• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Cohn on tax plan: "Trickle down" is a good thing

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
94,164
Reaction score
82,432
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Cohn on tax plan: "Trickle down" is a good thing

By Alayna Treene
November 9, 2017

104428889-RTS141KV.530x298.jpg

Trump Economic Director Gary Cohn, left, with Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin

When first rolling out the GOP tax plan, the Trump administration maintained that the wealthy "will not be gaining at all." In recent weeks, Trump's point men on tax reform, Gary Cohn and Steve Mnuchin, have conceded that their plan will benefit the rich, while saying that could actually be a positive. In their efforts to sell the tax plan, which Trump and GOP leaders are pitching as a "raise" for middle class families, Trump's point men may actually be making things more difficult. Here's Cohn to CNBC's John Hardwood: "The whole trickle down ... is good for the economy," adding, "the most excited group out there are big CEOs, about our tax plan." Last month, Mnuchin said that while the tax plan does cut rates for the wealthy, it's "very hard" to implement tax cuts without doing so. The claim that this plan is designed to help the rich isn't going away. Steve Bannon said recently of Cohn: "Ask him why they didn't design a tax plan focused on average Trump voters?" And Cohn's Obama era predecessor, Larry Summers, has said, "Look, they're doing what their money wants."
Click to expand...

We've already be down the Republican "trickle-down' economic path and it doesn't work ... except for the wealthy.
 
This is like saying unicorns are a good thing. Yeah sure, if they were real.

But they have never worked. They did not work in the early industrial revolution to get rid of child labor and other abuses, and nothing trickled down until there were child labor laws, minimum wage laws, workplace safety laws, etc.... and it has not worked since Reagan's time. Their insistence that it works is as silly as people who keep insisting communism works. There's a reason why every developed modern economy in the world today is not pure capitalist or communist, but hybrid. It's not because they are too stupid to see the benefits of pure unfettered capitalism.
 
You can't really have a tax cut without cutting the taxes of the people who pay the taxes.
 
Anthony60 said:
You can't really have a tax cut without cutting the taxes of the people who pay the taxes.
Click to expand...

It is who needs the cuts the most.
Interesting article if you wish to read it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/10/eitc-for-all/542898/

nce then, improvements to the EITC have made it one of the country’s most successful anti-poverty efforts. In 1997, Clinton designed the new Child Tax Credit (CTC) to further bolster EITC payments, and, later, President Obama further expanded the tax credits, first on a temporary basis and eventually permanently. Due to these expansions, about 10 million people are lifted out of poverty each year by the combination of these two tax credits. A working parent with two children earning $18,000 who might have received less than $1,000 in 1992 now can be eligible for as much as $7,500.

Yet, for all that progress, the size of the tax credit for workers without children has barely changed. Its value has only increased to match inflation, making the maximum credit just over $500 now and the average EITC only $293 for this group. Only the lowest-income workers in this group are eligible. A full-time, year-round single worker who earns the federal minimum wage receives an EITC of only $37 to supplement her $14,500 in earnings, for example.
Click to expand...
 
Top economic adviser: Tax plan that mostly benefits millionaires is about ‘wage growth’

The Tax Policy Center estimates that about a quarter of the benefits of the tax cuts would be seen by the bottom 80 percent of the American economy — and another quarter of the benefits would be seen by the top 0.1 percent.
Click to expand...

Considering population demographics and wealth indices, that is a glaring disparity.

He argues that the benefits will come from businesses repatriating earnings and reinvesting in the United States, which will spur new jobs and new wage growth. Cohn even embraces the term “trickle down” to describe that idea, that making things easier for business and the wealthy will trickle down to American workers.
Click to expand...

That's quite a benevolent assumption. If history is a guide, most corporations will use the new tax bonanza to buy back company shares, pay down their corporate debt, re-enumerate top-tier company officers and board members, merge/takeover offers to other corporations. These options are far more likely than enlarging facilities, hiring more workers, and increasing wages.

The Tax Policy Center estimated in its analysis of the proposal that the bottom 20 percent of American taxpayers would see a cut of about $10 in their tax bill by 2027 — basically no difference. The middle fifth would save $320, on average, a savings of 0.4 percent. The top 1 percent would save $52,780 — a 1.5 percent cut.
Click to expand...
 
Rogue Valley said:
Top economic adviser: Tax plan that mostly benefits millionaires is about ‘wage growth’



Considering population demographics and wealth indices, that is a glaring disparity.



That's quite a benevolent assumption. If history is a guide, most corporations will use the new tax bonanza to buy back company shares, pay down their corporate debt, re-enumerate top-tier company officers and board members, merge/takeover offers to other corporations. These options are far more likely than enlarging facilities, hiring more workers, and increasing wages.
Click to expand...

Since the benefits that corporations receive from tax cuts come with no strings attached, they can hardly be blamed for spending the money in ways that will best benefit the companies. For trickle down to work there would have to be incentives for the corporations to risk spending the money on hiring more workers or giving them raises.
 
Anthony60 said:
You can't really have a tax cut without cutting the taxes of the people who pay the taxes.
Click to expand...

Cutting personal income taxes does very little to stimulate the economy. This tax plan will only make the rich richer, at the expense of the middle class. At first, the middle class will save a few hundred per year, while the Multi-Millionaires save millions. The deficit will grow, along with the associated debt, and future policy will be forced to penalize the middle class.
 
JANFU said:
It is who needs the cuts the most.
Interesting article if you wish to read it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/10/eitc-for-all/542898/
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of giving "refunds" to people that did not pay any taxes, or giving them more back than they paid in. That's not a tax system, that is a welfare system. I think just about anyone that is making money should be paying some taxes, it is not good to have people that don't contribute, in one way or another.
 
Media_Truth said:
Cutting personal income taxes does very little to stimulate the economy. This tax plan will only make the rich richer, at the expense of the middle class. At first, the middle class will save a few hundred per year, while the Multi-Millionaires save millions. The deficit will grow, along with the associated debt, and future policy will be forced to penalize the middle class.
Click to expand...

I am for making all of us richer, and the government less so. I don't exist to fund the government, it is here to serve us, not the other way around. I don't like the tax plan, there is too much tax in it.
 
Anthony60 said:
I'm not a big fan of giving "refunds" to people that did not pay any taxes, or giving them more back than they paid in. That's not a tax system, that is a welfare system. I think just about anyone that is making money should be paying some taxes, it is not good to have people that don't contribute, in one way or another.
Click to expand...

This program works and i support such programs.
Depends upon how you look at it.
Keeping people near, at or below poverty lines has significant social costs that are not always seen, but are paid for by the State- Federal, State or Municipal.
 
JANFU said:
This program works and i support such programs.
Depends upon how you look at it.
Keeping people near, at or below poverty lines has significant social costs that are not always seen, but are paid for by the State- Federal, State or Municipal.
Click to expand...


In this province the disabled were given a $100 a month raise two months ago, after a 12 year freeze by our previous government. An economist with Van City credit union (the largest in Canada) estimates that ALL of that expense will be recovered in reduced ancillary costs, such as emergency shelter and food allowances, and believe it or not, emergency room visits.

Further, you will know that "welfare" has been a huge issue in this province, we had a premier who said he would fix the problem by giving them shovels, the the belief most are cheats. The truth is cheating is very rare and from the time I ran a social enterprise gardening company found most on disability simply wanted off it all together. One guy I hired referred to the $ he got each month as "government crack" 'cause once you're on it there''s no way out, and your whole life i managed by government bureaucrats who do things like hold to the rule only one pair of glasses over two years, even when yours were broken fending off a sexual attack.

I defy anyone who tries to live on what the government gives out for ONE month without resorting to other measures. Several politicians have tried and all failed...one said he came to two options, sell his body or steal.
 
Anthony60 said:
You can't really have a tax cut without cutting the taxes of the people who pay the taxes.
Click to expand...

originally it was sold as a tax code revision
the intent was ostensibly to eliminate the loopholes in the tax code that the little people could not enjoy, to make the tax system more fair

then it became a tax cut

and now it's a tax cut for the rich, paid for by eliminating write offs for the not-rich, and cuts to programs for the poor

but that's OK, because money will trickle down from the affluent, because you know that the wealthy corporations always spend their increased income to pay increased wages to the average worker
 
Anthony60 said:
You can't really have a tax cut without cutting the taxes of the people who pay the taxes.
Click to expand...
Thanks for talking point #326. The truth is that Obama DID cut taxes without including the top 1%. Thus, it can be done.

The Trump tax-plan is a cut for the rich and an increase in taxes for nearly everyone else. I know that you don't want to listen, but listen anyway. All you need to know about the Trump GOP plan is that to pass their immense tax giveaway to the rich, without Democrats participating, Republicans need to ensure their plan would add no more than $1.5 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. To do so, they’re cutting billions of dollars in tax benefits to people trying to raise children, pay for college, buy a home or invest in renewable energy.

My question to Anthony60 is: I could understand you shilling for the rich if you were one of their lobbyists. Why are you compelled to argue that the rich in America need a tax-cut or that America is better off when the rich have lower taxes, the evidence of which is non-existent?
 
justabubba said:
originally it was sold as a tax code revision
the intent was ostensibly to eliminate the loopholes in the tax code that the little people could not enjoy, to make the tax system more fair

then it became a tax cut

and now it's a tax cut for the rich, paid for by eliminating write offs for the not-rich, and cuts to programs for the poor

but that's OK, because money will trickle down from the affluent, because you know that the wealthy corporations always spend their increased income to pay increased wages to the average worker
Click to expand...

That's the big problem, eliminating the write off. Don't tell me I'm getting a tax cut, and then eliminate deductions to make up for it. A lot of people will end up paying more. Of course, a flat tax would be great, but not for lawyers and accountants, so they don't want to do that.

This doesn't really have any effect on wages.
 
MTAtech said:
Thanks for talking point #326. The truth is that Obama DID cut taxes without including the top 1%. Thus, it can be done.

The Trump tax-plan is a cut for the rich and an increase in taxes for nearly everyone else. I know that you don't want to listen...
Click to expand...
I've already said I don't like this tax plan.

My question to Anthony60 is: I could understand you shilling for the rich if you were one of their lobbyists. Why are you compelled to argue that the rich in America need a tax-cut or that America is better off when the rich have lower taxes, the evidence of which is non-existent?
Click to expand...
Wow, I thought there were no dumb questions, I stand corrected. Ask someone that supports this tax plan, not me.
 
Anthony60 said:
I am for making all of us richer, and the government less so. I don't exist to fund the government, it is here to serve us, not the other way around. I don't like the tax plan, there is too much tax in it.
Click to expand...

So you think a tax plan that allows multi-millionaires to save millions, while the middle class saves a few hundred is going to reduce government? And if they reduce taxes even more, double those amounts for multi-millionaires, and the middle class. This will reduce government even more? Explain that logic.
 
Anthony60 said:
That's the big problem, eliminating the write off. Don't tell me I'm getting a tax cut, and then eliminate deductions to make up for it. A lot of people will end up paying more. Of course, a flat tax would be great, but not for lawyers and accountants, so they don't want to do that.

This doesn't really have any effect on wages.
Click to expand...

A flat tax is the most regressive of all. You must be a multi-millionaire, if you're touting a flat tax. The poor janitor will pay the same percentage of tax for his hard 40-hour work week, as a billionaire pays for an on-par investment earned, with no toiling involved, in less than one minute.
 
Media_Truth said:
A flat tax is the most regressive of all. You must be a multi-millionaire, if you're touting a flat tax. The poor janitor will pay the same percentage of tax for his hard 40-hour work week, as a billionaire pays for an on-par investment earned, with no toiling involved, in less than one minute.
Click to expand...

The janitor will also pay the same tax on his investments and retirement accounts that involve no toiling also.
 
Anthony60 said:
The janitor will also pay the same tax on his investments and retirement accounts that involve no toiling also.
Click to expand...

Very idealistic. You must be a Socialist...
 
Anthony60 said:
The janitor will also pay the same tax on his investments and retirement accounts that involve no toiling also.
Click to expand...

but he will also pay a much higher rate for the earnings from the sweat of his brow
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom