better solutions but they will never be implemented. The aryan brothe...., I mean Republican party, and NRA are pushing for and scaring normal minded people into arming teachers. Some states already are allowing it, and many more are considering it. People are irrational when they are scared.

IMO there is no way to avoid armed "someone" in schools. I don't want that to be teachers.
 
jet57 said:
He's not talking about any solutions just like you aren't capable of talking about any solutions either. And beyond not having any productive ideas whatsoever you jump in here with "feel good" BS, like "skeery gun" BS.
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Your solutions begin, encompass, and end with gun control. We need to embrace multiple solutions to this problem because gun control alone won't get there. Admitting that would be a good first step on your part.
 
He'll be gone in a week after he's talked about on social media and the media.
Just wants his 15
 
Kreton said:
I thought about the PTSD but I think that is less of a risk than teachers.

Personally, from my point of view, there is no need for any gun in schools. There are far better solutions but they will never be implemented. The aryan brothe...., I mean Republican party, and NRA are pushing for and scaring normal minded people into arming teachers. Some states already are allowing it, and many more are considering it. People are irrational when they are scared.

IMO there is no way to avoid armed "someone" in schools. I don't want that to be teachers.
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In the end children still get slaughtered.

Pardon me, but the US is the only country that allows such ****
 
American said:
There risk in everything, and what makes you think no vetting will occur? This has never been done in modern times, so assuming the worst is misguided.
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The problem is the plan we've seen so far is, "Who the hell knows?????" And the specifics, how they're vetted, their 'rules of engagement', background checks, insurance, training, etc. etc. matter significantly. IMO, any school board that doesn't strenuously object to random Rambo wannabes setting up outside their schools heavily armed to "protect" the kids is begging for an accident/shooting and a 7 or 8 figure lawsuit. They might not be able to prevent these guys from being there, but any school that expresses even slight approval of it without getting a couple dozen significant, critical ducks in a row, is reckless and irresponsible.
 
jet57 said:
The AR15 as we know it, began production in 1989; so you're wrong again. The rate of ownership in the older generation was directly the result of rural living; so there goes that idea for you as well.

I think that you should just face that you are about out of touch with respect to the issue and have no hope of proving me wrong here.
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Ah, the AR-15 "as we know it". Cute. Talk about mincing words. In any case, my grandfathers were still quite alive in 1989. And there were guns just as dangerous as an AR-15 in the 50's even if you don't want to accept the AR-15 as an example. Or are you going to ignore the fact that there were many types of semi-auto guns in production back then?

In any case you attempt to dismiss history is amusing. It just goes to show how much you want to ignore the fact that guns are not the problem.

And I understand the issue just fine. You're the one that wants to blame an inanimate object for the actions of a person.
 
jimbo said:
I don't know where you spent your basic training, but that wasn't my experience. I was a 911 MOS, advanced pencil pusher, but the first 8 weeks was spent learning to kick in doors, identifying the bad guys, and knocking them down with my rifle. After 8 weeks I knew which end went first. I still do.
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Ummm not sure which Army you were in, or perhaps you should proofread the MOS you're attempting to claim... :roll:

Were you a knuckle buster- not what I'd call pencil pusher but I guess you could have been one of their clerks...

I now live near Ft. Sill which sent hundreds of non grunts from artillery units to the sandbox to do everything from perimeter patrols to convoy escort. They didn't get the training you claimed to have gotten in Basic, they had to undergo extensive training before deploying. They are considered combat arms but not even close to a grunt.

Now the vast majority of personnel don't have 'field' even mentioned in their MOS and quite frankly don't even want to know what field duty is and what a blood bath real deal door kicking can be. Ft. Sill's basic trainees are not taught to door kick and most can identify the pointy end but that does little for working on a two way range (well at least they won't shoot themselves)

Nice try though (I'm sure you and your fellow BT graduates were some of the most fearsome Pogueys the Army ever churned out)... :peace
 
Fearandloathing said:
In the end children still get slaughtered.

Pardon me, but the US is the only country that allows such ****
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They will. It is sad, but people are focusing the fix on violent solutions. The school environments breed hate in these children especially with the bullying that goes unpunished. Mental health issues go unchecked and largely only come to light after a child has done something bad because many people, even with healthcare, can't afford to do much. I've said it before, if anyone truly wants to stop school shootings, stop the children from wanting to murder their peers. As long as the desire to commit murder exists, murders will continue.

But as I said before, the arming of "someone" is schools seems inevitable. Something is coming.
 
Kreton said:
They will. It is sad, but people are focusing the fix on violent solutions.
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We are focusing our fix on 'prevention' at the local level, in all respects.
We don't have any more time to lose waiting for federal and state officials to do nothing.
The school environments breed hate in these children especially with the bullying that goes unpunished.
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We have a very active and positive program dealing with all forms of bullying.
I would advise everyone to find out what their schools are doing on every issue.
Mental health issues go unchecked
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People need to look into their local mental health agencies in combination with schools to see what they're doing.
and largely only come to light after a child has done something bad because many people,
even with healthcare, can't afford to do much.
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Family members of the deranged insane are part of the problem, until they're part of the solution.
Our local professionals are actively doing something right now in this area.
I've said it before, if anyone truly wants to stop school shootings, stop the children from wanting to murder their peers. As long as the desire to commit murder exists, murders will continue.
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You sound like someone who has a lot to offer on this problem in real life going forward.
But as I said before, the arming of "someone" is schools seems inevitable. Something is coming.
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We already have armed police in our schools nationwide.
That horse is out of the barn.
Certain states already have CC on campus for 'select personnel'.
I'd suggest everyone be part of the solution, rather than listening to naysayers of the USA, foreign and at home ...
 
notquiteright said:
Ummm not sure which Army you were in, or perhaps you should proofread the MOS you're attempting to claim... :roll:

Were you a knuckle buster- not what I'd call pencil pusher but I guess you could have been one of their clerks...

I now live near Ft. Sill which sent hundreds of non grunts from artillery units to the sandbox to do everything from perimeter patrols to convoy escort. They didn't get the training you claimed to have gotten in Basic, they had to undergo extensive training before deploying. They are considered combat arms but not even close to a grunt.

Now the vast majority of personnel don't have 'field' even mentioned in their MOS and quite frankly don't even want to know what field duty is and what a blood bath real deal door kicking can be. Ft. Sill's basic trainees are not taught to door kick and most can identify the pointy end but that does little for working on a two way range (well at least they won't shoot themselves)

Nice try though (I'm sure you and your fellow BT graduates were some of the most fearsome Pogueys the Army ever churned out)... :peace
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I was in in 1960-1963. That MOS seems to have disappeared - Ordnance technical intelligence analyst. 910, 911. My unit is no longer at Heidelberg. 91st Ordinance Detachment TIC. No knuckle busting. Strictly pushed paper.
 
MSgt said:
But this is not entirely accurate at all...

- It was the Left (Clinton) who made the rules about automatic weapons while the Right screamed "not my guns!"
- It was the Left (Obama) who pushed a rule that would have added people with severe mental disabilities to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System while the Right screamed "not my guns!"
- It was the Right (Trump) and the ACLU who cheered when that rule was immediately rolled-back.
- It was the Left who wanted a ban on bump stocks last year while the right screamed "not my guns!"


Nowhere in all of this has the Left tried to repeal the Second Amendment. They aren't coming for our guns. But no matter what the issue is, "not my guns" is the only response that we ever hear from the Right and "control" has become a synonym for "confiscation." Even with Adam Lanza, James Holmes, and Nikolas Cruz presenting us with a common theme of mental illness, something easily dealt with, it is the Right that continues to see the gun as the solution to all problems. You read it all the time. "Cain't do nuthin' 'bout the crazies!" In the man time, the Right is fond of reducing economic programs that deal with the nation's mentally ill and fond of whatever may open the door wider to guns for all. It's only a matter of time before we start hearing that the 14 year-old has the right to protect himself at school.

Organizations like the NRA and the ACLU would rather dance around on their political soap boxes than actually address the issue at hand and push responsibility ahead of their ideologies. But the difference is that the ACLU didn't have much support from the Left when it expressed its pleasure with the roll back. The NRA, and it's legion of nuts however, only saw political victory. So this is very much a conservative-versus-liberal issue because conservatives want it that way. You never hear the phrase "gun-toting conservatives," because plenty of Democrats own weapons. But "the liberals just want my guns" consumes the Right.
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hmmm

House Democrats introduce bill prohibiting sale of semi-automatic weapons
 
jimbo said:
I was in in 1960-1963. That MOS seems to have disappeared - Ordnance technical intelligence analyst. 910, 911. My unit is no longer at Heidelberg. 91st Ordinance Detachment TIC. No knuckle busting. Strictly pushed paper.
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My wife was one of the last WACs, ASA. Listened to morse code. Her unit's 'tactical' exercise to train for the Warsaw Pact crossing the border was to guard the door of their building for three days... :roll:

They barely knew blunt end from pointy. These days most trainees barely get any weapon's training- quals are done on a 25 meter range. The vast majority of 'soldiers' see a weapon once a year and spend their days being civilians who know how to but perhaps not always when to salute.

What may have happened 50 years ago in no way bears on what is done today. (I'd also opine a 70 year old man may know how to shoot but you need to shoot and scoot which is a young man's game.)

These days I enjoy listening to the retirees and the REMFs vets who get out early but still love to tell 'war stories'. I have to smile and when they ask me what I did- I say 9 years 11Bush and 60% disability due to wounds... that almost always ends their story telling time. Now they may have thought themselves quite salty hanging around other REMFs but I have yet to meet a 'door kicker' Poguey... :peace
 
TurtleDude said:
hmmm

House Democrats introduce bill prohibiting sale of semi-automatic weapons
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Yes, this would be the self-fulfilling prophesy argument you've seen me make since last year while you all were arguing over "assault" definitions, "silencer" specs, and bump stock shrugs. After all this history, "not my guns" has brought us to this. You all have exploited the Second Amendment to push away the imagined liberal confiscation army for so long that you are making it come true. And this is nothing to what is undoubtedly ahead.

I have warned and warned you people that the longer you do nothing and act like nothing is wrong, the greater the anti-gun crowd is going to gain traction. They didn't do this after Sandy Hook. Didn't do this after Aurora. Didn't do this after Vegas. As "responsible" gun owners, we merely kicked that can of irresponsibility down the road each time. But after Florida? People are fed up. We actually have gun owners sawing their AR-15s in half and companies distancing themselves from the NRA now.

You have yourselves to blame, not Democrats. Responsible gun owners and the NRA should have gotten ahead of this a long time ago. Instead, you all self-fulfilled your own prophesy of doom. Where exactly did you think a promotion of apathy was going to eventually lead? Hmmm.
 
JasperL said:
The problem is the plan we've seen so far is, "Who the hell knows?????" And the specifics, how they're vetted, their 'rules of engagement', background checks, insurance, training, etc. etc. matter significantly. IMO, any school board that doesn't strenuously object to random Rambo wannabes setting up outside their schools heavily armed to "protect" the kids is begging for an accident/shooting and a 7 or 8 figure lawsuit. They might not be able to prevent these guys from being there, but any school that expresses even slight approval of it without getting a couple dozen significant, critical ducks in a row, is reckless and irresponsible.
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There are already schools doing this for YEARS, did you know that?
 
American said:
There are already schools doing this for YEARS, did you know that?
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Then someone should cite an article with the specifics of those arrangements. The OP and the topic of THIS THREAD had none of those details. I can't speak to unknown arrangements in unknown schools in unknown cities and states. My crystal ball ain't working.
 
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