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CA Educator: Algebra Is a 'Civil Rights' Issue. Get Rid Of It.

Simon W. Moon said:
You don't wish for things to be arbitrarily difficult, do you?

If you do want things to be arbitrarily difficult, we could add Mandarin and quantum mechanics to the curriculum for an associates degree in hospitality.

If you don't want thing to be arbitrarily hard, then why not let the difficulty come from things that folks will actually be using in their careers?

Lutherf said:
Second, as an educator your goal should be to help your students find the proper path to achieve their goals. Lowering the standards is the opposite of achievement. In life we all come across tasks with which we struggle. Learning to overcome that struggle is an important step in personal growth.
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Is changing out algebra for something more relevant to the hospitality degree really lowering?
Or is it streamlining?
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It's about problem solving and the abstract aspect of algebra translates directly to non-math functions. It teaches you to differentiate between logical and illogical outcomes. It also teaches you methods for reaching logical conclusions.
 
Phys251 said:
We are talking about math, Harshaw, how it is taught, and who it is taught to. I swear to God, the Far Right wants to make everything a partisan issue. Hell you guys would make 1+1=2 a partisan issue if you could.

Nothing further you say on this matter deserves to be respected until you put aside your partisan hackery.
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Dude, you escalated it. I pointed out the difference between what he said and the ludicrous extreme you took it to.

Like I said, you really, really hate being taken to task for what you say. No one made you say it.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
In the US, high school not the same as 5th grade.

High school come years after 5th grade here.
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this has nothing to do with what I said. college algebra just builds on what you learn in high school.
you still need to learn basic math logic to do any kind of decent paying job.
 
Lutherf said:
It's about problem solving and the abstract aspect of algebra translates directly to non-math functions. It teaches you to differentiate between logical and illogical outcomes. It also teaches you methods for reaching logical conclusions.
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If algebra the only thing that can teach these things, then you may have a very strong point about why a chef needs to pass a college algebra course.

If there're other ways to teach these things, then why should a chef have to pass a college algebra course for his accreditation?
 
ludin said:
this has nothing to do with what I said. college algebra just builds on what you learn in high school.
you still need to learn basic math logic to do any kind of decent paying job.
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If you trace the quotes back, you'll see that this is exactly what we were talking about.

I think the context was lost in the quoting somewhere.
 
Erod said:
CA Educator: Algebra Is a 'Civil Rights' Issue. Get Rid Of It. | Daily Wire



Liberalism today. Wow.

If you can't pass 8th grade math, you aren't a college graduate regardless of your worthless "diploma".

Lol
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I heard this issue discussed on NPR yesterday. It was an interesting discussion. My take-away was this...

- Kids in general fail algebra more than any other subject. I know that *I* struggle greatly with algebra. Once I get past algebra I do fine at the higher levels, but algebra itself is irrational to me. I can't wrap my head around it. It is my educational nemesis. I know that I am in the minority, but I also know that I am not alone.

- Black kids fail more than white kids, and that is used to fuel the racial accusations, yet whites fail more than Asians, so that argument goes nowhere with me. I believe the disparities between groups are cultural, not racial or genetic.

- There is some merit to not requiring intermediate algebra beyond a certain level. Non-STEM occupations, etc. I'm open to that, though I think basic algebra should still be required.

- Really, though, it would be better to focus on how to bring certain groups up, rather than lower the bar for everyone else. Combined with reassessing what's really necessary.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
If algebra the only thing that can teach these things, then you may have a very strong point about why a chef needs to pass a college algebra course.

If there're other ways to teach these things, then why should a chef have to pass a college algebra course for his accreditation?
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There's still some overlap. The chef might manage a department and end up doing paperwork and calculations as part of his job. Not just possible, but likely.
 
radcen said:
The chef might manage a department and end up doing paperwork and calculations as part of his job. Not just possible, but likely.
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There's likely a more a course of study which more directly focuses on what the chef what needs to do his work.

College Algebra I
The course will review the real number system, operations on polynomials and radicals, as well as the Pythagorean theorem and other geometric topics. We will cover the solving of linear, quadratic, and other algebraic equations and identities; developing mathematical models which result in these equations and identities; graphing of lines, circles exponential and polynomial functions; and general ideas and properties of functions.

  • Perform algebraic operations on rational, exponential and radical expressions.
  • Solve linear equations and inequalities and express the results in numerical and graphical form.
  • Solve quadratic and higher degree equations using analytic, graphical and numerical methods.
  • Analyze and interpret linear, polynomial, and exponential functions and their graphs.
  • Use algebraic and exponential functions and equations to solve simple applications.
  • Use the rules for exponents to simplify exponential expressions, including rational exponents.
  • Convert between standard numbers and scientific notation.
  • Simplify, add, subtract, multiply, and divide rational expressions.
  • Simplify, add, subtract, multiply, and divide expressions containing radicals.
  • Rationalize the denominator (or numerator) of a fraction containing radicals.
  • Add, subtract, multiply, and divide polynomials.
  • Factor a polynomial or determine it is not factorable.
  • Solve linear, rational, and radical equations.
  • Solve quadratic equations by factoring and by extracting roots.
  • Solve quadratic equations by completing the square and by using the quadratic formula.
  • Solve equations that are quadratic in form.
  • Solve applied problems using linear and quadratic equations.
  • Solve simple and compound linear inequalities and represent the solution using inequality or interval notation.
  • Calculate the distance between two points.
  • Given two points, find their midpoint.
  • Determine the slope of a line given two points on the line.
  • Find the slope of a line given its angle of inclination, and vice versa.
  • Determine the slope of a line perpendicular to a given line.
  • Determine the slope of a line, and find the equation of a line using given information.
  • Determine when two lines are parallel and when two lines are perpendicular.
  • Write the equation of a line using the slope-intercept form, the point-slope form, or the general standard form.
  • Solve applied problems involving the straight line or linear relationship.
  • Recognize the equation of a circle in standard or expanded form.
  • Write the equation of a circle given the center and radius.
  • Determine the radius and center of a circle from its equation.
  • Sketch the graph of a circle given its equation.
  • Utilize function notation.
  • Determine the domain and range of a function given its equation or its graph.
  • Identify special functions and their graphs (e.g., linear, constant, quadratic, absolute value, and square root.)
  • Perform simple operations on functions (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and composition)
  • Determine the average rate of change of a functions on an interval of its domain.
  • Graph linear equations and linear functions in the Cartesian plane.
  • Sketch the graph of a piecewise-defined function.
  • Determine whether or not a function is one-to-one.
  • Find the inverse of a one-to-one function,
  • Describe a transformation, given the equation of a function and the equation of the transformation.
  • Sketch the graph of f(x+c), f(x) + c, f(cx), or c
  • f(x), given the graph of the function f(x),
  • Recognize the equation of a quadratic function.
  • Determine the vertex of a quadratic function, given its equation.
  • Sketch the graph of a quadratic function, given its equation.
  • Sketch the graph of a polynomial function, given its equation.
  • Identify the domain and range of exponential functions.
  • Sketch the graph of an exponential function, given its equation.
  • Know and be able to use the equation for compound interest.
  • Solve application problems involving exponential growth and decay.as well as compound interest.
  • Sketch the graph of a exponential function, given its equation.
  • Know and be able to use the equation for compound interest.
  • Use the standard model equations for unrestricted exponential growth and logistic growth.
  • Use the standard model equation for exponential decay.
  • Understand the meaning of doubling time and half-life, and use these concepts in applications.
 
He basically wants to replace it with statistics. I think in real life we use statistics (which is also critical thinking) more than algebra.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
If algebra the only thing that can teach these things, then you may have a very strong point about why a chef needs to pass a college algebra course.

If there're other ways to teach these things, then why should a chef have to pass a college algebra course for his accreditation?
Click to expand...

Calculating food cost? Insuring proper inventory control? Event planning? Expanding or decreasing recipes? All those are algebra functions. What if (s)he wants to figure out how to scratch a few more bucks out of the restaurant? Being able to calculate turn rates and revenue per cover are critical...and algebra.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
If you trace the quotes back, you'll see that this is exactly what we were talking about.

I think the context was lost in the quoting somewhere.
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since you agree with him that it should be gotten rid of then well we disagree.
algebra is the least math skills that someone should have.

unless you are going into engineering or graphics etc you don't need anything higher or certain scientific fields.
 
Lovebug said:
That can make all the difference. I sucked at algebra until I met the greatest algebra teacher ever in college. It was so much fun once it clicked.
The sooner you find that person, the easier it is later on.
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My experience was similar. The best math teacher I ever had was my HS Algebra 1 teacher --TJ Henderson.
After learning Algebra from Hendy, as we affectionately called him, I received nothing but A's thru HS, undergrad and grad school in math courses.
This corroborates the value of a great teacher and the laying of a solid foundation. I owe much to this teacher!

On a related side note: I often see a few of my HS classmates post a meme on Facebook stating that "Another day and I didn't use Algebra".
My first reaction is to respond that I use Algebra every day (accountant). I don't respond though. Too nice, I guess! ;)
 
Lutherf said:
Calculating food cost? Insuring proper inventory control? Event planning? Expanding or decreasing recipes? All those are algebra functions. What if (s)he wants to figure out how to scratch a few more bucks out of the restaurant? Being able to calculate turn rates and revenue per cover are critical...and algebra.
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Those all may fall under the broad category of algebra, however they're not the kinds of things which make up what is taught in college algebra.
These're things which are taught in high school or earlier.

I posted a list earlier from google hit here:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...il-rights-issue-get-rid-6.html#post1067437615

Which of the items on that list does a Chef need to know?
It looks like only a small percentage of the items that course will cover are related to cheffing.

Go through the list and let me know what percentage you come up with that are relevant to a chef.
Almost the entirety of that list is irrelevant to a chef's job.
 
ludin said:
since you agree with him that it should be gotten rid of then well we disagree.
algebra is the least math skills that someone should have.
unless you are going into engineering or graphics etc you don't need anything higher or certain scientific fields.
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Mind you we're not talking about basic algebra.

We're specifically talking about college algebra.

But, yes I agree with the general idea that a chef doesn't need to know how to handle quadratic equations or how to plot a circle given its equation to be a good chef.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Those all may fall under the broad category of algebra, however they're not the kinds of things which make up what is taught in college algebra.
These're things which are taught in high school or earlier.

I posted a list earlier from google hit here:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...il-rights-issue-get-rid-6.html#post1067437615

Which of the items on that list does a Chef need to know?
It looks like only a small percentage of the items that course will cover are related to cheffing.

Go through the list and let me know what percentage you come up with that are relevant to a chef.
Almost the entirety of that list is irrelevant to a chef's job.
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lol all cooking involves mathematics and even algebra.
if you don't know this then you don't cook that often.

recipes and things are all about mathematics and algebra.
 
ludin said:
lol all cooking involves mathematics and even algebra.
if you don't know this then you don't cook that often.
recipes and things are all about mathematics and algebra.
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We're not talking about basic algebra here.

Please tell me how often a chef need to know how to deal with quadratic equations.

When you're cooking how often do you come across an equation for a circle and need to plot it on a graph?
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Mind you we're not talking about basic algebra.

We're specifically talking about college algebra.

But, yes I agree with the general idea that a chef doesn't need to know how to handle quadratic equations or how to plot a circle given its equation to be a good chef.
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he does if he is wanting to pitch his restaurant to a bank for loan. he is going to need to know how to fill in charts.
he is going to need to know how to calculate dimensions of the stuff he wants to bake.

https://prezi.com/udcgh6w9l5oj/culinary-arts-algebra/
 
ludin said:
he does if he is wanting to pitch his restaurant to a bank for loan. he is going to need to know how to fill in charts.
he is going to need to know how to calculate dimensions of the stuff he wants to bake.
https://prezi.com/udcgh6w9l5oj/culinary-arts-algebra/
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Go through the list I provided and figure out how much of that list is needed to be a good chef.
Then go through the items you've chosen and tell me which one cannot be taught or learned in a maths course other than college Algebra

I am curious about how much of college algebra is relevant and how much of what is relevant comes only from college algebra.

If there's a great deal in college algebra which is relevant and if there's no other maths course which provides that stuff, then you have a strong point.

If there're only a few things in college algebra which are relevant, or/and there're other maths courses which also cover these relevant skills, the college algebra seems like one option among others rather than a necessity.
 
Harshaw said:
The difference, of course, is that this chancellor actually said what he said, whereas conservatives "hating higher education and critical thinking" is just your fantasy.

"Critical thinking," indeed.
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The irony of this post is considerable. For one, a majority of republicans claim that colleges do more harm than good in a recent poll. For two, what this chancellor actually said doesn't necessarily reflect on liberals in any meaningful way.
 
Erod said:
CA Educator: Algebra Is a 'Civil Rights' Issue. Get Rid Of It. | Daily Wire



Liberalism today. Wow.

If you can't pass 8th grade math, you aren't a college graduate regardless of your worthless "diploma".

Lol
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Actually, algebra is 9th grade math.

And he's really questioning whether algebra is worth making a mandatory requirement for ALL college degrees, as opposed to other math-based alternatives, even associates degrees in fields unrelated to STEM:

First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career.
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It sounds like you don't have a counter argument, you're just pointing and laughing.
 
Crovax said:
No it's not.

I do have a degree in mathematics, I don't know if that would make me an expert or taint my opinion because math has always been very easy for me.
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Mmm, yes, yes it is. Every single algebra course has its own grading criteria, test questions, and curriculum depth.

Community colleges have to meet somewhat strict accreditation standards in certain cases, in order to make their course credits transferrable to a wide range of higher universities. This means, in some cases, more breadth in addition to more depth.
 
Lutherf said:
Here's what got me -



The idea that the lack of a credential, and the algebra requirement to achieve that credential, is what's holding people back is shortsighted at best. First off, a credential is a recognition that the holder has achieved a certain level of expertise in a certain discipline. It's not supposed to be easy and, by making it easy, you decrease the value of that credential for all other holders.

Second, as an educator your goal should be to help your students find the proper path to achieve their goals. Lowering the standards is the opposite of achievement. In life we all come across tasks with which we struggle. Learning to overcome that struggle is an important step in personal growth.
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He's not suggesting "lowering the standards" but changing the standards to math classes that will better educate the students. Essentially, he's questioning whether or not algebra is a good choice for a universal requirement at college, whether or not we might have better choices. It sounds like you don't have an answer to that question.
 
Absentglare said:
Mmm, yes, yes it is. Every single algebra course has its own grading criteria, test questions, and curriculum depth.

Community colleges have to meet somewhat strict accreditation standards in certain cases, in order to make their course credits transferrable to a wide range of higher universities. This means, in some cases, more breadth in addition to more depth.
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And yet the same basic fundamental concepts that everyone needs to know regardless of circumstance
 
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