• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

White House Official Floated Withdrawing U.S. Forces to Please Putin - The Daily Beast today

Tangmo said:
Had you made the post to Trump he would have demanded pictures instead. But only some. And maybe a video in the spastic MTV quickie flash format with lotsa women.

Zing you also missed my point about the U.S. Constitution and Russia's 1000 years of Czars. The mention zeros in on the Russian long term culture of dictatorship and land seizures of other countries that the USA does not have. Indeed, Russians learned to suffer over a millenium of Czars so they're survivalists and proud of it, demanding ever more suffering to show they can take it. Y'know, like how Russians love Putin and the sanctions that knocked back GDP and hit so many items in Russian life to include the elites who have since become ever more grabby. So yes, it is incongruous for American Conservatives and other Republicans to want life in the USA to be more like life in Russia rather than the other way around.

Over 1000 years of Czarist expansion Russia has always been the Big Dog on the Block -- every block from the Baltic and Black Sea to the Urals and out to the Pacific. Which is why the Crimean War alliance against Russia which in 1853 took on the Ottoman Empire too stopped Russia trying to seize Constantinople and expand into the Med. If Russia had its way back then it might well control the Med to include the present. Putin is fighting in Syria to protect his one miserable naval port, create a second one and to preserve, protect, defend yet another miserable fellow dictator Assad.

Many of the former Soviet Republics applied to EU and sought successfully Nato membership because Russia is the Big Dog of their history. We know Nato is not going to invade Russia. Russia knows and the world knows no one post WW II is going to invade or attack Russia. Rather, Russia the Motherwhatever is inherently expansionist and Putin the KGB-Czarist is both irredentist and revanchist. Putin is a Make Eternal Russia Great Again nationalist. Same as the Chinese are irredentist and revanchist to Make China Great Again. Same as Mussolini and Hitler were all of the above.
Click to expand...

Ummmmmmmmmm - No

There was the Tsardom of Russia (1547–1721) and Imperial Russia (1721–1917).... Some 470 years.

So, 370 years of Czars.

As far as expansion? 1533-1896

Russia_1533-1896.jpg

The map does not note invasions that took Russian territory.
 
Last edited:
There are always people who need a concrete contact with geostrategic realities....


Why China will “reclaim” Siberia

China Daily

China has made no secret that it will one day enforce its claims on much of Eastern Russia, which it sees as rightfully belonging to China. With Russia fast becoming the weaker partner in the alliance formed after the west imposed sanctions, just how would China legitimise their claim, and how much territory would they “take back?”

The border, all 2,738 miles of it, is the legacy of the Convention of Peking of 1860 and other unequal pacts between a strong, expanding Russia and a weakened China after the Second Opium War.

The 1.35 billion Chinese people south of the border outnumber Russia’s 144 million almost 10 to 1. The discrepancy is even starker for Siberia on its own, home to barely 38 million people, and especially the border area, where only 6 million Russians face over 90 million Chinese. With intermarriage, trade and investment across that border, Siberians have realized that, for better or for worse, Beijing is a lot closer than Moscow.

The vast expanses of Siberia would provide not just room for China’s huddled masses, now squeezed into the coastal half of their country by the mountains and deserts of western China. The land is already providing China, “the factory of the world,” with much of its raw materials, especially oil, gas and timber. Increasingly, Chinese-owned factories in Siberia churn out finished goods, as if the region already were a part of the Middle Kingdom’s economy.

Beijing could use Russia’s own strategy: hand out passports to sympathisers in contested areas, then move in militarily to “protect its citizens.” The Kremlin has tried that in Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and most recently the Crimea, all formally part of other post-Soviet states, but controlled by Moscow. And if Beijing chose to take Siberia by force, the only way Moscow could stop China would be using nuclear weapons.

https://chinadailymail.com/2014/07/05/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia/





China Moves Nuclear Missiles to Russian Border

Jan 24, 2017

5887159bc361887f308b4594.jpg

DF-41 nuclear solid-fueled road-mobile intercontinental ballistic missile on Daqing Highway Bridge West of Heilongjiang province January 3, 2017. The province borders Russia at the Pacific.


China has deployed Dongfeng-41 nuclear Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles to the Heilongjiang province border with Russia, Chinese media has reported.

After photographs and videos of the missiles in transit to the province appeared on the Chinese internet, the Global Times newspaper confirmed the reports Tuesday.

"Based on the information from analysts, the photo was taken in the Heilongjiang province," the newspaper reported.

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/china-moves-nuclear-missiles-to-russian-border-56903


The Chinese are patient but not forever. China needs lebensraum and it needs living space desperately. China needs clean soil, air, water -- space -- for its teeming masses. In Hong Kong I was advised by several Chinese businessmen especially that Siberia belongs to China and that China will regain it. The present China-Russia partnership doesn't have a non aggression pact but it does have its limits. Inherently so given CCP Dictators in Beijing claim more land area outside of China than they have in China (to include the northern third of India...then why not all of India eh).
 
American said:
It means nothing to you. All you're bitching about stuff that happened before Trump, is irrelevant.
Click to expand...


MSgt is talking about conservatives -- right whingers who are never satisfied.

Youse whinge even when you win the election of your messiah Potus.

A gruesome bunch of sore winners over there.
 
American said:
It means nothing to you. All you're bitching about stuff that happened before Trump, is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Oh...but bitching about rolling back anything Obama did before Trump is open season? Seems highly obtuse and hypocritical to me to pretend that everything before Trump is irrelevant. But maybe that is why the lot of you pretend that you never stood for anything before Trump.

Anyways, I'm talking about something real, not somebody's simple infatuation or sad passion for Donald Trump. Fat and unnecessary Defense contracts have not ceased to exist simply because your guy farts in the White House. The Defense system of lobbying Senators, with the help of retiring Generals and Admirals, for economic favor in return for establishing state jobs is not about the military.

And it is extremely simple minded to declare to the tax payers that there is not enough money for "military" or southern border security, directly after enthusiastically cheering for a tax-cut Bill that dramatically reduced government revenue.
 
Last edited:
Tangmo said:
My replies have to manage your posts for you otherwise I have to snip throughout 'em to get in each precious word of mine own.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know. I used to try to argue that the character count of another's post should not count to the reply. But I do have a bad habit of length.

Tangmo said:
American Conservatives have been reacting consistently and forcefully against immigration since the 1960s. That is when LBJ especially and the Democrats of the time -- the Civil Rights Movement -- banged up against the brick wall of racism in the American culture. Four hundred years of it to include a Civil War. The conclusion of the Great Society Democrats of the time was to significantly reduce immigration from white racist Europe. It was concomitantly to open the immigration doors to Central Americans, South Americans and, most recently, East Asians from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan but China in particular. The opening includes SE Asia over to South Asia, i.e., India.

The browning of America predicated in numbers was viewed from the mid 1960s to the election of Trump as the only way to overcome the inherent racism of American culture and society. We weren't ever going to preclude racism, we haven't precluded or neutralized racism, and we aren't going to achieve this imperative goal by changing the substantial number of racist whites and their eternal culture of racism. The Browning of America as it's so often called most recently is the only way to subdue and minimize racism. By numbers of 'em. The rightwhinge in their racialism knows this, is well aware of it, and of course opposes becoming outnumbered by people of color in the US becoming the majority of the population.

Hence the vitriol against the Browning and the people of color or ethnicity other than European being given access to residency, citizenship, voting etc etc. The most horrible myths imaginable are the standard fare of the right as it uses anything and everything to try to reverse what they see as the hordes transiting our borders from the south and the east. The right to include the great majority of Republicans know their domination over the society, culture, lawmaking, judicial rulings etc etc will be subsumed by the Browning of America that began in the mid 1960s forward to the present and beyond. Throw 'em out and shut 'em out is the Trump reply who announced his campaign for the Republican nomination and then sought the presidency on the basis of stopping and reverseing (sharply) the flow of immigration that has been occurring for 50 years and the Browning (as it were) that would otherwise continue. This includes of course a certain minority religion in USA the Right sees as alien to American culture -- Muslims.

There is nothing superficial or glossy about this; it is real and profoundly so over decades of time, events, developments. Conservatives aren't also called reactionaries for nothing.
Click to expand...

Well, no real argument from me. The history is clear on your summary. But the history also shows that Democratic lawmakers were in plenty in on creating the American identity through immigration laws in the late 19th and early 20th century.

But I do think all of this racist garbage has been exacerbated as of late because it has coincided with so much irrationality of other things. Conservatives began to define themselves with so much irrationality that they began to grow bitter. Neo-Con ideals didn't pan out as they imagined. Obama wound up being born in Hawaii. Global Warming turned out to be real. Trickle-Down economics was proven a bust. The GOP's Mitt Romney was a one percenter. And in regards to BLM, Conservatives saw only black/white instead of the actual issue at hand where petrified cops were obviously wrong. And when black NFL players began kneeling, Conservatives legitimized their avoidance of the actual issue by pretending that it was simply about disrespecting their personal nationalism.

So what we have here is a segment of the American population who had constantly found themselves on the other side of rationality, and instead of growing wiser they dug in and grew bitter. They saw their ideologies crash, one after another, in a world that had proven to be beyond those fantasies. And now they reject all reason, lack integrity and consistency, and lash out at everything as if everything but themselves is to blame for where they have arrived.
 
Tangmo said:
My replies have to manage your posts for you otherwise I have to snip throughout 'em to get in each precious word of mine own.


American Conservatives have been reacting consistently and forcefully against immigration since the 1960s. That is when LBJ especially and the Democrats of the time -- the Civil Rights Movement -- banged up against the brick wall of racism in the American culture. Four hundred years of it to include a Civil War. The conclusion of the Great Society Democrats of the time was to significantly reduce immigration from white racist Europe. It was concomitantly to open the immigration doors to Central Americans, South Americans and, most recently, East Asians from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan but China in particular. The opening includes SE Asia over to South Asia, i.e., India.

The browning of America predicated in numbers was viewed from the mid 1960s to the election of Trump as the only way to overcome the inherent racism of American culture and society. We weren't ever going to preclude racism, we haven't precluded or neutralized racism, and we aren't going to achieve this imperative goal by changing the substantial number of racist whites and their eternal culture of racism. The Browning of America as it's so often called most recently is the only way to subdue and minimize racism. By numbers of 'em. The rightwhinge in their racialism knows this, is well aware of it, and of course opposes becoming outnumbered by people of color in the US becoming the majority of the population.

Hence the vitriol against the Browning and the people of color or ethnicity other than European being given access to residency, citizenship, voting etc etc. The most horrible myths imaginable are the standard fare of the right as it uses anything and everything to try to reverse what they see as the hordes transiting our borders from the south and the east. The right to include the great majority of Republicans know their domination over the society, culture, lawmaking, judicial rulings etc etc will be subsumed by the Browning of America that began in the mid 1960s forward to the present and beyond. Throw 'em out and shut 'em out is the Trump reply who announced his campaign for the Republican nomination and then sought the presidency on the basis of stopping and reverseing (sharply) the flow of immigration that has been occurring for 50 years and the Browning (as it were) that would otherwise continue. This includes of course a certain minority religion in USA the Right sees as alien to American culture -- Muslims.

There is nothing superficial or glossy about this; it is real and profoundly so over decades of time, events, developments. Conservatives aren't also called reactionaries for nothing.
Click to expand...

You do realize that immigration from Europe dropped in the 70's because living conditions in western Europe by that time improved dramatically.

I am sure a huge spike occurred with the fall of communism. As it did in Canada regarding ex communist countries. But western Europeans just do not want to move to North America in great numbers. Indians and Chinese do
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
You do realize that immigration from Europe dropped in the 70's because living conditions in western Europe by that time improved dramatically.

I am sure a huge spike occurred with the fall of communism. As it did in Canada regarding ex communist countries. But western Europeans just do not want to move to North America in great numbers. Indians and Chinese do
Click to expand...


USA has controlled its borders old and new very closely since 1789 and highly effectively. We've had what we call waves of immigration from Europe that are enumerated in organic statutory law and which used to be predicated in country quotas. There were regional quotas too: western Europe, northern Europe, southern Europe, eastern Europe-Eurasia and so on.

The waves have always been deliberate and measured, allowing time in between 'em for the newly arrived to begin to assimilate before creating the next wave. While the Irish potato famine blip of immigration is well known, along with other events such as the inflow consequent to the Vietnam War, immigration has been a controlled on and off public policy. The policy has consistently been centered in racist white Europe from whence we ourselves originated in significant numbers. (My entire family lineage is Europe to the USA east coast.)

The long chain of the wave based immigration policy oriented to Europe existed until the LBJ Great Society and the Black Civil Rights Movement. And the political Southern Strategy of Nixon and Sen. Strom Thurmond of SC to transform the Democratic Party Solid South into the Red Republican crop of voters in the perpetual Old Confederacy. Since the LBJ-Nixon timeframe immigration from Europe has been limited to a constant complaint from a number of 'em over there but to no relief. The USA southern border was instead opened to fellow American countries; then the Pacific border was opened to East Asians, SE Asians, South Asians. It's been a steady flow of significant numbers of these migrants primarily over the half century of time. Add most recently Muslims of the world's fastest growing religion (growing, not established in the absolute).

The Right has opposed the immigration flow of the past 50-plus years but only in the present century has the Right gone bananas and ape**** over it, punctuated by their grotesque and divisive racism against the black Potus. Now the Right has their Great White Messiah who is fixed and loudly so on an immediate reversal of the flow from in to out and to stop it cold. Throw up a Wall to close White America to the world of color which is a lot of it. Fact is it's too late which is good. Thank our lucky stars so to speak.
 
MSgt said:
Yeah, I know. I used to try to argue that the character count of another's post should not count to the reply. But I do have a bad habit of length.



Well, no real argument from me. The history is clear on your summary. But the history also shows that Democratic lawmakers were in plenty in on creating the American identity through immigration laws in the late 19th and early 20th century.

But I do think all of this racist garbage has been exacerbated as of late because it has coincided with so much irrationality of other things. Conservatives began to define themselves with so much irrationality that they began to grow bitter. Neo-Con ideals didn't pan out as they imagined. Obama wound up being born in Hawaii. Global Warming turned out to be real. Trickle-Down economics was proven a bust. The GOP's Mitt Romney was a one percenter. And in regards to BLM, Conservatives saw only black/white instead of the actual issue at hand where petrified cops were obviously wrong. And when black NFL players began kneeling, Conservatives legitimized their avoidance of the actual issue by pretending that it was simply about disrespecting their personal nationalism.

So what we have here is a segment of the American population who had constantly found themselves on the other side of rationality, and instead of growing wiser they dug in and grew bitter. They saw their ideologies crash, one after another, in a world that had proven to be beyond those fantasies. And now they reject all reason, lack integrity and consistency, and lash out at everything as if everything but themselves is to blame for where they have arrived.
Click to expand...


Blew us away on that one Top. Shows what can happen when the words and the thoughts get marshaled and deployed in the concentrated application of decisive force. Overran 'em completely you did. Routed 'em. All that's left for this side now is to mop 'em up. End game comes in November of course.
 
Tangmo said:
Blew us away on that one Top. Shows what can happen when the words and the thoughts get marshaled and deployed in the concentrated application of decisive force. Overran 'em completely you did. Routed 'em. All that's left for this side now is to mop 'em up. End game comes in November of course.
Click to expand...

Yeah, November is going to be interesting. I see a pattern.

1) The GOP obnoxiously radicalized its Conservative base against Obama for years; and even managed to turn science and education into a Liberal thing. In the Primaries the GOP discovered that they had completely lost control of the mob that they created. They actually pleaded for Conservatives not to vote for Trump. However, this sad effort followed a much longer and more earnest effort to radicalize their voters. And so the GOP was rewarded with Trump, after Conservatives betrayed everything they used to profess to stand for in order to vote for a silver-spooned, military bashing, mean-spirited, adulterer.

2) Despite most of the GOP being disgusted by Roy Moore, Trump chose to endorse him. At least he wasn't a hypocrite. He chose politics rather than face his own sexual misconduct issues in Moore. Trump's club of radicals fell in line and defended Moore's depravity, and by extension, defended Trump once again for his. And, of course, Moore showcased his support for Trump in the hopes that the faithful would simply fall in line for him too. In time, some GOP members flipped and decided to hypocritically support Moore after all. But Moore had two big things against him when it came to expecting all Republicans to obey the game. Doug Jones was not Hillary Clinton; and the Alabama election followed a year's worth of Trump's bad behavior.


I think Alabama was an indicator. Jones won that election because of a backlash. The election results showed that Moore lost a number of precincts that are populated with educated whites. Many of these either abstained by writing in a third candidate or simply gave their votes to Jones. But either way, they chose their morality over their blind allegiance. That is a good sign for Conservatives who actually care about what their base looks like anymore. Even Mitt Romney verbally acknowledged that had he won the Republican Primaries he would have destroyed Hillary Clinton in the General. And he is right. And I think Trump and the GOP knows it, which is why they are trying to do as much as they can now before the buffoon party comes to an end in November. And if November is very bad for them, they have to start considering Trump's worth in 2020. I think backing Trump in 2020 will be like gift wrapping the Presidency to the other side because the majority of all the swing votes have already Left.
 
MSgt said:
Oh...but bitching about rolling back anything Obama did before Trump is open season? Seems highly obtuse and hypocritical to me to pretend that everything before Trump is irrelevant. But maybe that is why the lot of you pretend that you never stood for anything before Trump.

Anyways, I'm talking about something real, not somebody's simple infatuation or sad passion for Donald Trump. Fat and unnecessary Defense contracts have not ceased to exist simply because your guy farts in the White House. The Defense system of lobbying Senators, with the help of retiring Generals and Admirals, for economic favor in return for establishing state jobs is not about the military.

And it is extremely simple minded to declare to the tax payers that there is not enough money for "military" or southern border security, directly after enthusiastically cheering for a tax-cut Bill that dramatically reduced government revenue.
Click to expand...

So now even a company like Apple is bringing $350B back to the country.
 
American said:
So now even a company like Apple is bringing $350B back to the country.
Click to expand...

Which has what to do with government revenue?

But you people still can't quite reconcile the fact that corporate America sits on almost $2 trillion of uninvested cash. The amount of withheld money is at a historical high. It is very disingenuous for a company like Apple, which greatly increased it revenue stream by significantly decreasing its expenses though foreign salaries in foreign factories, to declare that it is "bringing back $350B"...because of tax-cuts. Hm....so why not before the tax-cuts? How about all the rest of corporate America that sat on uninvested money before the tax-cut? And where was all this money when Trickle Down was supposed to save the little guy during the Great Recession?

These sorts of declarations are conveniently timed and meant to encourage more and more tax-cuts, which increases the revenue of their stockholders and investors. You know..all those people whose new tax-cuts are not set to expire. They have been playing this game since the late 1980s and Conservatives have largely allowed Republicans (with so very little argument from benefiting Democrats) to get away with it.
 
MSgt said:
Which has what to do with government revenue?

But you people still can't quite reconcile the fact that corporate America sits on almost $2 trillion of uninvested cash. The amount of withheld money is at a historical high. It is very disingenuous for a company like Apple, which greatly increased it revenue stream by significantly decreasing its expenses though foreign salaries in foreign factories, to declare that it is "bringing back $350B"...because of tax-cuts. Hm....so why not before the tax-cuts? How about all the rest of corporate America that sat on uninvested money before the tax-cut? And where was all this money when Trickle Down was supposed to save the little guy during the Great Recession?

These sorts of declarations are conveniently timed and meant to encourage more and more tax-cuts, which increases the revenue of their stockholders and investors. You know..all those people whose new tax-cuts are not set to expire. They have been playing this game since the late 1980s and Conservatives have largely allowed Republicans (with so very little argument from benefiting Democrats) to get away with it.
Click to expand...

So only draconian Democrat tax policies will save us. Just stop okay?
 
American said:
So only draconian Democrat tax policies will save us. Just stop okay?
Click to expand...

"Draconian" is an opinion. I wasn't suffering. I'm sure you weren't. And it is very telling that Conservatives on this site appear to purposefully avoid the pesky points of reality that shatter the failed trickle down ideology simply because they refuse to reconcile their "draconian" socioeconomic ideals with globalization.

Nothing about the $1.9 trillion that corporate America sat on before the tax-cut? Nothing on how politically and economically convenient it is for corporations to praise the tax-cut and "promising" to spend, spend, spend on the American plumber, carpenter, painter, cashier, and small businessman? Nothing on the GOP's need for new money to fund a wall, the military, and seeking to attack medicaid and medicare this year? Nothing on the GOP's new economic policy of passing only monthly budgets for the nation? Nothing on this new official argument to raise taxes on gasoline? Do you see how "new taxes" are already in the works to compensate for the tax-cut handout you just received?

Of course, then there are those new tariffs on Chinese solar panels, which will only result in people paying more for solar panels. And solar panels is just an example of the higher prices for goods in the U.S. that are on the way. Were those tax-cuts meant to compensate for increased prices of imported goods? Hardly, because new taxes are already on the way to do that. Your wallet will look the same (or worse) as it did last year, long before your new tax-cuts expire and double own. Um...and then there are those who's taxes are not set to expire, huh?

The key to improving the U.S. is placing those taxes where they need to go. Republicans have proven for almost two decades that they want the money to go up into corporations and into the pockets of stockholders. This is the entire reason such great uneven disparity and the 1% exists today. And just a few weeks ago you all applauded a massive move to increase this disparity issue simply to play a political game of "winning" versus "losing." And we all should know that as the bottom has less, crime rises. So, hey Conservatives, stop playing politics, open your eyes, and "just stop ok?"
 
Last edited:
DiAnna said:
A very extensive, informative (and truly frightening) article. I hope someone sics Mueller on this Harrison guy.
Click to expand...



But suckers for #fakenews are once again taking "anonymous sources" as legit.


"
A senior National Security Council official proposed withdrawing some U.S. military forces from Eastern Europe as an overture to Vladimir Putin during the early days of the Trump presidency, according to two former administration officials."
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
But suckers for #fakenews are once again taking "anonymous sources" as legit.


"
A senior National Security Council official proposed withdrawing some U.S. military forces from Eastern Europe as an overture to Vladimir Putin during the early days of the Trump presidency, according to two former administration officials."
Click to expand...

What a dumb post.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
How specifically is it dumb? When I call your dumb posts dumb, I will explain why it's dumb. If you are going to "play my game", play it right. :pimpdaddy:.
Click to expand...

I play the game any way I want. Don't know who you are nor do I give a ****.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom