• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US Senate: ‘‘Tax Cuts and Jobs Act’’

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
94,166
Reaction score
82,434
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Moderators: Wasn't sure where to locate this. This govt. document was released today - 21 November 2017 and effects every citizen and business in the United States.

US Senate: ‘‘Tax Cuts and Jobs Act’’

The pdf above contains the entire 515 page US GOP Senate Tax Cuts and Jobs Act that will supposedly be voted on before Christmas. Unusually fast. The GOP House passed its tax reform package in 14 days.

William Galston of the Brookings Institution said:
“One reason these bills are going through so quickly is they’re primarily about tax cuts and only secondarily about tax reform.”

The last tax reform legislation occurred in 1986 and stretched out over several months. Caveat emptor.
 
Moderators: Wasn't sure where to locate this. This govt. document was released today - 21 November 2017 and effects every citizen and business in the United States.

US Senate: ‘‘Tax Cuts and Jobs Act’’

The pdf above contains the entire 515 page US GOP Senate Tax Cuts and Jobs Act that will supposedly be voted on before Christmas. Unusually fast. The GOP House passed its tax reform package in 14 days.



The last tax reform legislation occurred in 1986 and stretched out over several months. Caveat emptor.

The tax cuts for corporations and passive income are permanent...but the tax cuts for the middle class go completely away after 6 years - and when combined with the deductions that are rescinded by the bills, the middle class effectively gets a tax hike. In other words, they truly are raising taxes on the middle class in order to meet the requirements to pass legislation by "reconciliation"...so that they can give the wealthy a massive and permanent tax cut.

What really gets me, though, is that the conservatives are mostly okay with this, with the GOP effectively raising their taxes...but have no problem with the tax breaks included for golf course owners, for personal jets, and for passive income (for those with lots of stock who can basically live off the dividends. Talk about voting against one's own self-interests!
 
The tax cuts for corporations and passive income are permanent...but the tax cuts for the middle class go completely away after 6 years - and when combined with the deductions that are rescinded by the bills, the middle class effectively gets a tax hike. In other words, they truly are raising taxes on the middle class in order to meet the requirements to pass legislation by "reconciliation"...so that they can give the wealthy a massive and permanent tax cut.

What really gets me, though, is that the conservatives are mostly okay with this, with the GOP effectively raising their taxes...but have no problem with the tax breaks included for golf course owners, for personal jets, and for passive income (for those with lots of stock who can basically live off the dividends. Talk about voting against one's own self-interests!

What I can't quite understand is how/why Congressional "conservatives" are now okie-dokie with the GOP "tax-reform" package massively adding to the deficit over the next decade.

Whatever happened to Republican "fiscal responsibility"? I also have no idea why the Trump base cannot realize this legislation is primarily payback for the donor class. The GOP has even said this publicly.
 
The tax cuts for corporations and passive income are permanent...but the tax cuts for the middle class go completely away after 6 years - and when combined with the deductions that are rescinded by the bills, the middle class effectively gets a tax hike. In other words, they truly are raising taxes on the middle class in order to meet the requirements to pass legislation by "reconciliation"...so that they can give the wealthy a massive and permanent tax cut.

What really gets me, though, is that the conservatives are mostly okay with this, with the GOP effectively raising their taxes...but have no problem with the tax breaks included for golf course owners, for personal jets, and for passive income (for those with lots of stock who can basically live off the dividends. Talk about voting against one's own self-interests!

The primary focus of the bill is to cut taxes on corp taxes which we despirately need. They have to let the cuts expire to get it through procedures since I doubt any Dems would be rational enough to support the bill and keep it in filibuster purgatory.
 
The primary focus of the bill is to cut taxes on corp taxes which we despirately need. They have to let the cuts expire to get it through procedures since I doubt any Dems would be rational enough to support the bill and keep it in filibuster purgatory.

If they cut the corporate taxes from their current 35% to "only" 25% instead of to 20%, they wouldn't need to raise taxes on anyone...and they wouldn't need to slash deductions like the $250 tax credit that teachers get for purchasing school supplies for their students, or the deductions that grad students get so they don't graduate under a mountain of debt. But no, they've GOTTA have it down to 20%...and so the rest of us have to pay through the nose for their golf course deductions and private plane deductions and passive income tax cut.
 
If they cut the corporate taxes from their current 35% to "only" 25% instead of to 20%, they wouldn't need to raise taxes on anyone...and they wouldn't need to slash deductions like the $250 tax credit that teachers get for purchasing school supplies for their students, or the deductions that grad students get so they don't graduate under a mountain of debt. But no, they've GOTTA have it down to 20%...and so the rest of us have to pay through the nose for their golf course deductions and private plane deductions and passive income tax cut.

It makes companies more competitive and bolsters the economy. Under the new system I'm personally going to pay the same or more because I live in a blue state that taxes us to hell and can't deduct that anymore. I don't completely like the bill but it's better than what we have now.
 
The primary focus of the bill is to cut taxes on corp taxes which we despirately need. They have to let the cuts expire to get it through procedures since I doubt any Dems would be rational enough to support the bill and keep it in filibuster purgatory.

Why do we need corporate tax cuts? The effective tax rate for US corps is lower than the world average. The biggest issue is variation among different industries.

How will this corporate tax rate cut benefit Americans? Corporations are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash and a lot of their profits have been used in stock buybacks and higher dividends. We are basically adding trillions in the deficit for....what gain for the country?
 
No independent analysis so far has concluded that this GOP tax-reform (tax cut) legislation will be "revenue-neutral" (growth canceling out the $1.5+ trillion/ decade revenue loss)

All have said it will generate a short-lived (12 month) economic burst of 6% growth and then revert back to 3% growth (hopefully - depending on inflation etc.). This renders this tax legislation "revenue-negative".
 
It makes companies more competitive and bolsters the economy. Under the new system I'm personally going to pay the same or more because I live in a blue state that taxes us to hell and can't deduct that anymore. I don't completely like the bill but it's better than what we have now.

You're spouting Reaganomics - the supply-side trickle-down theory that does not work and has never worked. Here's an article by a CEO describing how he has never seen anyone use tax cuts as motivation to invest more in their companies or hire more people. And we've known this for years - here's a 2012 article in Forbes' (not exactly a liberal rag) showing that no, tax cuts don't result in more jobs.

And here's a 65-year study showing that no, tax cuts do not result in economic growth.

Look, one of the things that is common among CEOs and the ultra-wealthy is that they love money more than most of us, and they'll fight like hell to keep as much of their money as they can. If a billionaire can spend $1M on buying political influence in order to save $25M in taxes, what do you think he's going to do? He doesn't give a rat's ass how the tax cuts will hurt those of us in the middle- and lower-classes - that's all stuff and nonsense to him. What's important to him is that he gets to keep his money...

...and him keeping his money does NOT result in a more robust economy - there's precisely zero hard evidence to back up trickle-down theory...and LOTS of evidence showing that it doesn't work. Next time, beware of the dogma you're being told when there's no hard evidence to back it up.
 
The primary focus of the bill is to cut taxes on corp taxes which we despirately need. They have to let the cuts expire to get it through procedures since I doubt any Dems would be rational enough to support the bill and keep it in filibuster purgatory.
We do not need corporate taxes cut desperately. Corporations are already sitting on mounds of cash and giving them more cash isn't going to make any behavioral changes, just enrich shareholders. Moreover, the Tax Policy Center released its macroeconomic analysis of the House tax cut bill. TPC is not impressed: their model says that GDP would be only 0.3 percent higher than baseline in 2027. I assume the same negligible GDP gain for the Senate bill.

Professor Krugman's analysis writes that since foreigners who own American corporations will also be getting the benefit of this tax-cut, the Gross National Income (GNI) will actually fall as a result of this bill.

Start with the direct effects of a corporate tax cut. The JCT puts the revenue loss at $171 billion in 2027. Assume, as is roughly the consensus, that 1/3 of this accrues to workers, but two-thirds to capital. Steve Rosenthal says that about 35 percent of this gain, in turn, accrues to foreign investors. So right there we have about $40 billion in additional investment income paid to foreigners.

Then there are the effects of the trade deficit. I can’t figure out TPC’s estimate there, but typical numbers from other modelers say that we’re looking at around $80 billion a year, or $800 billion in increased net foreign liabilities. BEA numbers say that foreign investors in the US earn on average about 2%, U.S. investors abroad around 3%. So this suggests an average return of maybe 2.5%? My guess is that this is low, because the changes would be focused on direct investment, which earns higher returns. But let’s go with it: in that case we’re talking about another $20 billion in investment income paid to foreigners.

Put it together, and for 2027 I get $60 billion in reduced GNI relative to GDP. Potential GDP is supposed to be about $28 trillion by then, so we’re talking a bit over 0.2% of GDP.
The prime focus of the bill is to reward GOP donors that are revolting against the GOP because the donors aren't seeing any return on investment for their campaign contributions. As such, the bill gives massive tax-cuts to the rich and must raise taxes on everyone else in order to pass it through reconciliation, so the GOP can pass the bill without Democrats. Below are the winners and losers:

DPKqemWUEAAX8DF.jpg:large

As you can see, of the top 1/10 of 1% of taxpayers 98.1% get a tax-cut compared to more than half of the middle class getting tax increases.
 
Last edited:
The primary focus of the bill is to cut taxes on corp taxes which we despirately need. They have to let the cuts expire to get it through procedures since I doubt any Dems would be rational enough to support the bill and keep it in filibuster purgatory.

I actually support corporate tax reform, but there is a fundamental dishonesty IMO in going about it this way. First of all, the House includes a $40 billion/year estate tax giveaway to the ultra wealthy, the literal top 0.2% of the country. That bill repeals the estate tax entirely AND allows heirs to write up basis to FMV at decedent's death. There's no way to defend that other than to describe it as what it is - the United States House of Representatives acting as errand boys for the plutocrats and oligarchs that fund the party.

For me it completely obliterates the notion that we should award the House with anything like a good faith belief that their plan will benefit the bottom 90% or so because we all KNOW, with 100% certainty that this year during the national debt negotiations or next year, those same people will tell us that the $12 TRILLION projected deficits for the next decade will destroy the country and so the only option available is to make deep cuts to Medicare, SS and Medicaid, plus the rest of the safety nets (food stamps, disability, etc.). I'd bet my house on it. So we know the estate tax provisions will be paid for with cuts to old people, and the middle class and poor, and is a way to use the tax code to shift wealthy from the poor and old to the already rich. That's how the math works.

Bringing it back to corporate taxes, the big problem with our system is there are massive built in tax loopholes, in part because our tax rates ARE out of whack with competitor economies. There's a good reason to get our rates in line with the rest of the world, but if it's not going to be a complete giveaway (i.e. reduce the rates but close no loopholes), then there has to be actual reform that close those loopholes. Those kinds of "reforms" would remove much of the incentives to do business abroad but also more or less be revenue neutral to the big multinationals who right now pay EXTREMELY low income tax rates on their income. They don't need a tax cut at all. What MIGHT help is lowering our rates to remove the tax incentive to invest abroad. But if you don't close the loopholes, you don't change the incentives to do business abroad, you just lower rates.

Point is I am ignorant about the details of international taxation and so have to trust the House to do the right thing. But to trust them to do the right thing would be stupid as hell, IMO. What I trust they'll do, given the estate provisions, is shovel money hand over fist to the people they SERVE, which are the plutocrats and oligarchs, because that's who they tell us throughout the bill who they really care about.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom