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Broward Deputies to Carry Rifles on School Grounds: Sheriff

OpportunityCost said:
Well, no ****. But we don't live in a perfect world. If we did, we wouldn't need the 2nd amendment either!
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Here; have a -

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I just don't know what else to say to you.
 
Truckstop said:
TBH the more I think about it the less I like it. I understand things change and we have to do things we don't want to, but what if raising kids in prison environments is partially to blame for breaking some of them. I just don't know. I just know they will never feel as safe as I felt in school in small town Montana in the late 70's early 80's and that sucks for them.
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My wife's been down for the count since getting home from school after 5:00 today.
And, Thursday has notoriously been the most unruly day at our HS through discipline referrals since they've been keeping records.

We have one the highest rates of CC in our state.
It's worth a look to have parents, parents who are well known and trusted members of the community, who are dropping off and picking up students, to be organized by our school administration, against this terrorism in this most sad state of affairs.

These parents of course could even be plainclothes police, fire etc. with kids in that school.
Coming and going from school is absolutely the most dangerous times for our kids. I'm a retired teacher.
Low key surveillance is my approach.

I flipped over to i24news based out of Israel this past hour, their live version known as Stateside.
Their take on Florida is must see viewing imho, discussing arming teachers specifically, though I feel this way on all their reporting.
This is my only source of global cable, where last night I saw Ambassador Haley and Mr. Dodan, the Israeli foreign minister, speak to the UN.

Amb. Haley did well, except for continued, unnecessary, and debatable criticism of Obama, ruining her message imv.
But, Mr. Dodan gave the most powerful speech I've ever seen, and I am not hyperventilating.
I am also not a defender of the potentially indictable current Israeli leader ...
 
Mr Person said:
1. The shooter won't go through the parking lot.

2. What happens if a volunteer citizen ends up killing someone in the name of security and is wrong?

Among other questions...
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Right. Because cops are infallible and shooters don't use parking lots.:doh
 
Lutherf said:
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Deputies-to-Carry-Rifles-on-School-Grounds-474763143.html



Seriously? That's a whole lot of overreaction. The kids are supposed to be going to school, not prison camp.

I get it, there's a deterrence factor. Deterrents are good but it's really easy to overdo it and that's what this feels like. A trained individual with a handgun will be more than capable of taking out an untrained kid with an AR inside a school.

You want safety? Start the security zone at the entrance to the parking lot. Solicit volunteers from the community (LOTS of retired LE and Military in most communities) to assist in security. Get these volunteers to engage with the kids, the parents and the teachers. Find out where the hot spots are and keep an eye on them.
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Typical. Guard the hen house AFTER the fox ate your chickens.
 
faithful_servant said:
They are learning that their society cares enough about them to protect them from bad people. You're acting like these people are threats to the children and not protectors. The kids aren't confined like they are in a prison, they are protected from harm by trained and armed people who are willing to use deadly force if necessary since our children are worth it.
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No I'm not. I didn't say anything that would lead a reasonable person to that opinion. In fact, I refuted what you said in the sentences after the one you bolded. This is just you, being you.
 
Lutherf said:
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Deputies-to-Carry-Rifles-on-School-Grounds-474763143.html



Seriously? That's a whole lot of overreaction. The kids are supposed to be going to school, not prison camp.

I get it, there's a deterrence factor. Deterrents are good but it's really easy to overdo it and that's what this feels like. A trained individual with a handgun will be more than capable of taking out an untrained kid with an AR inside a school.

You want safety? Start the security zone at the entrance to the parking lot. Solicit volunteers from the community (LOTS of retired LE and Military in most communities) to assist in security. Get these volunteers to engage with the kids, the parents and the teachers. Find out where the hot spots are and keep an eye on them.
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They're on the right track, but they'll never be able to provide enough deputies.

Stopgap measure until good security can be provided.
 
Casper said:
We need to change the laws so that someone that is exhibiting anti-social tendencies, saying or doing erratic or strange things can be brought into a professional and diagnosed as to whether they are a threat to themselves of others. We will never get them all but it would stop many of them since most have a history of strange behavior.
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I'm good with that, in principle. Always seems to come up against the constitution, though. How do you deal with people proactively without violating their rights?
Sometimes it looks like the constitution is a wall impeding social progress. Protecting a society that's been left far behind by the modern world.
 
Grand Mal said:
I'm good with that, in principle. Always seems to come up against the constitution, though. How do you deal with people proactively without violating their rights?
Sometimes it looks like the constitution is a wall impeding social progress. Protecting a society that's been left far behind by the modern world.
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That will be a discussion that takes place among people above my pay grade, only they have the power to actually address the issue. I know this; if we keep repeating the same mistakes we will continue to reap the same results.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Well, back in my early days the threat wasn't guns...it was knives. Not penknives, but switchblades. No one was stupid enough to mess with someone like that...we just reported it and let the adults handle it.

Of course, thanks to gangs that evolved into guns. But mostly to deal with rival gangs. Still, in NYC they had schools with armed police and metal detectors my last couple of years in High School.
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But now it's not just NYC, is it? 67 percent of schools in America now must have a plan in place for "active shooters" and drill for such. And guns are FAR deadlier than knives (although I've seen one conservative try to argue otherwise).

The question is, just how bad does it have to get, how many times does it have to happen before we take care of the real problem - the problem that conservatives and libertarians utterly refuse to acknowledge - the ease with which the general population (including the bad guys) can acquire firearms?
 
Vox said:
They're on the right track, but they'll never be able to provide enough deputies.

Stopgap measure until good security can be provided.
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It's overkill and it addresses the symptoms of a problem, not the cause.

I had that CNN town hall on in the other room and listened in a little here and there. What I heard was a lot of people asking about who was going to do something about this problem. Well, that's the wrong response. The right response is "here's what I can do to help the problem". This whole school shooting thing is as much a product of people looking for someone else to solve their problems for them as it is anything else. The family wants the school to fix their kid, the school wants the mental health system to fix the kid, the mental health system wants the lawyers to fix the kid and everyone looks to the government for answers. Well, the answers are staring you in the face every morning when you shave. It's you (generic "you") that has to be the one to step up. Take some interest in the kid and do what you can to help. Find out what issues he's having. Talk to him. Listen to him. Talk to social workers who can steer you to the path to get him the help he needs. Follow up to make sure he's actually getting that help. Talk to the people around him to get their take on what's going on and encourage them to help you help him. That kind of thing is going to do a hell of a lot more than posting some gate guard with an M-16 at the school door.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
But now it's not just NYC, is it? 67 percent of schools in America now must have a plan in place for "active shooters" and drill for such. And guns are FAR deadlier than knives (although I've seen one conservative try to argue otherwise).

The question is, just how bad does it have to get, how many times does it have to happen before we take care of the real problem - the problem that conservatives and libertarians utterly refuse to acknowledge - the ease with which the general population (including the bad guys) can acquire firearms?
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Sorry, since I consider the right to keep and bear arms an essential right, I am not going to argue for making it hard to obtain a firearm.

I prefer to focus efforts on examining the root causes that lead people to using such weapons against their fellow citizens, and then finding ways to address those root causes.

I will also continue to oppose access to weapons that I do not believe are covered by the right (i.e. explosive ordinance, crew-served weapons, area effect weapons).

But as I think the first line of defense is always taking responsibility for one's own self-defense, I will never support means and methods for making it hard for a citizen to keep and bear arms.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Sorry, since I consider the right to keep and bear arms an essential right, I am not going to argue for making it hard to obtain a firearm.

I prefer to focus efforts on examining the root causes that lead people to using such weapons against their fellow citizens, and they finding ways to address those root causes.

I will also continue to oppose access to weapons that I do not believe are covered by the right (i.e. explosive ordinance, crew-served weapons, area effect weapons).

But as I think the first line of defense is always taking responsibility for one's own self-defense, I will never support means and methods for making it hard for a citizen to keep and bear arms.
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The root cause for people using such weapons on their fellow citizens, sir, is that firearms make it much easier to do so. That's it in a nutshell. No other weapon allows one to physically take lives, take revenge, or whatever at such a distance. And no, this is not blowing anything out of proportion - the easier something is to do, the more people will do it...even if it's wrong. That's human nature.

There are other factors involved, yes - and those factors are (1) the ease with which those firearms are acquired i.e. they're relatively cheap compared to most of the rest of the world, (2) they are not effectively regulated, and (3) poverty. That last factor is every bit as important as the first two - the poorer the population, and the more firearms that population has, the higher the homicide rate will be. You don't have to take my word for it - all you need do is to look at where our homicide rates are highest: the inner cities and the poor rural areas (e.g. the Deep South, West Virginia, rural Alaska, etc.)...whereas the other, more prosperous (i.e. low poverty) areas where gun ownership is high, the homicide rate is much lower (though still much higher than those of other first-world nations).

So if you really, truly want to decrease our national homicide rates, all one need do is to make it more difficult for the poor to easily purchase firearms, and this can only be done by making firearms much more expensive, and by requiring registration, and by doing what is necessary to decrease the poverty in America.

It's really easy...but in America, it's impossible...all because a whole wide swath of our political body would rather preserve their "right" to own any firearm up to and including automatic weapons, and that this is somehow more precious than the thousands of innocent American men, women, and children who are murdered every year because firearms make it so easy, almost effortless to do so.
 
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You need a bigger government to protect children from the firearms you claim protect you from the government ?

:doh
 
Glen Contrarian said:
The root cause for people using such weapons on their fellow citizens, sir, is that firearms make it much easier to do so. That's it in a nutshell.
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No. :no:

The root cause(s) are those motives that drive a person into thinking that they need to act out in violence rather than seek some other solution.

Yes, they currently use guns. But correlation does not imply causation...and it is the causation that MUST be addressed.

Tens, if not hundreds of millions of US citizens own guns, but only a tiny fraction engage in gun violence, and an even tinier subset of that fraction engage in mass shootings.

So while it may well be true that those few people can express their violence easier because they have easier access to guns, that does not mean the guns are the cause of their violent actions.

Eliminate the desire to engage in violence, then mere ownership of the tool itself will not compel them to act out in such a way.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
No. :no:

The root cause(s) are those motives that drive a person into thinking that they need to act out in violence rather than seek some other solution.

Yes, they currently use guns. But correlation does not imply causation...and it is the causation that MUST be addressed.

Tens, if not hundreds of millions of US citizens own guns, but only a tiny fraction engage in gun violence, and an even tinier subset of that fraction engage in mass shootings.

So while it may well be true that those few people can express their violence easier because they have easier access to guns, that does not mean the guns are the cause of their violent actions.

Eliminate the desire to engage in violence, then mere ownership of the tool itself will not compel them to act out in such a way.
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You'll never stop people from wanting to do what they want to do, even if it's wrong - all you can do is to make it harder for them to do that which is wrong. Thing is, if that person has in his possession something that enables him to do that thing quickly and easily, then he will be more likely to do it. The firearm is not the cause, but it IS the enabler, or is the strongest of the several enablers involved. As I said, the easier something is to do, the more people will do it, even if it's wrong. Firearms, being the major enabling factor, make it much easier to kill, and so more Americans do so. However, there are the other factors I listed, such as regulation and poverty...and while these factors will significantly affect the homicide rate, it does not at all change the fact that firearms are the major enabler since they allow the criminal to commit the crime at a distance, even against others who are bigger, stronger, and even better-armed.

That being said, I did address your point with my description of the effect of poverty. Even if we only took care of the poverty without addressing the other factors I listed, that in and of itself would decrease the gun violence...but only to a point. Besides, you're a libertarian - would a libertarian really, truly want to try to change the thinking of people? Seems to me that it would be a violation of libertarian doctrine to want to change the way human beings think down to the level of their basic emotions.
 
Grand Mal said:
Wow.
How'd it ever come to this? Ever wonder what those children- you're talking about elementary schools too, right?- ever wonder what those children are learning about their society?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the need for armed security in schools and, to my surprise, I agree with allowing teachers to be armed. But man oh man, any effects of institutionalization on adults, being confined in a guarded facility, must be multiplied in children.
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I think 3 steps that would have a major impact would be:
1. Allow teachers to carry concealed (voluntary and attend training with local law enforcement)
2. Having a psychiatrist on payroll at the school that problem kids could be referred to so they can identify potential threats and possibly deter them from reaching the point of mass murder.
3. MSM collectively stop mentioning the name/pictures of the shooter and as minimal details as possible (The number killed or injured). Semi-automatic guns have been around for over 150 years, yet school shootings didn't really ramp up until after the 24/7 news cycles became the norm. This would likely never happen since they pretty much go with the "if it bleeds, it leads." mentality.

The only real cost would be the psychiatrist on staff, but I think it would be worth it considering the mental issues (particularly within the white community) we same to be having as of late.
 
Lutherf said:
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Deputies-to-Carry-Rifles-on-School-Grounds-474763143.html



Seriously? That's a whole lot of overreaction. The kids are supposed to be going to school, not prison camp..
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Law Enforcement is providing them with a safe environment to learn in. Also..... They are a legal safety. If anything goes wrong..... the 100% of the legal blame would most likely go to the Sheriffs Office.

Provide Security and take the legal responsibility / blame ; in the event of a lawsuit / court case. And its free --- the Sheriff is providing a willing and free service.



Lutherf said:




You want safety? Start the security zone at the entrance to the parking lot. Solicit volunteers from the community (LOTS of retired LE and Military in most communities) to assist in security. Get these volunteers to engage with the kids, the parents and the teachers.
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Overview.

Carry a firearm. Stay observant and viligant. Watch for potential threats. Look at / watch entry points where a threat could come from. Watch / look at possible concealed places and locations where a threat could observe / watch ....and eventually - approach from === Distant buildings, windows --- Shrubbery / hedges / bushes / landscaping locations.

Look for things and people, that are out of place - don't match - stick out - or a trying hard to hide, or camouflage themselves. The loner, the person exceptionally quiet, or carrying a backpack / briefcase / clothing bag..... When no one else is.

You have to see the threat and see the threat in time --- as to be able to deal with the threat before anyone innocent gets hurt.

Gaulking at the hot chick in the short skirt, or smiling at the buxom blonde in the lowcut blouse, or Ms.Money with her smile and flirty attitude is not going to save a life. Talking with the teachers, smoking a cigarette with the school bus driver and chatting, doing public relations work is not going to save a life.

If you want to talk to teachers, interact with school personnel, converse with with the good looking girl ; then join the PTA and leave the security work to the real people.



Lutherf said:
[URL="https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Deputies-to-Carry-Rifles-on-School-Grounds-474763143.html"] Find out where the hot spots are and keep an eye on them.
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That's what you find out when you do YOUR OWN threat assessment and security survey ! Most likely places to initiate the attack and approach from - best places for the perp to hide out inside the attack area till the attack is initiated - places where the bad guys watch and observe from - most likely route(s) for retreat and escape - places to link up with another vehicle to escape ....and ect --- ect --- ect --- ect --- ect.

Threat assessments and security surveys take time ; and should be the SOLE PROPERY & KNOWLEDGE of the security / law enforcement team.

Bad guys -- potential threat people - people whom could be problems / threats in the future. Do you own psyche / personality evaluation and assessment.





Major Lambda
 
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NIMBY said:
NIMBY said:
.................of the potentially indictable current Israeli leader ...
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You don't know the circumstances of the arrest. That is why we have courts. Keep this in mind ---- not everyone whom goes to court is found guilty. Sometimes and innocent person gets arrested and is found innocent in court..... OR is release from incarceration after being found innocent later.

Listen to the argument on both sides --- hear the evidence - judge the testimony ; and let the end deal decide your opinion of someone / crime on trial !

Listen and judge......absent of any prejudice or bias !




Major Lambda
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Lutherf said:
It's overkill and it addresses the symptoms of a problem, not the cause.

I had that CNN town hall on in the other room and listened in a little here and there. What I heard was a lot of people asking about who was going to do something about this problem. Well, that's the wrong response. The right response is "here's what I can do to help the problem". This whole school shooting thing is as much a product of people looking for someone else to solve their problems for them as it is anything else. The family wants the school to fix their kid, the school wants the mental health system to fix the kid, the mental health system wants the lawyers to fix the kid and everyone looks to the government for answers. Well, the answers are staring you in the face every morning when you shave. It's you (generic "you") that has to be the one to step up. Take some interest in the kid and do what you can to help. Find out what issues he's having. Talk to him. Listen to him. Talk to social workers who can steer you to the path to get him the help he needs. Follow up to make sure he's actually getting that help. Talk to the people around him to get their take on what's going on and encourage them to help you help him. That kind of thing is going to do a hell of a lot more than posting some gate guard with an M-16 at the school door.
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Those are wise words, to the point of the guard.

There are a lot of adults AND kids out there who need help. So many, in fact, that some will always fall through the cracks.

Thus the need for greatly improved AND armed security in schools and elsewhere.

We can all help by demanding a federal program to protect schools and improve mental health resources.

I'll help with that by paying my taxes. What would it cost each of us? Maybe a few hundred dollars a year extra?

Money well spent.
 
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jet57 said:
No - I hear all the idiot ideas on how we have to "protect the children!!!" and I think of prisons.

The truth is those armed guards should not be necessary.
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We would all love it if they weren't necessary, but the cold, hard truth is that they are. The fact that you can't seem to get outside of your paradigm of "guns = bad" does not negate that fact
 
Grand Mal said:
No I'm not. I didn't say anything that would lead a reasonable person to that opinion. In fact, I refuted what you said in the sentences after the one you bolded. This is just you, being you.
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You most certainly are imlpying that armed staff are threats. When you equate them prison guards, that's the equation you are presenting. Prison guards always have the threat of force towards the prisoners backing them up in their job, but armed staff have the threat of force towards those who would harm our children. By trying to make it sound like we're turning our schools into prisons with staff as the guards, the picture you are painting is that of a threat from the staff, not those the staff would protect our children from.
 
Lutherf said:
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Deputies-to-Carry-Rifles-on-School-Grounds-474763143.html



Seriously? That's a whole lot of overreaction. The kids are supposed to be going to school, not prison camp.

I get it, there's a deterrence factor. Deterrents are good but it's really easy to overdo it and that's what this feels like. A trained individual with a handgun will be more than capable of taking out an untrained kid with an AR inside a school.

You want safety? Start the security zone at the entrance to the parking lot. Solicit volunteers from the community (LOTS of retired LE and Military in most communities) to assist in security. Get these volunteers to engage with the kids, the parents and the teachers. Find out where the hot spots are and keep an eye on them.
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Or, ya know, maybe use those deputies to follow up on tips of potential school shooters....
 
Vox said:
Those are wise words, to the point of the guard.

There are a lot of adults AND kids out there who need help. So many, in fact, that some will always fall through the cracks.

Thus the need for greatly improved AND armed security in schools and elsewhere.

We can all help by demanding a federal program to protect schools and improve mental health resources.

I'll help with that by paying my taxes. What would it cost each of us? Maybe a few hundred dollars a year extra?

Money well spent.
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Money isn't going to fix the problem. People who actually give a damn will fix it, or at least take it down a few notches. Half the reason we have this mess is because people keep hollering "do something" instead of taking action themselves and when they holler like that the politicians just shovel money at the problem and patting themselves on the back for "doing something".

If we really want to fix this issue the ONLY way we can do it is if people in the community are willing to actually care enough to get involved. It's not a money problem. It's not a politics problem. It's a people problem and people need to face up to that fact.
 
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