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Midterm Migraines for the Democrats

MrWonka said:
HAHAHAHA!!!! Who won the majority of votes in the 2012 presidential election? Democrats controlled the Senate through 2014. A Democrat even won the majority of votes in the 2016 Presidential election. Republicans essentially had one good year 2010. Unfortunately that year just happened to coincide with the census. That allowed them to gerrymander the house. In 2012 more Americans voted for Democrats in the House of Representatives than Republicans, but thanks to gerrymandering Republicans still retained control of it.

So no, the people do not like you...not.one.bit. In 2020 there's another census, and you're boy Trump is likely going to hand a landslide of votes to Democrats. Once the maps are redrawn Republicans are unlikely to have wiff of th house for the next decade.
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Republicans have been in control of Congress since 2015. Since that time, Obama was the Obstructionist.
 
Surrealistik said:
Evidently the public which isn't aware of a cohesive, coherent platform Democrats are actively campaigning on and advocating (no doubt due to the near solitary focus on Trump), and Dem leadership per a Senate aide which according to him claims to be 'acutely aware of this problem'..
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Perhaps that's "the public's" excuse, what's yours? You don't know which side things like the Medicaid expansion, DACA, net neutrality, and the Clinton/Obama tax rates came from?

When I see someone claim the Democrats have no concrete policies and then reel off a bunch of concrete Democratic policies (implicitly and falsely claiming those aren't Dem policies), I get a little sense of where some of the disinformation that might be confusing "the public" is coming from.
 
Greenbeard said:
Perhaps that's "the public's" excuse, what's yours? You don't know which side things like the Medicaid expansion, DACA, net neutrality, and the Clinton/Obama tax rates came from?

When I see someone claim the Democrats have no concrete policies and then reel off a bunch of concrete Democratic policies (implicitly and falsely claiming those aren't Dem policies), I get a little sense of where some of the disinformation that might be confusing "the public" is coming from.
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Apparently you've entirely missed the point of what I've been saying: whether or not these are Democratic policies, they have not been pushed or promoted as such, hence the public's ignorance and the general perception that we either don't support these things, or at best just aren't all that interested. When we should be spending time effectively popularizing the bedrock platform and building momentum on issues that clearly matter and are popular with a broad majority to supermajority of people in order to maximize our success on the downballot races, we have failed utterly to do so, hence this belief that Democrats stand for nothing but being opposed to Trump, and an evident awareness among leadership that this is a problem.
 
Surrealistik said:
Apparently you've entirely missed the point of what I've been saying: whether or not these are Democratic policies, they have not been pushed or promoted as such, hence the public's ignorance and the general perception that we either don't support these things, or at best just aren't all that interested. When we should be spending time effectively popularizing the bedrock platform and building momentum on issues that clearly matter and are popular with a broad majority to supermajority of people in order to maximize our success on the downballot races, we have failed utterly to do so, hence this belief that Democrats stand for nothing but being opposed to Trump, and an evident awareness among leadership that this is a problem.
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"We" have failed to do so? You said the Dems have no concrete policies. Then listed a bunch of recent concrete Dem policy successes as if you'd imagined them out of thin air, with no attribution or correction to your previous BS assertion. Now you're blaming your own false assertion on a "general perception."

Perhaps people like you are the problem. If "we" spent more time refuting false assertions about Dem policy priorities instead of repeating them as if they were factual, we'd be in better shape in the general perception department.
 
Greenbeard said:
"We" have failed to do so? You said the Dems have no concrete policies. Then listed a bunch of recent concrete Dem policy successes as if you'd imagined them out of thin air, with no attribution or correction to your previous BS assertion. Now you're blaming your own false assertion on a "general perception."

Perhaps people like you are the problem. If "we" spent more time refuting false assertions about Dem policy priorities instead of repeating them as if they were factual, we'd be in better shape in the general perception department.
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Yes, we have failed to make those policies plain and conspicuous, much as your pitiful attempt to disassociate me from the party is noted. My point is and has always been that there is a failure in the party to campaign on a clear, concrete, conspicuous message and policy platform; others in this thread, including people who are unambiguously Democrat or pro-Democrat, have noted and all but admitted this, in some cases trying to play it off as some kind of strategic and conscious decision rather than a failure or misstep. Holding values, or believing in a point of policy != successfully communicating them.

As repeatedly stated, that failure to communicate is clearly evident per our own research and admissions.

What is so difficult to understand about this? These allegations of failure have factual basis and merit, because we can clearly see that is what people believe. If Democrats were effective at building momentum, championing their agenda, and getting the word out, those focus groups would understand the party stands for more than opposing Trump, and Dem leadership certainly wouldn't admit awareness about the 'problem' of the Dem agenda's obscurity, because it wouldn't be one.
 
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Surrealistik said:
As repeatedly stated, that failure to communicate is clearly evident per our own research and admissions.

What is so difficult to understand about this? These allegations of failure have factual basis and merit, because we can clearly see that is what people believe. If Democrats were effective at building momentum, championing their agenda, and getting the word out, those focus groups would understand the party stands for more than opposing Trump, and Dem leadership certainly wouldn't admit awareness about the 'problem' of the Dem agenda's obscurity, because it wouldn't be one.
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So just to be clear, the reason you said this:

Surrealistik said:
It's not simply that there's no concrete policies for Democrats to point to, it's that there's nothing; there's not even really an outline or silhouette.
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...is that the Democrats didn't adequately communicate to you that the Medicaid expansion, net neutrality, DACA/the Dream Act, and so on are things they passed/implemented and have championed for the past decade?

If so, so be it, I've overestimated you. Because to me it looks to me like they suffer from "allies" who intentionally muddy the waters about what they've done and what they stand for. But if you, someone who apparently spends recreational time following politics, are under the impression those policies just fell from the sky and legitimately don't know that the Democrats are the ones who've been driving them, then I suppose we do indeed have a serious communications problem.
 
Surrealistik said:


Referenced Article: https://www.axios.com/midterm-migra...813-bff84c4c-4e3c-4f46-a63b-84db98847614.html



With the utter failure to defend DACA, and in general do much substantive at pushing back against the Republicans (the usual empty platitudes and soundbites don't count), this doesn't surprise me at all.

Democrats need to understand, now more than ever, in the wake of Clinton's loss and their own research as above, that nothing is guaranteed and the unpopularity of Trump and the Republicans do not by any means equate to an automatic win; instead of coasting almost exclusively on Russiagate and the public's enmity towards Don, they need to set an agenda that coincides with the wants and needs of the American public over party donors, and cannot simply be a monotone obsession with identity politics or immigration.
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The Dems are weak and focus all their energy on politically correct issues.
 
Greenbeard said:
So just to be clear, the reason you said this:

...is that the Democrats didn't adequately communicate to you that the Medicaid expansion, net neutrality, DACA/the Dream Act, and so on are things they passed/implemented and have championed for the past decade?

If so, so be it, I've overestimated you. Because to me it looks to me like they suffer from "allies" who intentionally muddy the waters about what they've done and what they stand for. But if you, someone who apparently spends recreational time following politics, are under the impression those policies just fell from the sky and legitimately don't know that the Democrats are the ones who've been driving them, then I suppose we do indeed have a serious communications problem.
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No, it's because they have not effectively communicated their support for those things to the general public during the run up to the November downballots which they absolutely should.

Perhaps my wording in that specific passage you quoted may be a little ambiguous as to what was exactly meant, though the rest of my posts cumulatively demonstrate what I was saying with clarity: that the party has simply not been effective at championing, defining and communicating policy and building momentum on key and popular issues with respect to the general public, presumably in favour of a near exclusive focus on Trump bashing, and this failure to do so is to its political risk and detriment.

I know that Dems have favourable positions on many issues, and it is gravely unfortunate that they seem to have been relegated to relative obscurity in favour of other things that are much less relevant to the average voter.
 
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Your strangling on 'alt-right' will make your nightmare of "an alt-Right trifecta in all three branches of government" come to complete fruition. The problem is that it wasn't 'alt-right' that got you libs/'progressives' beaten so badly. I personally know of no 'alt-right' citizens, but I know MANY who said a resounding NO to more Obama and NO to ANY Hillary and Bernie. They were the voters that sank the Democrat rowboat.
 
What Dems can't seem to understand is that 75% of the country is rolling its eyes every time they hear "Russia".
 
Moderate Right said:
Republicans have been in control of Congress since 2015. Since that time, Obama was the Obstructionist.
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Funny how that tracks with the moment that jobs started to recover, eh? It's almost as if the business community was glad to see Obama's policies put in check...
 
Erod said:
What Dems can't seem to understand is that 75% of the country is rolling its eyes every time they hear "Russia".
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Well, even SNL has bailed on the Russia narrative at this point, so it will be interesting to see how long the true believers can hold on to this conspiracy theory. Within the year the Russian collusion threads will start moving to the Conspiracy sub forum. :lamo
 
jmotivator said:
Well, even SNL has bailed on the Russia narrative at this point, so it will be interesting to see how long the true believers can hold on to this conspiracy theory. Within the year the Russian collusion threads will start moving to the Conspiracy sub forum. :lamo
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Can you imagine how the documentaries will paint today's media 30 years from now?

"When Journalism Committed Suicide"
 
Greenbeard said:
...is that the Democrats didn't adequately communicate to you that the Medicaid expansion, net neutrality, DACA/the Dream Act, and so on are things they passed/implemented and have championed for the past decade?
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It's always a messaging problem with Democrats when they lose. :roll:

The problem that the Democrats are facing is that they have run out of actual immediate problems to flog, and now exist entirely on fear-mongering potential future problems. The average voter no longer experiences the problems for which the Democrats are selling solutions. Many have felt the bite of Democrat solutions more than have benefited from them. The trouble there, especially in the Presidential elections, is that Trump's policies have benefited blue collar families immediately and directly, and no amount of "messaging" can convince them to see something other than that reality.
 
Erod said:
Can you imagine how the documentaries will paint today's media 30 years from now?

"When Journalism Committed Suicide"
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We'll see. Many progressive news outlets have become the darlings on billionaire financiers, so they won't die, but it remains to be seen whether money can buy readership.
 
Surrealistik said:


Referenced Article: https://www.axios.com/midterm-migra...813-bff84c4c-4e3c-4f46-a63b-84db98847614.html



With the utter failure to defend DACA, and in general do much substantive at pushing back against the Republicans (the usual empty platitudes and soundbites don't count), this doesn't surprise me at all.

Democrats need to understand, now more than ever, in the wake of Clinton's loss and their own research as above, that nothing is guaranteed and the unpopularity of Trump and the Republicans do not by any means equate to an automatic win; instead of coasting almost exclusively on Russiagate and the public's enmity towards Don, they need to set an agenda that coincides with the wants and needs of the American public over party donors, and cannot simply be a monotone obsession with identity politics or immigration.
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At some level it just doesn't matter. The power broker's in the Democratic party are no longer the Democratic party operatives. The DNC is hurting for money, the DCCC is hurting for money outside of a few billionaire's contributions, and the energy and fervor against Trump has gone almost entirely not to their causes. It's gone to largely to individual Democratic candidates and to parallel, non-DC-based groups like MoveOn.org, Our Revolution, Justice Democrats, etc for the Left and then to news groups and moderate Democratic groups (e.g. ThinkProgress) on the center-Left/center-Right. But the traditional Democratic party apparatus and their influence over elections? It will be minimal. The Democratic party got off scot free in 2016 and 2017, but 2018 looks like it'll be their time to pay.

So the fact that the Democratic party operatives are hated isn't necessarily telling anyone anything about how the midterms will proceed.
 
jmotivator said:
It's always a messaging problem with Democrats when they lose. :roll:

The problem that the Democrats are facing is that they have run out of actual immediate problems to flog, and now exist entirely on fear-mongering potential future problems. The average voter no longer experiences the problems for which the Democrats are selling solutions. Many have felt the bite of Democrat solutions more than have benefited from them. The trouble there, especially in the Presidential elections, is that Trump's policies have benefited blue collar families immediately and directly, and no amount of "messaging" can convince them to see something other than that reality.
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There are _plenty_ of problems left to flog, many of which Trump and his adjuncts have newly created, but I agree that Dems, to their disservice, have been almost exclusively focused on Trump via Russia, Stormy Daniels and other factors that most people increasingly don't give a **** about, rather than drafting and communicating policy about said problems. There is clearly a problem with messaging if the party's own focus groups not only can't seem to identify its agenda, but outright assert it lacks one.

As to Trump's policies, if they were truly so beneficial to so many, his approval ratings and that of the Republican party more broadly wouldn't be gargling water at Atlantian depths. To be fair, the Dems aren't much better off; people are simply sick of a broken, bought government that doesn't deliver the solutions they want.

FieldTheorist said:
At some level it just doesn't matter. The power broker's in the Democratic party are no longer the Democratic party operatives. The DNC is hurting for money, the DCCC is hurting for money outside of a few billionaire's contributions, and the energy and fervor against Trump has gone almost entirely not to their causes. It's gone to largely to individual Democratic candidates and to parallel, non-DC-based groups like MoveOn.org, Our Revolution, Justice Democrats, etc for the Left and then to news groups and moderate Democratic groups (e.g. ThinkProgress) on the center-Left/center-Right. But the traditional Democratic party apparatus and their influence over elections? It will be minimal. The Democratic party got off scot free in 2016 and 2017, but 2018 looks like it'll be their time to pay.

So the fact that the Democratic party operatives are hated isn't necessarily telling anyone anything about how the midterms will proceed.
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Absolutely. My point is more that the party and many of its adjuncts are leaving money on the table and failing to maximize their odds of midterm success by focusing singly on outing Trump and related stories/narratives over policies that people actually and broadly support.
 
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jmotivator said:
We'll see. Many progressive news outlets have become the darlings on billionaire financiers, so they won't die, but it remains to be seen whether money can buy readership.
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We now have a media that has literally no credibility. Nobody believes anything they report. It is dead, no matter how much money billionaires float its way.

CNN has attacked Trump 24/7 since the day he won. Every day, without pause.

People see this. They watch it like a variety show these days, and they tune out everything said as fiction to entertain. Nothing more.
 
Erod said:
We now have a media that has literally no credibility. Nobody believes anything they report. It is dead, no matter how much money billionaires float its way.

CNN has attacked Trump 24/7 since the day he won. Every day, without pause.

People see this. They watch it like a variety show these days, and they tune out everything said as fiction to entertain. Nothing more.
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Yes.....Does anybody believe those idiots at Fox?...No credibility hardly covers it
 
Surrealistik said:
It's not simply that there's no concrete policies for Democrats to point to, it's that there's nothing; there's not even really an outline or silhouette.

Further, Trump bashing and Russiagate are honest to god being adopted as the cornerstone or solitary focus of many Dem platforms/strategies which is a proven failure.

It's simply not enough for the other guy to be bad; you must also have something to offer. The sooner Dems collectively learn this, the better.
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I think that is a historically accurate assessment but the current reality that it no longer applies is evident by who is currently sitting in the White House. Being anti Obama, anti Clinton, and Anti Establishment was sufficient for the GOP. There is no reason to assume Dems need anymore clear an agenda when we can see how Trump has campaigned and governed.
 
CriticalThought said:
I think that is a historically accurate assessment but the current reality that it no longer applies is evident by who is currently sitting in the White House. Being anti Obama, anti Clinton, and Anti Establishment was sufficient for the GOP. There is no reason to assume Dems need anymore clear an agenda when we can see how Trump has campaigned and governed.
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They did run on repealing Obamacare and tax cuts; Trump's platform also featured promises about bringing manufacturing back and getting tough on China which was probably instrumental in flipping the key blue wall/rust belt states, and currying support in other similar areas even if he didn't ultimately deliver.

Again, I'm not saying that an anti-Trump stance should be wholly abandoned, I'm saying that Democrats can come away with far greater success in the downballot and beyond if they also communicate a platform with popular solutions and policy on popular issues.
 
Another special election in a Trump + 20 district goes to Democrats. Yeah, we're soooo worried about midterms ;)
 
Saladin4 said:
Yes.....Does anybody believe those idiots at Fox?...No credibility hardly covers it
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You don't seem to realize that you are making Erod's point. The same reason not to blindly trust Fox is the reason you shouldn't trust WaPo, CNN, etc. Just because they say what you want to hear doesn't make them credible, and everyone, regardless of their political persuasion, should understand that. This is also why you can't trust stories just because they appear to have been corroborated by multiple news sources when the news sources use "anonymous officials". If all reports use the same source then they don't actually corroborate the claim.
 
After last nights victory with a swing of 20% its not the Dems with a headache. Roll on Nov 2018 !!
 
Surrealistik said:
They did run on repealing Obamacare and tax cuts; Trump's platform also featured promises about bringing manufacturing back and getting tough on China which was probably instrumental in flipping the key blue wall/rust belt states, and currying support in other similar areas even if he didn't ultimately deliver.

Again, I'm not saying that an anti-Trump stance should be wholly abandoned, I'm saying that Democrats can come away with far greater success in the downballot and beyond if they also communicate a platform with popular solutions and policy on popular issues.
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Tough. There is not a uniting policy position in the left wing like the Nationalist sentiment that Trump exploited in the GOP base. A good 8 years of Obama has created complacency in that coalition. You would need to find something that inspires passion in both the Bernie Sanders Democrat and the pro Globalism Democrat. Some Sanders voters even jumped tickets and voted for Trump. The few areas they have solid agreement also threaten to drive right wingers to the ballots.

I think what few have caught on to with these special elections is a winning strategy on policy. The national Democrats are, for the most part, staying the hell out of it. They are letting candidates run at the local level on local issues. The GOP are the ones trying to drag them into the national arena. I think the national Democrats may do best staying behind the scenes.
 
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