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US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:4]**

Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Fweedumb in america.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Renae said:
We all know what the real issue here is, and I for one have little sympathy for the "protesters" their rights, views or goals. I hope they do get shut down.
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Renae:

So you are willing to sacrifice constitutional protections in order to shut down and muzzle people you disagree with? How would you react if other Americans, who opposed your beliefs, moved to legally muzzle you and shut down a cause you are passionate about? Would you shrug your shoulders and consent to be quiet or would you fight for your constitutionally protected rights?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

JamesBY said:
I am pro-Israel, and I support the 1st Amendment.

Everyone gets to say what they want, within reasonable limitations, which this bill violates.
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Giving material support to terrorist linked orginizations isn't protected by the 1st Amendment.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

apdst said:
Giving material support to terrorist linked orginizations isn't protected by the 1st Amendment.
Click to expand...
Says who? You? You have your opinion, nothing else. Congress would pass such a law, which will not stand up to SCOTUS scrutiny.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

chuckiechan said:
But not individuals - organizations operating under the protection of the US government.
Click to expand...

From the summary:

The bill prohibits U.S. persons engaged in interstate or foreign commerce from:
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

apdst said:
Giving material support to terrorist linked orginizations isn't protected by the 1st Amendment.
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apdst:

Boycotts don't give material support to anyone, terrorist organisations or otherwise. Boycotts withhold material support and commerce from companies, bodies or states with which the participating boycotters have a dispute or a problem. If people choose to punish Israeli businesses as a result of Israel's policies (for whatever reason) that is not giving support to terrorists.

Americans do not have a legal obligation to support even the most closely aligned foreign state when that foreign state does things that many Americans identify as ethically wrong. The notion of "my country, right or wrong" is sometimes dangerous but the implication of the new notion "their country, right or wrong" is just daft. Should American citizens be forced to financially support foreign states with which they have moral and ethical issues? Would you favour the US congress criminalising support and participation in boycotting of Saudi Arabia for its anti-democratic state, its appalling human rights record and its support for radical ideologies and terrorism? What about criminalising the boycotting of Iran? China?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
apdst:

Boycotts don't give material support to anyone, terrorist organisations or otherwise. Boycotts withhold material support and commerce from companies, bodies or states with which the participating boycotters have a dispute or a problem. If people choose to punish Israeli businesses as a result of Israel's policies (for whatever reason) that is not giving support to terrorists.

Americans do not have a legal obligation to support even the most closely aligned foreign state when that foreign state does things that many Americans identify as ethically wrong. The notion of "my country, right or wrong" is sometimes dangerous but the implication of the new notion "their country, right or wrong" is just daft. Should American citizens be forced to financially support foreign states with which they have moral and ethical issues? Would you favour the US congress criminalising support and participation in boycotting of Saudi Arabia for its anti-democratic state, its appalling human rights record and its support for radical ideologies and terrorism? What about criminalising the boycotting of Iran? China?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Evilroddy,

BDS is linked to Hamas, a terrorist orginization.

Cheers,
APDST
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

JamesBY said:
Says who? You? You have your opinion, nothing else. Congress would pass such a law, which will not stand up to SCOTUS scrutiny.
Click to expand...

Says the law.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Sheesh. I think the Israelis have shown that they can take care of themselves. They don't need U.S. social behavior laws to do it.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

fmw said:
Sheesh. I think the Israelis have shown that they can take care of themselves. They don't need U.S. social behavior laws to do it.
Click to expand...

I don't know the exact answer, but do you suppose AIPAC had anything to do with writing and promoting this Bill? It's a safe bet that Israeli interests PROMOTE this Bill. Is that Israel "taking care of itself?"
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

apdst said:
Evilroddy,

BDS is linked to Hamas, a terrorist orginization.

Cheers,
APDST
Click to expand...

apdst:

The proposed US act is in response to the United Nations and the European organized and sponsored boycotts which gearing up now. Hamas and Omar Bharghouti are not the reason that the act is being considered. I think its a stretch to argue that the UN and the EU are terrorist organizations. While Hamas supports the BDS movement, the movement itself was founded by Palestinians who wanted to pressure Israel in a non-violent way. Omar Bharghoti does not support violence and terrorism despite being mistreated by Israel for founding and driving forward the movement.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Thoreau72 said:
I don't know the exact answer, but do you suppose AIPAC had anything to do with writing and promoting this Bill? It's a safe bet that Israeli interests PROMOTE this Bill. Is that Israel "taking care of itself?"
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Thoreau72:

The sources of the legislation is an interesting one considering that the sponsors of the bills have publicly admitted that they were not aware of the stiff civil and criminal penalties of the bills through tie-ins with two other acts mentioned in the ACLU letter and The Intercept article. However, given the sensitivity of the topic, I will steer clear of discussing AIPAC's role in this the creation of this proposed legislation. Personally, I would prefer we all stick to the legal issues of the two proposed acts and (somewhat ironically given the name of this site) avoid the politics surrounding its creation and implementation. Otherwise the thread may be in jeopardy as per the mod warning in post # 4.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Thoreau72 said:
I don't know the exact answer, but do you suppose AIPAC had anything to do with writing and promoting this Bill? It's a safe bet that Israeli interests PROMOTE this Bill. Is that Israel "taking care of itself?"
Click to expand...

I don't know and I wouldn't say it is not a good example Israel taking care of itself.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
Thoreau72:

The sources of the legislation is an interesting one considering that the sponsors of the bills have publicly admitted that they were not aware of the stiff civil and criminal penalties of the bills through tie-ins with two other acts mentioned in the ACLU letter and The Intercept article. However, given the sensitivity of the topic, I will steer clear of discussing AIPAC's role in this the creation of this proposed legislation. Personally, I would prefer we all stick to the legal issues of the two proposed acts and (somewhat ironically given the name of this site) avoid the politics surrounding its creation and implementation. Otherwise the thread may be in jeopardy as per the mod warning in post # 4.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

All the better it seems, as one would think the sponsor of a bill would actually make himself aware of the penalties associated with the bill he sponsors. But maybe I'm a hopeless romantic. :mrgreen:

Nonetheless, it still appears that who actually wrote the bill is important, since it works against the First Amendment and other principles, it is not a worthy bill. IMO, issues are as sensitive as we make them. Bad men have long used the legislative process to advance harmful agenda. We are human, after all.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

Evilroddy said:
A chilling article by Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept regarding the BDS Movement and American Government efforts to criminalise it.



From:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19...-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

Is it wise to create a law which prohibits US citizens and foreigners in the USA from participating in a movement which enables those people participating from withholding their investment and patronage to a foreign state which those people believe is violating their personal ethical code? Can one investor/consumer not advise other investor/consumers to not invest in what they consider to be an immoral enterprise? Can the US state criminalise the choice by consumers and investors to withhold support to the Israeli state and economy? Is this proposed law attempting to criminalise a non-action rather than an action? Finally, why are the penalties for participating in the BDS Movement so high? Many murderers face less sanctions under US law.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion civil and limited to the legal issues and implications of creating such a law. The morality or immorality of Israeli policy is not the question here. What is at issue is the freedom of consumers and investors to act in accordance with their own conclusions about the ethics of Israeli policy in and around Israel and their freedom to participate in a movement which may help them act or not act in accordance with their ethical compass.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...


The First Amendment says they can boycott. The First Amendment also says that those who don't want to boycott don't have to. The Courts will strike down this violation of the Constitution, but Israel will not be hurt because the vast majority of Americans support Israel and won't boycott. This, folks, is how Democracy works.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

danarhea said:
The First Amendment says they can boycott. The First Amendment also says that those who don't want to boycott don't have to. The Courts will strike down this violation of the Constitution, but Israel will not be hurt because the vast majority of Americans support Israel and won't boycott. This, folks, is how Democracy works.
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danarhea:

I hope you're right. But the courts are just human beings and are as susceptible to the biases and social pressures of society as the rest of us. The constitution is under constant attack from the self-interest and zeal of the powerful or influential. It is not a foregone certainty that the constitution will prevail. You have laid out well how democracy is supposed to work but alas democracy often falters and does not work as it is supposed to. That is the danger here. When the imperatives of commerce and liberty collide, it is liberty which often succumbs in the contest which follows.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: US Lawmakers Seek to Criminally Outlaw Support for Boycott Campaign Against **[W:

If Voltaire was correct in noting that to discover who rules you, find out who it is you are not allowed to criticize.

If this effort succeeds, and Voltaire was correct, we will know what some of us already know, we are ruled by Israeli interests.
 
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