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Progressive, “fair wage” pizza shop closing its doors

Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

The problem with a purely, or almost purely, competitive system is that sociopaths have an inherent advantage in large-scale competitions. People who are willing to lie, cheat, defraud, defame, or otherwise act with no sense of fairness or reciprocity when it benefits them not to act ethically can get more money faster than those who maintain their principles at all times. To survive against a sociopath in such a system, you must behave like a sociopath, and pretty soon, society resembles just what you'd expect...a bunch of sociopaths. That is the problem with capitalism, and on a social scale, the only remedy (aside from shooting all the sociopaths, which seems rather, erm, sociopathic) is adding socialist elements to the economy.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that capitalism also has its benefits, in that it pushes people to excellence. Too much socialism is just as bad as too much capitalism. This is why a mixed economic system is the best kind of system to have. Capitalism and socialism each temper the worst excesses of the other.
 
Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

ashurbanipal said:
The problem with a purely, or almost purely, competitive system is that sociopaths have an inherent advantage in large-scale competitions. People who are willing to lie, cheat, defraud, defame, or otherwise act with no sense of fairness or reciprocity when it benefits them not to act ethically can get more money faster than those who maintain their principles at all times. To survive against a sociopath in such a system, you must behave like a sociopath, and pretty soon, society resembles just what you'd expect...a bunch of sociopaths. That is the problem with capitalism, and on a social scale, the only remedy (aside from shooting all the sociopaths, which seems rather, erm, sociopathic) is adding socialist elements to the economy.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that capitalism also has its benefits, in that it pushes people to excellence. Too much socialism is just as bad as too much capitalism. This is why a mixed economic system is the best kind of system to have. Capitalism and socialism each temper the worst excesses of the other.
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Biggest problems I've seen are:

1. Capital has inherent advantage over labor unless labor organizes or offers something unique which cannot be done by machine or someone more desperate or simply willing to work for less money.

2. Consumer gullibility, herd mentality or willingness to buy products produced by child or near slave labor.

3. Greed by those controlling the purse or rules of the game
 
Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

Mr Person said:
BINGO!


Maybe there is/was something to be said of the "American work ethic", but some people insist on overlooking the simple fact that in both WWI and WWII, much of Europe's infrastructure was demolished, countysides demolished, cities demolished, and while every country involved lost many people, Europeans lost more than we did. We came out with a booming manufacturing sector. Meanwhile, the USSR and China proceeded to rip their own insides out with radical centralization.
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By 1945, the USA had been the world's biggest industrial power for the past 60 years.
Sixty years earlier would be the the 1880s, which would be AFTER slavery had been abolished.

The advantage the USA had in 1945 was the temporary industrial dominance due to, as indicated, the destruction of WW II.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Depends on how good the pizza is and if it stands apart from the competition. Good things cost money and people who realize that will pay more for a quality product.
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Guess they didn't and learned basic economics the hard way,huh?

They also learned another lesson. Liberals love to talk the 'common good" talk, but when the rubber hits the road, they act in their self interest-just like us free market capitalsts always sy,
 
MTAtech said:
Who says that we have a fair economic system?
.
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The article did.

If you don't have marketable skills , don't expect big pay.
If you overpay workers, you won't last long in business.How do we know they 'overpaid" Simple. The market told us that. None of the
other pizza shops paid the wages that these SJW's did.
It's all there.
 
calamity said:
Ginos East Chicago charges and arm and a leg for their pizza. Figure $100 for some pizza and drinks for two people. But, guess what. They are lined up an hour deep, every night...have been since the 1970's.

Oh, and I plan to hit them up and get me some when I'm in town next week on business. Hopefully the wait is only half an hour on Tuesdays.
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Good. You should put yourself out there as a consultant for pizzeia's and recommend that the pizza shops all charge 100 for some pizza and drinks because, after all, Gino's does it.
 
KLATTU said:
The article did.

If you don't have marketable skills , don't expect big pay.
If you overpay workers, you won't last long in business.How do we know they 'overpaid" Simple. The market told us that. None of the
other pizza shops paid the wages that these SJW's did.
It's all there.
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I'd be interested to see some argument for these claims. As it stands, they're just assertions. Why should we believe the "market" determines whether a person is overpaid or underpaid, especially in context of the fact that you were replying to someone who was talking about fairness?
 
New businesses fail all the time, the idea that this proves that workers can't be paid living wages is ludicrous.
 
KLATTU said:
The article did.

If you don't have marketable skills , don't expect big pay.
If you overpay workers, you won't last long in business.How do we know they 'overpaid" Simple. The market told us that. None of the
other pizza shops paid the wages that these SJW's did.
It's all there.
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You said that the article stated what they pay. I didn't see that. What did they pay?

There are many valid business reasons to pay workers more than the lowest wages the market will bare. Some of those reasons are employee retention, loyalty, lower turnover, etc. Costco pays more than market suggests and they are thriving. One really doesn't have to be an ogre employer to be profitable.
 
ashurbanipal said:
I'd be interested to see some argument for these claims. As it stands, they're just assertions. Why should we believe the "market" determines whether a person is overpaid or underpaid, especially in context of the fact that you were replying to someone who was talking about fairness?
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That is how price works. Have you not taken microecon?
 
Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

KevinKohler said:
Slavery, and then WW2.
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Yes World War II played a giant role, but simply stating world war II leaves out WHY it was important. Between WWII and today, the globe has become a lot more capitalistic in the way it operates. It's beautiful for sure. Average incomes worldwide have gone up.
 
MTAtech said:
Yo

There are many valid business reasons to pay workers more than the lowest wages the market will bare. Some of those reasons are employee retention, loyalty, lower turnover, etc. Costco pays more than market suggests and they are thriving. One really doesn't have to be an ogre employer to be profitable.
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Exactly. The Government doesn't need to get involved.
 
Building up a base, and return customers is important too.

There's a mom and pop pizza place near me, been in business since the 60's. iI sells pizza, and only pizza, no bread, no pasta, no sit-downs, no delivery. Just pick-up pizza. Costs about $15 for a pie with 1-2 toppings. There's also the Pizza Huts, Dominoes, Lil Caesar's, etc around here that sell pizza for 1/2 that price. But it is crap, and worse than crap when compared to this mom and pop place.

Around here there's colleges and kids that buy the cheap, crap pizza. So those places do fine. But this mom and pop place has been in business for 60 years because their pizza is excellent AND return customers, we've bought their pizza for 30 years. Everyone in this neighborhood knows their pizza is great, and is willing to spend more for their pizza.

I would think this 'fair wage' pizza place should have started out selling their pizza cheaper, to get the customers in the door, built up a base, a clientele. Then gradually increased wages and prices. If their pizza was better then surrounding pizza places their customers would pay extra and stay with them.
 
KLATTU said:
Guess they didn't and learned basic economics the hard way,huh?

They also learned another lesson. Liberals love to talk the 'common good" talk, but when the rubber hits the road, they act in their self interest-just like us free market capitalsts always sy,
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Speak English, your response has zero to do with my point.
 
Deuce said:
New businesses fail all the time, the idea that this proves that workers can't be paid living wages is ludicrous.
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Living wage. And what would that be?? And Should a teenage kid in wealthy household make that?

In a y depressed area with high unemployment, thus in dire need of new businesses, ( ie just about every inner city neighborhood) should the Government make it even harder to start a new business by forcing high labor costs on them?
 
HenryChinaski said:
Speak English, your response has zero to do with my point.
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LOL
. As I've often said. Trying to explain basic economics and capitalism to a liberal is like trying to explain cricket to an American.
 
Spartacus said:
That is how price works.
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Yet another assertion. Give me an argument, a list of true premises and a conclusion that is inferred by valid reasoning. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe the assertion...and moreover, if you (or someone) cannot at least produce a plausible argument, I'd have to believe that there are probably good reasons not to accept the assertion.

Spartacus said:
Have you not taken microecon?
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Of course I have. No argument was forthcoming in that class.
 
KLATTU said:
if your pizza costs three bucks a slice when everyone else is selling them for two, you’re not going to last long.
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Which is why it's so important to pass minimum wage laws at the state and federal level to ensure that businesses aren't forced to screw their employees just because one of their competitors is doing it.

That's the thing about so much government regulation. It's not hurting businesses, it's allowing decent business owners who are otherwise ethical and care about their employees to do the right thing, and treat their workers well without some **** headed business owner who doesn't give a **** about his workers gaining a competitive edge over them.

This is what Nash Equilibriums are all about. A bad equilibrium can force an otherwise good person to do something evil in order to secure their own survival. Usually, it is only through government regulation that you can change that equalibrium, and insure all parties are doing the right thing. It's no different than an NFL referee throwing a flag for unnecessary roughness No team really wants excessive roughness that could get players hurt, but the reality is injuring another teams best player does benefit you. So without uniform enforcement of rules against that kind of thing enforced by a central authority it would be rampent.
 
MTAtech said:
There are many valid business reasons to pay workers more than the lowest wages the market will bare. Some of those reasons are employee retention, loyalty, lower turnover, etc. Costco pays more than market suggests and they are thriving. One really doesn't have to be an ogre employer to be profitable.
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That's lovely, but in the case of places like Costco, Walmart, Target, McDonald's, Dominoes.... these companies sell enough quantity that they dont' need to turn a large profit. I don't know about you though, but I hate Dominoes, and if I'm going to order Pizza I'd much rather go with a local and more authentic place than a chain. If you're a mom and pop pizza joint you can't realistically compete with Dominoes by paying your delivery drivers 40k/year. At least not unless Dominoes is required by law to do the same.
 
KLATTU said:
LOL
. As I've often said. Trying to explain basic economics and capitalism to a liberal is like trying to explain cricket to an American.
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Cool story bro. Those that desire quality above Dominos are willing to pay more. And restaurants open and close every day. It’s the nature of the industry.
 
MTAtech said:
You said that the article stated what they pay. I didn't see that. What did they pay?

There are many valid business reasons to pay workers more than the lowest wages the market will bare. Some of those reasons are employee retention, loyalty, lower turnover, etc. Costco pays more than market suggests and they are thriving. One really doesn't have to be an ogre employer to be profitable.
Click to expand...

you are comparing apples to oranges.

yes there are valid reasons one being that you have the business to support those wages. that usually means growth in customer base.
While those are reason you might want to pay more your pay must depend on market forces and business income.

If you are making 50k a month but your paying 40k a month in salary before lights and other things then you have a serious issue.
even if your total outflow is 40k out of 50k you still have an issue to deal with.

costco is different then other stores. this has been explained to you before.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/06/why-wal-mart-will-never-pay-employees-as-much-as-c.aspx
 
MrWonka said:
Which is why it's so important to pass minimum wage laws at the state and federal level to ensure that businesses aren't forced to screw their employees just because one of their competitors is doing it.
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It has nothing to do with that at all. You are free to charge what you want but that doesn't mean people will pay it. You can easily pay people with pizza at 2 bucks a slice you just have to sell more of it.
however 1 person can only make so much pizza at a time and 1 person can only eat so much pizza. Your costs have to align with your business. minimum wage increases simply distort the market and set a new floor
that someone has to meet. i raise my prices to compensate for it. if they get too high and i can't raise prices (no one is going to pay 5 dollars for a slice of pizza). then i have to look at other area's to cut.

That's the thing about so much government regulation. It's not hurting businesses, it's allowing decent business owners who are otherwise ethical and care about their employees to do the right thing, and treat their workers well without some **** headed business owner who doesn't give a **** about his workers gaining a competitive edge over them.
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this is one of the largest appeal to emotion arguments i have ever seen not to mention a no true scotsman and maybe some special pleading mixed in.
it does hurt business. Why do you think that in all these states where they are passing these wage increase businesses are cutting hours, not hiring as many people etc ....?
why do you think they are now looking towards more automation to replace workers?

You can only pay what the position allows for.

This is what Nash Equilibriums are all about. A bad equilibrium can force an otherwise good person to do something evil in order to secure their own survival. Usually, it is only through government regulation that you can change that equalibrium, and insure all parties are doing the right thing. It's no different than an NFL referee throwing a flag for unnecessary roughness No team really wants excessive roughness that could get players hurt, but the reality is injuring another teams best player does benefit you. So without uniform enforcement of rules against that kind of thing enforced by a central authority it would be rampent.
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Business exists to make money not pay people. There are tons of attempts to try this utopia business model where everyone makes 20 bucks and hour and life is full of rainbows and unicorns.
yet they all fail and close up shop because that model is not sustainable.
 
MrWonka said:
Which is why it's so important to pass minimum wage laws at the state and federal level to ensure that businesses aren't forced to screw their employees just because one of their competitors is doing it.
nt.
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Yes we need the central planners ( almost always economic and business illiterates) to tell everybody what the 'right ' wage should be, regardless of skill level of the employee.

LAFF- RIOT!!!
 
Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

Chomsky said:
That's a very good point.

The problem isn't the pizza joint failing, but rather why does our chosen economic system allow so many to falter and suffer.

We as a society determine our economic system, and when it has large failures it's due to some flaw.

I'd opine that flaw is being exemplified right now, with the upcoming Trump budget and tax plan. That's an example of who's running the economy, and why it's only working really well for a select few.

The pizza joint was simply trying to do the best with the cards it was dealt.
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Because our system was built on the idea of equal opportunity....Success can never be guaranteed.

So many falter and suffer because they are losers.....dumbasses, idtiots and lazy do nothings.
 
Re: Fair wage pizza shop learns the facts of life are consertive

ashurbanipal said:
The problem with a purely, or almost purely, competitive system is that sociopaths have an inherent advantage in large-scale competitions. People who are willing to lie, cheat, defraud, defame, or otherwise act with no sense of fairness or reciprocity when it benefits them not to act ethically can get more money faster than those who maintain their principles at all times. To survive against a sociopath in such a system, you must behave like a sociopath, and pretty soon, society resembles just what you'd expect...a bunch of sociopaths. That is the problem with capitalism, and on a social scale, the only remedy (aside from shooting all the sociopaths, which seems rather, erm, sociopathic) is adding socialist elements to the economy.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that capitalism also has its benefits, in that it pushes people to excellence. Too much socialism is just as bad as too much capitalism. This is why a mixed economic system is the best kind of system to have. Capitalism and socialism each temper the worst excesses of the other.
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Oh for God's sake my father was one of the kindest men ever born and he had a very successful company. From dirt poor in Hoboken to a couple million (mostly in investments by then) in retirement. Hey, that's not huge by today's standards but he and my mom were able to do anything they wanted. (didnt do me much good, I was off to college by then)

And while that is anecdotal, by no means do I believe it's uncommon. I compete in horse and other events and I know loads of people with or retired from very successful businesses they owned...not sociopaths.
 
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