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Trump kills Clean Power Plan, orders agencies to ignore climate change

badfish said:
The EPA has been hijacked by cronies. They impose regulations on all and grant waivers to the favored. It's time to eliminate the entire organization. If a company pollutes your water, sue them in civil court.
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What a retarded thing to say. Would you prefer to get cancer and sue only to never collect or rather live a longer healthier life? Never mind.
 
Grand Mal said:
Hydro electric power is essentially solar- the sun lifts water up and dumps it on the mountains. As it runs back downhill to the ocean we make it turn turbines and generate clean juice. The heavy lifting is done by solar energy.
Actually, the next big breakthrough in clean energy isn't photovoltaic or wind, it's gonna be tidal. Think of what the motion of ocean waves do to a big, half-submerged bladder.
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Cant wait. Im all for it. And until then...people like to run their appliances. People like to run that AC. People use power. Until truly viable alternative fuel sources are in place, we use what we have...hopefully responsibly.
 
beefheart said:
Yeah, Germany has plants that do that, great stuff.
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In northern Quebec they use the tides to turn turbines but those floating schemes are really interesting. So much room for creative problem solving, and a really passive, harmless approach.
 
prometeus said:
What a retarded thing to say. Would you prefer to get cancer and sue only to never collect or rather live a longer healthier life? Never mind.
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Ask the people in that Liberal bastion of Flint MI.
 
beefheart said:
That post means nothing.

Do you know about the fact that solar gets cheaper and coal never gets cheaper?

Solar Power Will Soon Be Cheaper Than Coal

Solar and wind are becoming more efficient, coal isn't.

Innovation kills inefficient.

Oh, and you don't think your energy hasn't been subsidized? Where I live there are 2 power companies, each is granted a guaranteed profit by the state. Even when more and more customers go solar. How crazy is that?
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Solar power already is quite cheap to the point of being cheaper than coal under certain circumstances. The problem is more that the infrastructure it requires is costly at present. It seems also that part of the infrastructure might be as oe more environmentally expensive as that it wants to replace.
 
prometeus said:
What a retarded thing to say. Would you prefer to get cancer and sue only to never collect or rather live a longer healthier life? Never mind.
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Let me guess, you are a crony supporter?

I choose to do business with companies that make clean products and if we all did so the companies would cater to the concerned consumer. Do you support companies that engage in environmentally unsafe practices? Are you a responsible consumer?
 
Grand Mal said:
In northern Quebec they use the tides to turn turbines but those floating schemes are really interesting. So much room for creative problem solving, and a really passive, harmless approach.
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There is some interesting stuff going on in Hawaii. Elon Musk just built a solar plant on Kauai with his new industrial battery backups. Also, the island of Lanai, which is privately owned by Larry Ellison, is going to be run fully from renewable energy, it should be interesting to see how it works. On the Big Island, there is so much residential solar, and it is a great place to put some large scale plants....an awful lot of lava fields that can be used.
 
Nilly said:
Again, it's a nascent technology. Companies go bankrupt. That's normal.



As I've said, I'm far more interested in utility scale solar than I am residential. Residential is a completely personal decision that you may or may not want to do depending on various environmental/economic factors around your home (mortgage paid off, planning on moving, lots of shade etc etc etc). Even when I do buy (I'm 25) I don't know whether I will use residential scale solar. But that's not what I'm plumming for here.

Everything I've showed you (soft costs, LCOE etc) is in regards to utility scale solar.



There are many sources for that same story, and I was just giving a lesser known piece of information. Do you disagree that Trump has called climate change a hoax by the chinese? Do you think that having such a man in power bodes well for solar companies? Do you not think that big oil have cemented an incredibly powerful place in government (*cough* Tillerson *cough*)



Yeah except what have you provided to back that up? A 2004 (lol) blog and a website saying that solar has 'disadvantages' (errrrrrmm no ****, everything has disadvantages). Meanwhile, I'm providing LCOE's from numerous sources (the solar source (that you might consider potentially biased I guess) I provided actually provides a higher LCOE than the EIA) and cost breakdowns. If you actually read the LCOE estimates I showed you you'll see that the dollar values are there and they're competitive with, and often lower than, coal, especially clean coal. Thing is, the energy industry is one of the biggest out there, and that means that it's resistant to change. It has credits written into the tax code that don't change, unlike solar companies that have to deal with new taxes and regulations every 5 years (current ones are gonna run out in 2018/2019).

It's pretty obvious that you're emotionally invested in the idea that solar is bad. Maybe in 2010 the economics would have agreed with you but it's 2017 now and it is no longer the case. I showed you an image earlier showing the number of new builds of various energy plants, coal had zero (there were some conversions to coal). Natural gas, which is a more competitive option than coal (although I imagine solar will overtake that in the next decade or so) wind and solar have the most new builds. So companies are investing. It just takes a hell of a lot of time (and political will!) for this change to happen on a national scale.
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:lamo

You are a crack up. I and others have presented several sources that show consistently the same thing. Solar is and has been an emerging energy source that is always just a decade away from being cost effective. I have never suggested solar is bad...thats just a stupid thing for you to say. I have said it isnt cost effective and that even with massive government subsidies still remains insolvent. Ivanpah is a good example of the great promise of this beautiful mass array that was going to save the planet. Hows it doing?
BrightSource Ivanpah | Proven Leadership in Solar Energy
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...gnal-the-end-of-concentrated-solar-in-the-us/
 
VanceMack said:
:lamo

You are a crack up. I and others have presented several sources that show consistently the same thing. Solar is and has been an emerging energy source that is always just a decade away from being cost effective. I have never suggested solar is bad...thats just a stupid thing for you to say. I have said it isnt cost effective and that even with massive government subsidies still remains insolvent. Ivanpah is a good example of the great promise of this beautiful mass array that was going to save the planet. Hows it doing?
BrightSource Ivanpah | Proven Leadership in Solar Energy
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...gnal-the-end-of-concentrated-solar-in-the-us/
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300px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

1. A blog from 2004 (which wasn't correct, even in 2004) and another website showing that solar has disadvantages do not consistently show anything.

2. Ivanpah is a solar thermal generator. Not PV (photovoltaics). It works by concentrating the sun rays into heat onto water which it heats up to turn generators. They are distinct methods of energy generation. If you even read your own link you'd see that. I've mentioned photovoltaics a bunch of times in my earlier posts, which ivanpah is decidedly not.

If you're not going to even try to educate yourself on the matter then I don't really see much point furthering this debate.

joG said:
Solar power already is quite cheap to the point of being cheaper than coal under certain circumstances. The problem is more that the infrastructure it requires is costly at present. It seems also that part of the infrastructure might be as oe more environmentally expensive as that it wants to replace.
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Your first sentence is spot on. As for the last, which part of the infrastructure? How did you quantify environmental expense?
 
OpportunityCost said:
Seriously? Nearly every single person elected President has displayed narcissistic tendencies. Hell, most politicians do. Our last President had a bucket of such.
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Why is it that the go-to defense for any condemnation on the right is this dishonest deflection to an equivocation fallacy?
 
VanceMack said:
No good reason...except that it is plentiful, it works, and the mechanism is simply not in place to use Solar.

Let me ask you...is your home fully outfitted to run exclusively on solar power? Do you use it year round? Do you have AC? DO you use that?
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The amount of energy chemically stored in hydrocarbon chains is so laughably dwarfed by the output of the sun, i find the case you've built, "plentiful", to be an embarrassment.

Both solar and coal "work"- but one causes significant alterations in the composition of the atmosphere that may have the capability to make planet Earth less hospitable. "One planet, one experiment."
 
azgreg said:
Ahhh! The good old days!

p8.jpg


I miss the days when our rivers would catch on fire.

CuyahogaRiverFire1952.jpg


#MAGA!!!!!
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this is wonderful, the good old days
 
Nilly said:
View attachment 67215780

1. A blog from 2004 (which wasn't correct, even in 2004) and another website showing that solar has disadvantages do not consistently show anything.

2. Ivanpah is a solar thermal generator. Not PV (photovoltaics). It works by concentrating the sun rays into heat onto water which it heats up to turn generators. They are distinct methods of energy generation. If you even read your own link you'd see that. I've mentioned photovoltaics a bunch of times in my earlier posts, which ivanpah is decidedly not.

If you're not going to even try to educate yourself on the matter then I don't really see much point furthering this debate.



Your first sentence is spot on. As for the last, which part of the infrastructure? How did you quantify environmental expense?
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:lamo
So...home solar...no. Fail. Thermal generators which have had billions dumped into it...fail. But...Photovoltaics...boy...thats gonna be NEWS!!!

How heavily invested in Solar are you long term? How much skin do you have in the game?
 
Absentglare said:
Why is it that the go-to defense for any condemnation on the right is this dishonest deflection to an equivocation fallacy?
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Not a dishonest deflection, but simple truth. Sorry if the truth hurts.
 
Vern said:
er uh OC, 60 days in you and yours were foaming at the mouth that President Obama was born in Kenya, his BC a forgery, is a secret Muslim terrorist, the stimulus will cause hyper inflation, dollar collapse, market to zero. Being concerned about Trump's effect on climate change based on his actions and statements is more than reasonable. Looking at the complete disarray of him, his admin and the republican congress combined with his almost non-stop tantrums does not bode well for the future.
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No. I was not. Quit making ****ty terrible straw mans about what you think I believe. Your argument is one of the stupidest on the board, full of assumptions and full of fail.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Not a dishonest deflection, but simple truth. Sorry if the truth hurts.
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Not really, it's such a pathetic defense i had a hard time even using it to defend Hillary using a private server. Maybe that's just my pesky integrity getting in the way.
 
Threegoofs said:
I dont believe the issue was policy at all here. It was a term that you blithely ignored.

And Im fairly certain that the bad ideas emanating from the GOP are bad on their face. Just look at the joke of a health care bill, which was supported by approximately nobody. Even the House GOP who would have voted for it knew the Senate would rip it up and create a new one.
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That doesn't mean attacking Trump is any kind of valid argument for discussing energy policy.
 
VanceMack said:
:lamo
So...home solar...no. Fail. Thermal generators which have had billions dumped into it...fail. But...Photovoltaics...boy...thats gonna be NEWS!!!

How heavily invested in Solar are you long term? How much skin do you have in the game?
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doublefacepalm.png


Wow, so you come along and bring up a completely irrelevant energy source and when I shut you down it's suddenly my problem for talking about it? I've been very clear about what I've been talking about this entire time. It's not my fault if you can't, or won't, understand it. Case in point:

Home solar is photovoltaics. It's just small scale, so really irrelevant to the discussion when it comes to powering the grid. Home solar won't replace coal plants anymore than wood fired burners in peoples basements. So no, PV isn't 'news'. It's the same technology that we've always had for solar (and what most people think when they say solar), it's just been getting steadily better and better and cheaper and cheaper. To the point where now, in terms of energy generation and hardware it's cheaper than most sources of coal.

I have some money invested in a couple of specific solar companies, as well as a few clean energy specific etf's. I also have money invested in other types of energy. I generally invest to make money, not save the planet. What of it? If I didn't, you'd accuse me of not putting my money where my mouth is.
 
Absentglare said:
Not really, it's such a pathetic defense i had a hard time even using it to defend Hillary using a private server. Maybe that's just my pesky integrity getting in the way.
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Its a common characteristic of people in public office. Original point stands, attacking Trump personally is no argument for discussion of energy policy.
 
lurchadams said:
Great article, I like this quote:
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Yep, shows just how much damage Obama's EPA did to the Coal industry.

Thank God Trump killed all those job killing regulations, right ?
Ive never seen this many people so angry over so many Americans getting their livelyhoods back

Guess the Lefts puts party over Country afterall
 
Nilly said:
doublefacepalm.png


Wow, so you come along and bring up a completely irrelevant energy source and when I shut you down it's suddenly my problem for talking about it? I've been very clear about what I've been talking about this entire time. It's not my fault if you can't, or won't, understand it. Case in point:

Home solar is photovoltaics. It's just small scale, so really irrelevant to the discussion when it comes to powering the grid. Home solar won't replace coal plants anymore than wood fired burners in peoples basements. So no, PV isn't 'news'. It's the same technology that we've always had for solar (and what most people think when they say solar), it's just been getting steadily better and better and cheaper and cheaper. To the point where now, in terms of energy generation and hardware it's cheaper than most sources of coal.

I have some money invested in a couple of specific solar companies, as well as a few clean energy specific etf's. I also have money invested in other types of energy. I generally invest to make money, not save the planet. What of it? If I didn't, you'd accuse me of not putting my money where my mouth is.
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:lamo Home solar...PV...despite the massive available subsidies...is not proving to be economically feasible (not that you would know because its not like you are buying the equipment) but you werent talking about home solar costs...just those big arrays. And you dont want to talk about the network of thermal Solar collectors that have had billions invested in them and that have failed. You probably dont wantn to talk about he history of solar panels that are failing ofter just few years as opposed to the 25 year projections. ts all sunshine and lollipops...and THATS why the solar industry, despite 8 years of government restrictions on coal and massive investments...is financially volatile.
If we are being honest for a second? I dont believe for a second you have a penny in the game..BUT...if you do...at the rate of failure you may want to rethink that 'investment'. Just sayin.
And again...for he record...you have never heard me say I am opposed to green energy development and employment. But we arent 'there' yet.
 
Fenton said:
Yep, shows just how much damage Obama's EPA did to the Coal industry.

Thank God Trump killed all those job killing regulations, right ?
Ive never seen this many people so angry over so many Americans getting their livelyhoods back

Guess the Lefts puts party over Country afterall
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You're dreaming if you think that coal mining jobs are coming back. Coal mining companies are automating the process - using machinery, rather than people.
 
lurchadams said:
You're dreaming if you think that coal mining jobs are coming back. Coal mining companies are automating the process - using machinery, rather than people.
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Lol !! Oh please, you people are stuck in the past. Coal mining hasnt been done by miners with pick axes who sent one tram at a time up dirty mine shaft for decades. Its been automated for some time.
But this narrative that we've sudddenly warped into a future where automation has complelty done away with labor in mines or anywhere else is all in your heads. In fact, the automoation false narrative grew out of the disastrous effects of Obama's presidency on American workers. It was just another attempt to explain away job losses and a anemic economy without pinning the blame where it belonged. On Obama and his disastorus healthcare bill and his job killing regulations.

Where was this ridiculous narrative back when Obama bailed out the American auto manufaturers ?? Didnt hear you people claiming those jobs were lost to automation back then.

Some Miners Are Going Back to Work in Coal Country
DETAILS: Some Miners Are Going Back to Work in Coal Country | Fox News Insider
 
Fenton said:
Lol !! Oh please, you people are stuck in the past. Coal mining hasnt been done by miners with pick axes who sent one tram at a time up dirty mine shaft for decades. Its been automated for some time.
But this narrative that we've sudddenly warped into a future where automation has complelty done away with labor in mines or anywhere else is all in your heads. In fact, the automoation false narrative grew out of the disastrous effects of Obama's presidency on American workers. It was just another attempt to explain away job losses and a anemic economy without pinning the blame where it belonged. On Obama and his disastorus healthcare bill and his job killing regulations.

Where was this ridiculous narrative back when Obama bailed out the American auto manufaturers ?? Didnt hear you people claiming those jobs were lost to automation back then.

Some Miners Are Going Back to Work in Coal Country
DETAILS: Some Miners Are Going Back to Work in Coal Country | Fox News Insider
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When someone starts off their post with "you people" I stop reading.
 
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