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Thread: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, I know it's tough to defend statues celebrating a Klucker and president of a 'country' dedicated to the idea that slavery is the proper role of blacks, but that IS the actual topic.

    The difference between, say, the Statue of Liberty is the idea of that statue was and is as a symbol of America as a beacon to all people, to freedom. What are you celebrating when you see a monument to a slave trader and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, or the treasonous first 'President' of a "country" whose cornerstone rested on the idea of white supremacy and the expansion of slavery?
    It's very easy to sit back and criticize the actions of the past, for hindsight is 20/20. When we look at history in the context of today it becomes very distorted our values change and hopefully we become better people out of the process. However, to remove the evidence because it offends us as a people doesn't speak well of the people. There isn't a person alive today who was a slave and, lets hope, there will not be anyone born in the future who will be a slave. I see those statues as reminders of the past, of reminders of this blight on American history, to destroy these just means it will be easier to forget, and I ask, should we forget? Generations from now, how will we see this, or even more so, will we even see this? Will this blight be erased from the history books, because it might offend someone and if so, then as with history, we might be doomed to repeat it.
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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    While we are removing "offensive statues" lets remove the Statue of Liberty, which at the time of its donation to the U.S. the U.S. was oppressing Native Americans. Let's remove the Stature of Christopher Columbus from Columbus Circle in NY, a man who took Natives as slaves and brought disease to Turtle Island. Let's remove Mt. Rushmore, this land was taken from the Native Americans and it was a sacred place in the Black Hills. Lets remove all Statues of Andrew Jackson also know as "Indian Killer" and those of Custer. Geez, while we're at it lets not forget the Washington Monument, for he was a slave holder, or the Jefferson Memorial.

    We can go on and on, but, you know, no matter how hard they try and erase history, it's still going to be there.
    Do you think Germany should've kept up the Hitler statues after WWII? Was removing them "erasing history" or was it just refusing to glorify assholes? America has better role models than traitors who waged a war against the US and got their ass handed to them.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, I know it's tough to defend statues celebrating a Klucker and president of a 'country' dedicated to the idea that slavery is the proper role of blacks, but that IS the actual topic.

    The difference between, say, the Statue of Liberty is the idea of that statue was and is as a symbol of America as a beacon to all people, to freedom. What are you celebrating when you see a monument to a slave trader and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, or the treasonous first 'President' of a "country" whose cornerstone rested on the idea of white supremacy and the expansion of slavery?
    Stop trying to show that this or that person (Forrest, Lincoln, Lee, Sherman, whatever) was "racist," because that's a modern
    term that could legitimately be applied to virtually everyone in that era. It's useless as a label for people 150 years ago; Focus
    on what they said and did, and make assessments based on that.

    I'm not that concerned about Jefferson Davis who was an ineffective commander in chief.

    But the key to dealing with Forrest, whatever your perspective or how twisted your conclusions might
    have developed in the past, is to study the records and the actions of the man.
    Give the General a fair look. He could have lived with the score.

    No other soldier in any wars fought by men born of American soil was so praised by both those who
    wrote history, those who fought against him and those who fought on his side.

    1) His greatest adversary William T. Sherman called him “the most
    remarkable man our civil war produced on either side’ & ‘he had a
    strategy which was original & incomprehensible. There was no theory
    or art of war by which I could calculate with any degree of certainty
    what Forrest was up to.’

    2) 'Shelby Foote who wrote the monumental 3-volume Civil War A Narrative:
    Held that there were two authentic geniuses to emerge from the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln & Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    3) 'After his surrender, when asked by a Union Officer who he thought his greatest general was, General Robert E. Lee
    replied, Sir, a gentleman I have never had the pleasure to meet, General Nathan Bedford Forrest.'

    Forrest as a soldier:
    'The Institute for Military Studies concluded that the Battle of Brice's Crossroads (won by Forrest),
    was perhaps the most spectacular display of tactical genius during warfare.'

    Alone with that regal now torn down equestrian statue of Forrest in Memphis these words are inscribed.

    "Those hoof beats die not upon fame's crimson sod,
    But will ring through her song and her story;
    He fought like a Titan and struck like a god,
    And his dust is our ashes of glory."

    Criticism concerning this man being a illiterate redneck, pathological sadist, cruel slaver
    or Grand Wizard of the clan is debatable and something I'd be happy to indulge in!
    Last edited by slick; 12-22-17 at 03:36 PM.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    It's very easy to sit back and criticize the actions of the past, for hindsight is 20/20. When we look at history in the context of today it becomes very distorted our values change and hopefully we become better people out of the process. However, to remove the evidence because it offends us as a people doesn't speak well of the people. There isn't a person alive today who was a slave and, lets hope, there will not be anyone born in the future who will be a slave. I see those statues as reminders of the past, of reminders of this blight on American history, to destroy these just means it will be easier to forget, and I ask, should we forget? Generations from now, how will we see this, or even more so, will we even see this? Will this blight be erased from the history books, because it might offend someone and if so, then as with history, we might be doomed to repeat it.
    I just don't buy that analysis. The monuments were put up by white supremacists, racists, to celebrate the white supremacist and racist history of those men.

    Let's say your grandfather was killed fighting the Nazis in Germany. Do you need a statue of Hitler to remind you of that past? If not, why not? Should Jewish communities in Germany and elsewhere be REQUIRED by their government to maintain monuments celebrating Hitler and the Nazi regime? Why not? Won't the Jews forget about the holocaust without a monument celebrating the perpetrators of the holocaust in their public places?

    And you're from Oregon, but the "history" erased from history books in the South is the actual history of slavery, the reasons for the Civil War (slavery) and the Jim Crow era. Just about as soon as the Civil War ended, an alternative history emerged that is referred to as the Lost Cause narrative, and that narrative tries to replace slavery as the underlying dispute of the Civil War with disputes over economics and "states' rights." It's in that context and the seizure of all levers of power by whites post Civil War, and in the process establishing blacks as second or third class citizens, that these monuments celebrating the cause and continued dominance of white supremacy were erected.

    There is a place for maintaining that history, but it sure as hell does NOT have to be in community parks. That's what museums and Confederate cemeteries are for - as a place to remember history. Public squares and monuments in them are for celebrating people, not maintaining monuments intended to CELEBRATE men the community appropriately views with scorn and derision.

    And besides, whatever our opinion on it, ultimately what monuments go up and stay up in those places is IMO a decision for THAT COMMUNITY to make, and it will appropriately change over time. White supremacists decided to put monuments to famous racists and white supremacists in those places. There cannot be an ethical or societal obligation for ALL FUTURE COMMUNITIES to defer to those decisions decades, or centuries later.
    Last edited by JasperL; 12-22-17 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...tatues/548990/



    Bottom line is Memphis is over 2/3 black and there's no good reason the people of Memphis need to keep monuments to slavers and Kluckers in their public parks. Blacks had no say when these monuments to racists and white supremacists were erected during the Jim Crow era, and the State of Tennessee again removed their voice in deciding to ignore the people of Memphis and rule that Memphis had to keep these monuments in place. I'm glad Memphis found a way to do what they've tried to do by working with the state for years now. The State refused to negotiate in good faith, passing laws further removing the voice of the people in Memphis, and so the city of Memphis found a way to do what the citizens of Memphis demanded. The world is better off with those monuments gone.
    I believe Memphis is 63/64% black. And what removing those statues constitutes is tearing a page out of a history book and pretending it didn't happen. Instead of constructively teaching children/citizens of our whole history and what happened and all issues at stake, it presumes to teach hatred and contempt for a period of history because there were bad things in it. Later on a bust of President Obama might be smashed because of the bad things that happened during his administration or tenure in the public sector.

    If everything/everybody has be be judged on only those less-than-commendable traits about them, we will have to smash the faces off of Mount Rushmore, destroy 99.9% of public buildings, bring down all the monuments and memorials including those dedicated to Dr. Martin Luther King, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Otherwise history is what it is, the good and the bad, the just and the unjust, the commendable and unacceptable. Those statues being removed/destroyed could just as easily be used to symbols to teach accurate history. Those people did not erect their own monuments or markers of their time in history. Historians did.
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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I believe Memphis is 63/64% black. And what removing those statues constitutes is tearing a page out of a history book and pretending it didn't happen. Instead of constructively teaching children/citizens of our whole history and what happened and all issues at stake, it presumes to teach hatred and contempt for a period of history because there were bad things in it. Later on a bust of President Obama might be smashed because of the bad things that happened during his administration or tenure in the public sector.

    If everything/everybody has be be judged on only those less-than-commendable traits about them, we will have to smash the faces off of Mount Rushmore, destroy 99.9% of public buildings, bring down all the monuments and memorials including those dedicated to Dr. Martin Luther King, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Otherwise history is what it is, the good and the bad, the just and the unjust, the commendable and unacceptable. Those statues being removed/destroyed could just as easily be used to symbols to teach accurate history. Those people did not erect their own monuments or markers of their time in history. Historians did.
    The statues are gone and hopefully will be destroyed...Historians did NOT erect those "monuments"...Racist bigots did...They have NO place in modern society
    Power concedes Nothing without a Demand it never has and Never Will

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...tatues/548990/



    Bottom line is Memphis is over 2/3 black and there's no good reason the people of Memphis need to keep monuments to slavers and Kluckers in their public parks. Blacks had no say when these monuments to racists and white supremacists were erected during the Jim Crow era, and the State of Tennessee again removed their voice in deciding to ignore the people of Memphis and rule that Memphis had to keep these monuments in place. I'm glad Memphis found a way to do what they've tried to do by working with the state for years now. The State refused to negotiate in good faith, passing laws further removing the voice of the people in Memphis, and so the city of Memphis found a way to do what the citizens of Memphis demanded. The world is better off with those monuments gone.
    Selling public property to a non-profit that's owned by the county commissioner sounds crooked as hell, to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    While we are removing "offensive statues" lets remove the Statue of Liberty, which at the time of its donation to the U.S. the U.S. was oppressing Native Americans. Let's remove the Stature of Christopher Columbus from Columbus Circle in NY, a man who took Natives as slaves and brought disease to Turtle Island. Let's remove Mt. Rushmore, this land was taken from the Native Americans and it was a sacred place in the Black Hills. Lets remove all Statues of Andrew Jackson also know as "Indian Killer" and those of Custer. Geez, while we're at it lets not forget the Washington Monument, for he was a slave holder, or the Jefferson Memorial.

    We can go on and on, but, you know, no matter how hard they try and erase history, it's still going to be there.
    They'rr already working on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They'rr already working on that.
    Christopher Columbus lit the fuze that led to genocide of native Americans. Columbus Day should be a day of shame, not celebration.

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    Re: Memphis's Novel Strategy for Tearing Down Confederate Statues

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
    While we are removing "offensive statues" lets remove the Statue of Liberty, which at the time of its donation to the U.S. the U.S. was oppressing Native Americans. Let's remove the Stature of Christopher Columbus from Columbus Circle in NY, a man who took Natives as slaves and brought disease to Turtle Island. Let's remove Mt. Rushmore, this land was taken from the Native Americans and it was a sacred place in the Black Hills. Lets remove all Statues of Andrew Jackson also know as "Indian Killer" and those of Custer. Geez, while we're at it lets not forget the Washington Monument, for he was a slave holder, or the Jefferson Memorial.

    We can go on and on, but, you know, no matter how hard they try and erase history, it's still going to be there.
    The portrait of Andrew Jackson that hangs in the Oval Office was an insult to the 3 surviving Navajo Code Talkers that Trump greeted there recently. And his use of the Pocahontas ethnic slur in their presence show his fine sensibilities (not!).
    Last edited by JacksinPA; 12-22-17 at 04:57 PM.

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