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US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:4]**

Evilroddy

Evilroddy

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A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.

.... On U.S. campuses, punishment of pro-Palestinian students for expressing criticisms of Israel is so commonplace that the Center for Constitutional Rights refers to it as “the Palestine Exception” to free speech.

But now, a group of 43 senators — 29 Republicans and 14 Democrats — wants to implement a law that would make it a felony for Americans to support the international boycott against Israel, which was launched in protest of that country’s decades-old occupation of Palestine. The two primary sponsors of the bill are Democrat Ben Cardin of Maryland and Republican Rob Portman of Ohio. Perhaps the most shocking aspect is the punishment: Anyone guilty of violating the prohibitions will face a minimum civil penalty of $250,000 and a maximum criminal penalty of $1 million and 20 years in prison.
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From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Look at who the top sponsors are;

Ben Cardin- Jewish American, #1 recipient of pro-Israel lobbyist money (bribery from Israel).

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=2006&cid=N00001955&type=I&newmem=N
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

I think this is fake news. These 43 senators know you cannot outlaw speech, and it's silly to accuse them of trying to do so.

Doesn't anyone have a bull**** meter anymore?
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

Moderator's Warning:
Folks, let me be very clear here.

I'm going to attempt to allow this to stay in *Breaking News*. What that means is that this conversation needs to be focused around the legal issues related to this breaking news story and those implications as it relates to the idea of free speech within this country. Anyone who begins to try to make this into a thread regarding Israeli/Palestinian policy or the dynamics of that relationship, rather than dealing with it from the stand point of the legal implications within the U.S., will be thread banned and given points and the thread will be moved to the Middle East forum at which point it will fall under the Martial Law ruleset of that location.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

Bad proposed law.

Bad for Americans, bad for America.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

Here is the summary of the bill. It does not match the BS in the article.

There is one summary for S.720. Bill summaries are authored by CRS.
Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (03/23/2017)

Israel Anti-Boycott Act

This bill declares that Congress: (1) opposes the United Nations Human Rights Council resolution of March 24, 2016, which urges countries to pressure companies to divest from, or break contracts with, Israel; and (2) encourages full implementation of the United States-Israel Strategic Partnership Act of 2014 through enhanced, governmentwide, coordinated U.S.-Israel scientific and technological cooperation in civilian areas.

The bill amends the Export Administration Act of 1979 to declare that it shall be U.S. policy to oppose:

requests by foreign countries to impose restrictive practices or boycotts against other countries friendly to the United States or against U.S. persons; and
restrictive trade practices or boycotts fostered or imposed by an international governmental organization, or requests to impose such practices or boycotts, against Israel.
The bill prohibits U.S. persons engaged in interstate or foreign commerce from:

requesting the imposition of any boycott by a foreign country against a country which is friendly to the United States; or
supporting any boycott fostered or imposed by an international organization, or requesting imposition of any such boycott, against Israel.
The bill amends the Export-Import Bank Act of 1945 to include as a reason for the Export-Import Bank to deny credit applications for the export of goods and services between the United States and foreign countries, opposition to policies and actions that are politically motivated and are intended to penalize or otherwise limit commercial relations specifically with citizens or residents of Israel, entities organized under the laws of Israel, or the Government of Israel.
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Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

IMO this proposal has First Amendment implications. It proposes to make one group of citizens unable to speak out about a particular issue. One might argue that it proposes to prevent that group from associating with each other.

It certainly is censorship being proposed, and demonstrates the awesome power of AIPAC in the US Congress.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Thoreau72 said:
IMO this proposal has First Amendment implications. It proposes to make one group of citizens unable to speak out about a particular issue. One might argue that it proposes to prevent that group from associating with each other.

It certainly is censorship being proposed, and demonstrates the awesome power of AIPAC in the US Congress.
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How do you get that from the summary of the bill I posted? Bill summary vs people who believe the pogy bait sprinkled out in front of them.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

chuckiechan said:
How do you get that from the summary of the bill I posted? Bill summary vs people who believe the pogy bait sprinkled out in front of them.
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I get it from the title, Israel Anti-Boycott Act, and I get it from the rest of what you posted, and what others have said. Clearly, the bill penalizes those who would boycott Israel for its actions regarding Palestine.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Thoreau72 said:
I get it from the title, Israel Anti-Boycott Act, and I get it from the rest of what you posted, and what others have said. Clearly, the bill penalizes those who would boycott Israel for its actions regarding Palestine.
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The bill violated the 1st Amendment, clearly. End of story.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Thoreau72 said:
I get it from the title, Israel Anti-Boycott Act, and I get it from the rest of what you posted, and what others have said. Clearly, the bill penalizes those who would boycott Israel for its actions regarding Palestine.
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But not individuals - organizations operating under the protection of the US government.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

I am pro-Israel, and I support the 1st Amendment.

Everyone gets to say what they want, within reasonable limitations, which this bill violates.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Aren't boycotts the punishment of bad actors?

A fundamental concept of capitalism.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

chuckiechan said:
Here is the summary of the bill. It does not match the BS in the article.
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chucklechan:

Here is the ACLU letter which lays out their objections to Israel Anti-Boycott Act and its tie in with two older acts:

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...tter_opposing_hr_1697_israel_anti-boycott.pdf

From your own summary:

The bill prohibits U.S. persons engaged in interstate or foreign commerce from:

requesting the imposition of any boycott by a foreign country against a country which is friendly to the United States;

or supporting any boycott fostered or imposed by an international organization, or requesting imposition of any such boycott, against Israel.
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Note: I changed the spacing to make the two conditions clearer.

It all hinges on what "US persons engaged in interstate or foreign commerce" is interpreted to mean. Persons include people and legal persons like corporations, governments, municipalities, etc. Anyone person money is engaged in some sort of commerce if there is a reciprocal consideration. If for example a real person (human being) sends money to support a BDS programme to another person (real or legal) in another US state or another country and receives a Pro-BDS T-shirt as a thank-you, then this proposed act could apply. However if that same person sent a similar amount of money to a programme which benefitted US-Israeli trade and received a pro-Israeli trade T-shirt then this act would not apply. Thus the state is singling out persons for certain political views while allowing other persons with different views to proceed unsanctioned.

Thus this act impinges upon freedom of speech, freedom of association (First Amendment issues) and singles out certain kinds of commerce and speech for sanction based on the manifested politics of the accused. That seems very dangerous to me.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

Correction to my above thread:

Anyone person money is engaged in some sort of commerce if there is a reciprocal consideration.
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This should have been, "Any person sending money to another is engaged in commerce if there is some reciprocal consideration involved."

Apologies for not correcting this promptly.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

I don't see this surviving a 1st Amendment challenge. Unfortunately, people will be hassled unnecessarily until it's struck down, and that will take time. Our system usually works slowly.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Part of the reason for the "punishment" of the students criticizing Israel is the fact that a lot of what is being said falls under the "hate speech" guidelines of some colleges. The article tries to overlook this point and make it sound like this is simple honest critique, when the fact is that a lot of it is what is considered "hate speech". I'm no fan of limiting speech, just because it offends someone, but if that's the standard that the colleges choose to apply, then it should be applied equitably.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

chuckiechan said:
But not individuals - organizations operating under the protection of the US government.
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It seems to me that the bottom line is that a person or organization can boycott France, and Congress can rename French Fries to Freedom Fries, a person or organization may boycott Greece, Italy or any other country for whatever reason, but one cannot boycott Israel for any reason. Blatant favoritism in the law, and that makes it illegitimate.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against Israe

chuckiechan said:
Here is the summary of the bill. It does not match the BS in the article.
Click to expand...

At the very least it calls out the UN on their actions. It teeters along the the lines of infringing on free speech and protecting against a bias. But like I said, it at least calls attention to what the UN is trying to do.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

JamesBY said:
The bill violated the 1st Amendment, clearly. End of story.
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Go ahead and believe YahooWaPo over the bill summary, at the same time believe free speech has been suspended so that no one can talk about boycotting Israel.

:roll:
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

chuckiechan said:
Go ahead and believe YahooWaPo over the bill summary, at the same time believe free speech has been suspended so that no one can talk about boycotting Israel. :roll:
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Anyone can talk about boycotting all they want. Anyone who tries to penalize that is an enemy of American civil liberties.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Here is a more fulsome treatment of the issue and some historical context by the ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/first-amendment-protects-right-boycott-israel

If this law was to be passed it would be an attack on US persons' rights (people, businesses and municipalities) to explore, communicate about and participate in boycotting Israeli and only Israeli commerce and trade. This law would not interfere with Americans who want to boycott Zimbabwe, France or Iran, but only Israel. Thus the proposed law is not a general abridgement on boycotts but is specifically targeted at boycotts organised against Israel. This thus criminalises one type of behaviour based on the political convictions of a certain group of persons, while allowing the exact same behaviour for other groups not sharing those same convictions. Therefore the law is not universal but seeks to create a particular class of felon based on person's political beliefs, convictions and ethical codes. This means the proposed law cannot be applied equally to all boycotters and thus is unlawful under the US and Common law tradition of legal universality. Thus freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of conscience and the principle of universality of law are all violated by this proposed anti-boycott law. Does protecting and promoting commerce supersede the US Constitution and the legal requirement of universality?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I have little sympathy for pro-Palestinian groups.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Renae said:
I have little sympathy for pro-Palestinian groups.
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Renae:

That's not the issue here. The issue is do you have sympathy for the US constitution and the rule of law in America?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
Renae:

That's not the issue here. The issue is do you have sympathy for the US constitution and the rule of law in America?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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We all know what the real issue here is, and I for one have little sympathy for the "protesters" their rights, views or goals. I hope they do get shut down.
 
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