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Devin Nunes's Next Target

sangha said:
.Umm, there was no violation of the 4th Amendment. Are you sure you know what the 4th says?

Just in case
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What "probable cause" was there? Merely being approached by a Russian spy isn't probable cause to spy on you ESPECIALLY if you don't even know that the guy is a spy.
 
Lutherf said:
FISA exists to catch terrorists and those who commit crimes against the nation. It should NEVER be used for political purposes and unless someone can show evidence of a criminal act by Page it should NEVER have been used against him to spy on the Trump campaign or the Trump presidency. Whether you like the guy or not he's still entitled to the protections of the Constitution.
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Where do you get this nonsense from? Mueller's investigation is the opposite of political. The crimes they have already found are not partisan, they are crimes, and they involve foreign contacts.

In contrast to your ignorant position, the FBI and the FISA court, which was established specifically to provide oversight, and the Republicans who just re-approved the FISA standards, and the Republicans who are the vast majority of the FISA court (80%), believe they are doing their jobs appropriately, and are indeed investigating Russian interference in the U.S. election, and crimes that may have been committed in relation to that.
 
Lutherf said:
FISA exists to catch terrorists and those who commit crimes against the nation. It should NEVER be used for political purposes and unless someone can show evidence of a criminal act by Page it should NEVER have been used against him to spy on the Trump campaign or the Trump presidency. Whether you like the guy or not he's still entitled to the protections of the Constitution.
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Wrong.

FISA exists to establish procedures for surveillance by the US govt for the purpose of collection of information concerning Foriegn Intelligence

What did you think the F and I in FISA stands for? Freakin Islamics?
 
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Lutherf said:
What "probable cause" was there? Merely being approached by a Russian spy isn't probable cause to spy on you ESPECIALLY if you don't even know that the guy is a spy.
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probable cause that surveillance would produce evidence of what russian spies were doing to interfere with our elections

After all, that is what this is all about, and you do not even seem to have a clue about that.
 
Mach said:
Where do you get this nonsense from? Mueller's investigation is the opposite of political. The crimes they have already found are not partisan, they are crimes, and they involve foreign contacts.

In contrast to your ignorant position, the FBI and the FISA court, which was established specifically to provide oversight, and the Republicans who just re-approved the FISA standards, and the Republicans who are the vast majority of the FISA court (80%), believe they are doing their jobs appropriately, and are indeed investigating Russian interference in the U.S. election, and crimes that may have been committed in relation to that.
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My "ignorant" position? Are you not aware that the application for the Page FISA warrant and the Mueller investigation are two separate issues?
 
sangha said:
probable cause that surveillance would produce evidence of what russian spies were doing to interfere with our elections

After all, that is what this is all about, and you do not even seem to have a clue about that.
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What probable cause was there that Page was meeting with Russians to interfere with the elections? Again, simply meeting a Russian is not probable cause of illegal activity.
 
Lutherf said:
What probable cause was there that Page was meeting with Russians to interfere with the elections? Again, simply meeting a Russian is not probable cause of illegal activity.
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Pages intentions are irrelevant. All that is required is to show probable cause that surveillance will produce evidence
 
Lutherf said:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/nunes-dossier-deux/552389/





The question seems to be whether (or how much) the State Department facilitated the production of Steele's dossier. What it's looking like is that Sid Blumenthal and Cody Shearer were integral parts of the data collection process. If that's the case then Hillary's finger prints are all over this dossier like it was a Rose Law firm memo.
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No, the correct question is, "Why is anybody still taking Devin Nunes seriously?"
 
Lutherf said:
My "ignorant" position? Are you not aware that the application for the Page FISA warrant and the Mueller investigation are two separate issues?
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Oh lordy, Page hit the radar of the FBI/CIA years before he worked for Trump, because he was rubbing up against the Russian intelligence apparatus, was clearly of the personality and in a career that was ripe for espionage/blackmail/corruption. He lived in Moscow for years.

That they got a FISA warrant to investigate Page seems like obvious is obvious.
 
Lutherf said:
No. The accuracy of the dossier would be important if it was being used for a criminal prosecution. That, however, isn't the case. The dossier is being used as an excuse to spy on Carter Page and, through Page, the rest of the Trump campaign and administration. That's why it's important to know whose fingerprints are all over it.
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And that’s exactly what the conservative media and republicans want you to believe and congratulations, you do. The problem is the warrant for page was from October 2016 a month after he left the campaign. The investigation into trump’s campaign was started July 2016 because of Papadopoulos. You can read that in the memo.

So what you’ve posted is demonstrably false. So what are you going to do? Realize that what you believe is false or simply look for another reason to cling to a false conservative narrative?
 
When Mueller releases a report showing there's dirt on Trump's crew, and he will, there's going to be an awful lot of people arguing for Trump that find themselves on the wrong side of history.
 
Chomsky said:
When Mueller releases a report showing there's dirt on Trump's crew, and he will, there's going to be an awful lot of people arguing for Trump that find themselves on the wrong side of history.
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They will simply dive even deeper into the Denial River. Count on it and you could list then names here who will compete to the first to the bottom.
 
This is what Page did, while as a senior member of the campaign:

Washington (CNN)Former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser Carter Page struggled to explain Tuesday how he could be an informal adviser to the Kremlin and also advise an American presidential campaign.

Last week, Time magazine reported that Page bragged about being an informal adviser to the Kremlin in a 2013 letter to an editor reviewing his manuscript submitted for publication.

ABC's "Good Morning America" anchor George Stephanopoulos pressed Page on the two roles as part of why law enforcement may have targeted him for surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. A controversial Republican intelligence memo released last week highlighted that Page had been targeted.

"You can understand how that would raise questions and could lead to probable cause," Stephanopoulos said. "On the one hand, at one point you say you're an adviser to the Kremlin. Then you're an adviser to Donald Trump."
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Page, who told the Senate intelligence committee in May he had "brief interactions" with low-level Russian officials in 2013, traveled to Moscow in July 2016, shortly after Papadopoulos forwarded a request from Russian officials to meet with Trump or someone in the Trump campaign. Page denied that the Russia trip was in his capacity as a campaign adviser.
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Source: CNN: Carter Page struggles to explain how he could advise both Kremlin and Trump team

And the FBI found the Russians he met with, were high-level Kremlin agents!

Why is anyone trying to defend this guy?
 
Lutherf said:
Yep. Purely patriotic motives and sheer happenstance that so much of this information is coming from close Clinton associates.
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Yep. Purely patriotic motives and sheer happenstance that so many who have extremely close ties to Trump are turning protected witness or indicted. Flynn, Papadopahhhhh can't remember his name now.

Page was under investigation before any mention of a dossier.

Little Trumps having meetings with Russians and the reason flip flops from orphans to Hillary dirt. Trump writes the little trump response and then denies he had anything to do with it.

Jefferson Sessions 'suddenly' remembers meetings he swore never happened.(after being shown photographic proof) Nunes, goes from part of the Trump transmission team to investigating the investigators of the transition team from his Chairmanship in Congress.... :doh

Now I'd not go too cray cray with the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon on this one. I see Nunes' next distraction more an associate of Kerry (who I'd call a political rival of Hillary not a close associate. When it comes to the reporters (and their ilk) I'd say you have the cart before the horse. Seems the reporters were targeted by the Russian hackers and drawn into this with their own Russian injury. The information comes from 'close Clinton associates' mainly because the Russians drew them in not because they went out looking for smoking guns.

But hey 'alternate facts' are part and parcel of the Trump propaganda machine... :peace
 
Chomsky said:
When Mueller releases a report showing there's dirt on Trump's crew, and he will, there's going to be an awful lot of people arguing for Trump that find themselves on the wrong side of history.
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My guess is that what will ultimately be revealed is insider knowledge of Russia interfering in the election. In particular, there was an effort by many to get what they believed were Clinton's lost emails form the Kremlin, so they could be used in an October surprise.

And Trump was 'in' on the effort.
 
Chomsky said:
This is what Page did, while as a senior member of the campaign:





Source: CNN: Carter Page struggles to explain how he could advise both Kremlin and Trump team

And the FBI found the Russians he met with, were high-level Kremlin agents!

Why is anyone trying to defend this guy?
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That Carter Page is a hill Republicans want to die on is absolutely mind boggling to me. It reminds me of that scene from Casino where Joe Pesci just successfully tortured another gangster into giving up a name, and he screams, "Charlie M? You make me pop your ****in' eye outta your head...to protect that piece of ****, Charlie M? You dumb mother****er!"

 
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Lutherf said:
The fact that the original matter was resolved doggone well SHOULD factor into it.
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Page lived in Moscow from 2004-2007. He attracted someone's attention. After meetings with Russian spymaster Victor Podobnyy in 2013, Page kept meeting with Putin 'associates' ... like Roseneft CEO Igor Sechin.

Page also gave an anti-American lecture in Moscow in July 2016. Even after he resigned form the Trump campaign in September 2016, Page kept meeting with Putin regime-friendly Russian oligarchs.
 
Cardinal said:
That Carter Page is a hill Republicans want to die on is absolutely mind boggling to me. It reminds me of that scene from Casino where Joe Pesci just successfully tortured another gangster into giving up a name, and he screams, "Charlie M? You make me pop your ****in' eye outta your head...to protect that piece of ****, Charlie M? You dumb mother****er!
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Because:

1] Desperation. Just like us, they suspect Trump & his crew are dirty.

2] They are trying to make a "fruit of the poisoned tree" argument, in order to dismiss the entire investigation carte blanche.

(the investigation seems to be far too fruitful, to categorically refute!)
 
sangha said:
Pages intentions are irrelevant. All that is required is to show probable cause that surveillance will produce evidence
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One could also point out that the vast majority of warrants sought in ordinary criminal cases rely very heavily on a biased confidential informant. The informant may be working with police to make charges against himself go away, or he might have been threatened by the target of the warrant in some way, or maybe he even just wants to do something like fight drug dealing in the neighborhood. They're all biased.

To the extent bias is known, a judge considers it. The judge doesn't say "well, this informant might be biased so, application for warrant denied".





This whole fuss about FISA is where we are in terms of today's dishonest political maneuvering.
 
Fenton said:
Here's a link to Gassley's memo. I suggest you inform yourself
https://www.scribd.com/document/370918981/2018-02-06-CEG-LG-to-DOJ-FBI-Unclassified-Steele-Referral
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The link shows more of the same partisan initiative and a distraction that the Nunes memo showed. Im sure that you are gobbling it up. Me not so much.

What neither memo does is call Page innocent or wrongfully surveilled. What the game is here is to claim that this is all a fabrication by democrats and the Clinton campaign. Or at least to get Americans to believe that. And I am sure that people like you fully believe what Trump and his lawyers are telling you. Why not wait a bit before you get all tangled up in this? If the democrats are guilty then the evidence will show that. Just like Trump if he is guilty the evidence will show that. ANd if anyone is innocent then the evidence will show that too. Of course they can all be guilty, did you ever think of that? What if the democrats did do some very corrupted crap, and so did Trump? I mean we are talking about politicians, they are most likely guilty of something all of them including trump.
 
Chomsky said:
Because:

1] Desperation. Just like us, they suspect Trump & his crew are dirty.

2] They are trying to make a "fruit of the poisoned tree" argument, in order to dismiss the entire investigation carte blanche.

(the investigation seems to be far too fruitful, to categorically refute!)
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As to #2, there are quite a few exceptions to the fruits doctrine that they don't seem to have taken account of yet. Since the Warren years, the right-leaning Court carved every last hole you can imagine in the 4th.
 
lutherf said:
No. The accuracy of the dossier would be important if it was being used for a criminal prosecution.
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You mean investigation? Accurate evidence developed by investigation always precedes prosecution, at least where Rule of Law prevails.



lutherf said:
That, however, isn't the case. The dossier is being used as an excuse to spy on Carter Page and, through Page, the rest of the Trump campaign and administration. That's why it's important to know whose fingerprints are all over it.
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The dossier is being used as evidence that the Trump administration needs to be investigated, and It does not matter if the opposition was involved in providing the evidence, especially if it helps us get to the bottom of this mess of historical proportion.

Furthermore:

The Page-Russia connection has been on FBI radar for years. See link: The Nunes Memo: 12 Things to Know

Even if the Steele dossier did not exist The FBI would have reason to spy on Page.


Furthermore:

It is probably a good bet that the Trump-Russia connection has been on FBI radar even longer: See link: Trump-Russia Timeline

Even if the Steele dossier did not exist the FBI would have reason to spy on Trump, whose ties to the Russian Communists and Kleptocrats have been ongoing for decades, and who is now known to have been the beneficiary of Russian interference in our 2016 general election.
 
Lutherf said:
As you are likely aware, the 2013 matter involved Page being contacted by Russian agents, not Page seeking out Russian agents. Page also cooperated with the FBI to resolve that matter. It should have been a done deal at that point except that, it seems, folks at the FBI opted to use that as a reason to tag Page again.
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Tell me, what was Carter Page doing in 2016?
 
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