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GOP Senators Unveil New ‘Dreamers’ Bill

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, then that goes to the family members' record in America, doesn't it?

If they try to petition their parents, well, we know they broke the law, so that's a no.

If they try to petition a relative currently illegally in the country who is not eligible for DACA, that's a no, because they broke the law, and now we know who the are because the DACA recipient can only petition immediate family and have to identify and prove relation to them in the petition.

Now, let's say they had a sibling who was brought by their parents like the DACA recipient, but decided to go back as soon as they found out their status was illegal. Well... why shouldn't they be able to receive a petition? They did the best they could to follow the law with the information they had at the time. They were a victim of their parents' decision just like the DACA recipient, and they left the country when they realized their papers weren't in order. I don't see why they should be ineligible.

So, I don't see why we need to triple the length of time to citizenship when the petitionee's history takes care of all of these problems.
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This particular piece of legislation may not be the one that makes it through Congress. Not only can/will there be amendments, most likely the House will either pass its own OR kill the whole effort.

That said, I am opposed to any DACA effort that does not include a secured border and robust VISA system. Failing that, the most that is tolerable is a temporary visa status for those so qualified.

And final DACA bill of "legalization" should exclude ALL chain migration. Whatever the merit of folks (some now 36 years of age) getting a pass on obeying the law because of their "innocence" cannot, logically, be extended to other relations.

Finally, any child of more recent illegal immigration (say the last 4 years) should automatically be deported to their country of origin. They have retained their language and can adapt quite quickly.
 
Chomsky said:
But that's not how it goes.

You can petition those here illegally, as long as they didn't enter illegally. This is done by having relatives come over as a visitor, which is a very simple and common process. If they overstay the visa and become illegal, a petition rectifies that from the day it's filed, even though the petition itself will not be resolved for many years.

And if you ban the dreamer from petitioning - say parents - on their greencard, you've just designated two tiers of a resident. Do we do the same with citizens? Two tiers of citizens?

The problem is greencards allow immediate petition, where the petitioned is protected from the day of the petition, regardless of how many years it takes to resolve or even be found declined. So I think it's best to have a regulated DACA period, then full unencumbered residency (greencard) leading to full unencumbered citizenship. I'd personally do it 5 DACA, then 5 greencard, then citizenship.

BTW, I'm not sure if you're aware the regular path in America is 2yr temp resident, then 5yr years permanent residence (greencard), then after 5 years permanent residence the resident can petition for citizenship. So except for the DACA period, the rest of the bill is standard immigration process, minus the 2yrs temp residency.

I also must point out that forever banning parents from petition is not fair to the dreamer or the parents. What if only one parent brought the kid? Why should the law abiding parent be hurt? What happens in cases of adoption, or marriage, divorce, re-marriage? So I would not want a class of resident or citizen that cannot petition a parent.
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All good points, and I've dedicated so much brain space to my own immigration stuff that I admit I've left little for my homelands. :mrgreen:

There may be no simple solution to this. But my experience as an immigrant tells me 15 years is a hell of a slog, and has an unfairness of its own. I don't think it would hurt for America's visa system to be less blunt specifically for cases like this.
 
Chomsky said:
Who'd have thunk it?



Source: Politico: GOP Senators Unveil New ‘Dreamers’ Bill

--

So a path to citizenship, albeit an onerous 15 year path, but not allowing for family petitions.

I never thought I'd see this from the Repubs, but it seems fair. And it disavows petitions during the non-citizen process, which I like. So I'm good with it.

But I never thought it would come from the GOP!
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Sounds good to me!
 
Helix said:
as in full citizenship now.
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I disagree, but can respect your opinion.

Bur would that include full petition power? Particularly for the parents?

BTW - I must tell you that the citizenship process always takes the usual 5yr permanent resident process, even for a U.S. born citizen marrying a spouse from overseas or already in the country, or for someone working an H1B. So you'd be jumping over the process and putting the Dreamers to the front of the line.
 
Chomsky said:
I disagree, but can respect your opinion.

Bur would that include full petition power? Particularly for the parents?

BTW - I must tell you that the citizenship process always takes the usual 5yr permanent resident process, even for a U.S. born citizen marrying a spouse from overseas or already in the country, or for someone working an H1B.
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i'm aware of the process. one of my best friends was deported a couple years back.

full petition power to keep their parents from getting kicked out? i suppose that could be its own thread. i can think of worse things. for the purposes of this thread, though, i'll say that if a kid has grown up here, then full citizenship across the board.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
All good points, and I've dedicated so much brain space to my own immigration stuff that I admit I've left little for my homelands. :mrgreen:

There may be no simple solution to this. But my experience as an immigrant tells me 15 years is a hell of a slog, and has an unfairness of its own. I don't think it would hurt for America's visa system to be less blunt specifically for cases like this.
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Well then thanks for sticking with me! :cheers:

Yeah, the regular process is usually 5-7 years. But most get their temp greencard in 3-6 mos, and permanent greencard in an 2 additional years. Once permanent, you essentially have all the rights of a citizen including power to petition, but you can't vote and can't get a felony (or you'll never be able to transition to citizen).

Many never get past permanent residence, because they don't see the need for citizenship; they simply renew their greencard every 10 years. Also, once you petition citizenship, you can't reside abroad for more than 6 mos in any calendar year. Plus, if you're not a citizen your work overseas is not taxable by the IRS. For many that go back and forth a lot, these last two (no 6 mos travel limit & no taxes) are a big deal!

And yeah, this is a process near and dear to my heart! I'm surrounded by circumstance!
 
HowardBThiname said:
That sounds pretty good.

While it allows those brought here as children to become citizens, and, really, that's feasible since it's not right to penalize a child for the crimes of its parents, the buck stops right there.

I like it.
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I'm betting that is not where it stops.
 
Helix said:
i support unconditional amnesty for kids brought here by their parents.
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What would you do with the parents, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, etc.?
 
LesGovt said:
What would you do with the parents, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, etc.?
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my preliminary position is that if this is really the enormous problem that some claim that is it, the solution would be to run every job from dishwasher to CEO through everify and fine employers significantly. if we did do something like that, though, i'd probably also support a broader amnesty first. i don't really consider Central Americans to be a significant threat to my wellbeing.
 
Helix said:
my preliminary position is that if this is really the enormous problem that some claim that is it, the solution would be to run every job from dishwasher to CEO through everify and fine employers significantly. if we did do something like that, though, i'd probably also support a broader amnesty first. i don't really consider Central Americans to be a significant threat to my wellbeing.
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What has running any person through e-verify done to anyone? Amnesty for all? If not, who would you not allow to stay? If you allow people who were brought here as children to stay, but not the parents and relatives, then aren't you proposing breaking up families? Just curious as to what people believe a full plan should look like.
 
LesGovt said:
What has running any person through e-verify done to anyone? Amnesty for all? If not, who would you not allow to stay? If you allow people who were brought here as children to stay, but not the parents and relatives, then aren't you proposing breaking up families? Just curious as to what people believe a full plan should look like.
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what are the specifics of an amnesty for all plan, and who is proposing that? propose something, and i'll tell you if i support it or not.
 
Helix said:
what are the specifics of an amnesty for all plan, and who is proposing that? propose something, and i'll tell you if i support it or not.
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I cannot do that. I am pretty sure I oppose amnesty. That is why I was asking. I was attempting to see if someone could change my mind.
 
LesGovt said:
I cannot do that. I am pretty sure I oppose amnesty. That is why I was asking. I was attempting to see if someone could change my mind.
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i appreciate that. so let's say that the US kicks out everyone in the country who is undocumented. what then?
 
Helix said:
i appreciate that. so let's say that the US kicks out everyone in the country who is undocumented. what then?
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Then we have about 21 million illegal people here who should not have been here.
 
Chomsky said:
Who'd have thunk it?



Source: Politico: GOP Senators Unveil New ‘Dreamers’ Bill

--

So a path to citizenship, albeit an onerous 15 year path, but not allowing for family petitions.

I never thought I'd see this from the Repubs, but it seems fair. And it disavows petitions during the non-citizen process, which I like. So I'm good with it.

But I never thought it would come from the GOP!
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The GOP wants to stay relevant politically in the future. Don't think for a second that Trump's narrow win against Hillary has made them forget the 2013 GOP Autopsy report based on Romney's loss to Obama. Pandering to the far right isn't going to be enough in the future to win elections. Heck, it's barely enough now.
 
Helix said:
my preliminary position is that if this is really the enormous problem that some claim that is it, the solution would be to run every job from dishwasher to CEO through everify and fine employers significantly. if we did do something like that, though, i'd probably also support a broader amnesty first. i don't really consider Central Americans to be a significant threat to my wellbeing.
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Actually, I'm hoping mandatory E-Verify will be part of the DACA/Border agreement. I've seen it suggested by one of the politicos, and I'm hoping they can prevail.

And as you said, along with tougher employer penalties.
 
Chomsky said:
My thoughts?

If Trump will sign it, the GOP can pass it on their own. They don't need the Dems.
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Senate may not be the problem, the House could be though.
 
Chomsky said:
Who'd have thunk it?



Source: Politico: GOP Senators Unveil New ‘Dreamers’ Bill

--

So a path to citizenship, albeit an onerous 15 year path, but not allowing for family petitions.

I never thought I'd see this from the Repubs, but it seems fair. And it disavows petitions during the non-citizen process, which I like. So I'm good with it.

But I never thought it would come from the GOP!
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I'd add walking barefooted on a 100 yard bed of white hot coals. :lol:
 
Chomsky said:
Who'd have thunk it?



Source: Politico: GOP Senators Unveil New ‘Dreamers’ Bill

--

So a path to citizenship, albeit an onerous 15 year path, but not allowing for family petitions.

I never thought I'd see this from the Repubs, but it seems fair. And it disavows petitions during the non-citizen process, which I like. So I'm good with it.

But I never thought it would come from the GOP!
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as fair as the bill it liberals will never pass it.
they want full amnesty for everyone.

the sponsor ship part will kill it for them.
 
Mr Person said:
Your post ignores everything that makes your claim that Trump is to thank wrong. Scroll up and take another look.

I can throw in another point: Obama's EO allowed the dreamers to stay. Trump didn't have to do anything if he wanted them to stay.





And if you respond, don't post that stupidly transparent claim that suddenly, millions of Americans were actually really interested in the legal intricacies of EO's and found that one to be wanting after conducting fifty hours of legal research a piece. My computer might die of irony poisoning.

Oh, and pray don't try to explain that Trump has suddenly became a constitutional scholar himself.
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Obama's EO was being challenged in court and was going to lose. Trump bypassed the court process and did away with an unconstitutional EO.

he forced congress to do something about it which they did.
Just like he forced congress on several other issues to get stuff done.

he realizes that unless he puts congress in a position to do something they won't do anything.
he has pigeonholed them times now and i see he will continue to operate that way.
 
Helix said:
i support unconditional amnesty for kids brought here by their parents.
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The borders would be flooded the next day with kids from all over the world.
 
Helix said:
i'm aware of the process. one of my best friends was deported a couple years back.

full petition power to keep their parents from getting kicked out? i suppose that could be its own thread. i can think of worse things. for the purposes of this thread, though, i'll say that if a kid has grown up here, then full citizenship across the board.
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That is a condition.

You said no conditions.
 
Oh what dumbasses these republicans be....


:lamo
 
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