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With a 10-day supply of opioids, 1 in 5 become long-term users

SouthernDemocrat said:
In August I was our riding my road bike over lunch. While stopped at a stop light a woman who was looking at her cell phone plowed into me at 40 mph from behind. I work up in ICU a few hours later with a broken back, broken ribs, shattered scapula, a gash on my forehead exposing my skull, nerve damage, muscle damage throughout my body, even tire marks on the backs of my legs. They had me on IV dilaudid. I had them take me off of it after 24 hours. When I got out of the hospital they wrote me a prescription for 3 weeks of narcotics. I never filled it and instead would just take 2 Aleve every 12 hours. At first I was in so much pain I could not stand without assistance. I knew though that I would be in pain for while until I healed and there was nothing for it other than just to deal with it. I knew that I would be in pain for long enough that if I tried to mask it with narcotic pain killers, I would risk getting addicted to them. Moreover, I knew that narcotics dull your pain tolerance. So I dealt with it. I pushed myself, and according to the doctors I healed at a miraculous rate.

Humanity has been around for over 200,000 a years. We have only had narcotics for the last 200 years or so. Before that we just dealt with the pain until we healed. I am not saying there is not a role for narcotics. For 2 or 3 days after severe trauma or a surgery, they can certainly make a big difference. However, they are not for chronic pain.
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Actually narcotic like pain medication has been around for much longer then 200 years. The plants that opoid medications come from have grown wild probably as long as man has been around and were in use for medicine as well as the usual number of idiots getting high.
 
My question is where does the assault on personal freedom end? At what point do we say society and government has reached the point that they no longer have the right to control the choices of supposedly free people? There are always going to be people that suffer in a free society simply because not everyone is going to make good decisions that lead to a prosperous life. I find it terrifying that we live in a society that openly calls for the government and organizations to make all of our choices for us due to the fear that they or someone else can not handle the responsibility of their own choices.
 
Nap said:
My question is where does the assault on personal freedom end? At what point do we say society and government has reached the point that they no longer have the right to control the choices of supposedly free people? There are always going to be people that suffer in a free society simply because not everyone is going to make good decisions that lead to a prosperous life. I find it terrifying that we live in a society that openly calls for the government and organizations to make all of our choices for us due to the fear that they or someone else can not handle the responsibility of their own choices.
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Laws including drug laws are in place to protect the liberty of everyone in the community, and that includes those who dont want their communities inundated with harmful drugs and people who are addicted to those drugs.

When it comes to the consequences of addiction, addicts arent the only ones who suffer for the choices they make.

The Libertarian definition of Liberty seems to be pretty one sided. Its " Liberty " as it aplies to their beliefs and opinions.
 
Fenton said:
Laws including drug laws are in place to protect the liberty of everyone in the community, and that includes those who dont want their communities inundated with harmful drugs and people who are addicted to those drugs.

When it comes to the consequences of addiction, addicts arent the only ones who suffer for the choices they make.

The Libertarian definition of Liberty seems to be pretty one sided. Its " Liberty " as it aplies to their beliefs and opinions.
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I understand that you and many others do not mind giving up this freedom to others. My question is where does it stop? Just as a thought experiment, I want you to think about everything you would like for the government to control and all of the freedoms you would give up to live within that society. Now that you have reached that place, do you honestly believe that the rest of society is ever going to stop pushing for more and more government control over your life? As a Conservative you should know all to well what I am talking about. There were will always be people suffering and always an agenda for people to push until the government controls every aspect of our lives. As long as people put the priority of people suffering over the value of freedom then that is the eventual result. This is why my personal opinion that the government should be responsible for ultimately insuring that we remain as free as possible, while society (churches and charitable organizations) be relied upon to aid those in need.
 
ObamacareFail said:
Actually narcotic like pain medication has been around for much longer then 200 years. The plants that opoid medications come from have grown wild probably as long as man has been around and were in use for medicine as well as the usual number of idiots getting high.
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Yes, but not nearly widely available. You didn't have a 24 billion dollar narcotic prescription drug industry with hunter gatherer man.
 
ObamacareFail said:
That is what I mostly do. I have a high tolerance for pain. I have been prescribed opioid pain killers post operative pain and after a couple days, thrown out the remainder of the pills. I had a generous amount of morphine for a few hours after a motor vehicle accident with chest trauma injuries and then very little. However I cannot speak for those dealing with chronic pain that does not go away without constant pain medication. And yes, some of them may become addicted. However most of the people who become chronically addicted are the idiots who take pain medication for recreational use.
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As was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Nonsense. Having had multiple orthopedic surgeries (with opioid pain medication prescribed during recovery and no addiction/dependence problems) it is definitely not better for (at least?) 80% of us.
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As I pointed out here I know what dealing with pain is like: https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...-5-become-long-term-users.html#post1067004223


But to repeat myself, as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.

Narcotics are for very short term pain after surgeries or severe trauma. They are not for treating chronic pain and that misuse of them is why we have such a opiate addiction epidemic in this country.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
As I pointed out here I know what dealing with pain is like: https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...-5-become-long-term-users.html#post1067004223


But to repeat myself, as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.

Narcotics are for very short term pain after surgeries or severe trauma. They are not for treating chronic pain and that misuse of them is why we have such a opiate addiction epidemic in this country.
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Can not confirm....they definitely work for chronic pain.

And I've treated many patients with them with good results long term.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
As was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.
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While they are not meant nor effective at curing chronic pain, they are most definitely effective at improving quality of life while under the effects of such pain. It would have been a living hell for me had the doctor not given me a prescription of oxy while dealing with my back surgery. Are there people that abuse the system simply to maintain a high? Yes, but for people that have legitimate reasons for taking such pain medications it makes going through painful experiences much more tolerable.
 
calamity said:
I was amazed at how readily doctors prescribe opiates. No wonder so many people get hooked.
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Yes, me too. My mother in law had total hip surgery, I told the Doc she does poorly on opiates (makes her loopy and a zombie), and on the way out the door we were handed a prescription for 45 of them. What was more shocking is it cost (as I recall) $2.37 for those pills. Opiate addiction is a big deal around my area, and part of it is the casual attitude local docs have to them for what really isn't bad pain at all. I don't understand it, really.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
As I pointed out here I know what dealing with pain is like: https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...-5-become-long-term-users.html#post1067004223


But to repeat myself, as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.

Narcotics are for very short term pain after surgeries or severe trauma. They are not for treating chronic pain and that misuse of them is why we have such a opiate addiction epidemic in this country.
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That (bolded above) is what I said that my personal experience was - no more and no less. Are there those that "legally" keep folks supplied for "recreational" use? Of course, there are but that was not my point and you well know it. The issue is not all or nothing - there is opiate use and then there is opiate abuse.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
As I pointed out here I know what dealing with pain is like: https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...-5-become-long-term-users.html#post1067004223


But to repeat myself, as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, narcotics are not meant or even particularly effective for chronic pain. No other nation prescribes them for chronic pain like we do. Anywhere else, you get them for short term severe pain after surgery or severe trauma, and that is it other than for terminal cancer patients. This is why we have 5% of the world's population, yet 80% of the narcotics prescriptions. Some 300 million narcotic prescriptions were written in 2015 alone. It is a 24 billion dollar industry for the pharmaceutical companies that make them.

The majority of people that use narcotic pain killers regularly long term are addicted to them whether they know it or not. That pain they experience when coming off them is not the pain from their old injuries, its withdrawal symptoms. The majority of the people addicted to narcotics in this country are people getting them legally prescribed.

Narcotics are for very short term pain after surgeries or severe trauma. They are not for treating chronic pain and that misuse of them is why we have such a opiate addiction epidemic in this country.
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Are you sure?

According to the large, annually repeated and representative National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 75 percent of all opioid misuse starts with people using medication that wasn’t prescribed for them—obtained from a friend, family member or dealer
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https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...lem-but-pain-prescriptions-are-not-the-cause/
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
In August I was our riding my road bike over lunch. While stopped at a stop light a woman who was looking at her cell phone plowed into me at 40 mph from behind. I work up in ICU a few hours later with a broken back, broken ribs, shattered scapula, a gash on my forehead exposing my skull, nerve damage, muscle damage throughout my body, even tire marks on the backs of my legs. They had me on IV dilaudid. I had them take me off of it after 24 hours. When I got out of the hospital they wrote me a prescription for 3 weeks of narcotics. I never filled it and instead would just take 2 Aleve every 12 hours. At first I was in so much pain I could not stand without assistance. I knew though that I would be in pain for while until I healed and there was nothing for it other than just to deal with it. I knew that I would be in pain for long enough that if I tried to mask it with narcotic pain killers, I would risk getting addicted to them. Moreover, I knew that narcotics dull your pain tolerance. So I dealt with it. I pushed myself, and according to the doctors I healed at a miraculous rate.

Humanity has been around for over 200,000 a years. We have only had narcotics for the last 200 years or so. Before that we just dealt with the pain until we healed. I am not saying there is not a role for narcotics. For 2 or 3 days after severe trauma or a surgery, they can certainly make a big difference. However, they are not for chronic pain.
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I hate that you got hit like that and am glad you appear to be mending well. Have you been able to start riding again? To be honest, I'm not sure I'd be anxious to get back on the road. Stories like yours are rare but they sometimes make me want to give up road cycling entirely and buy a mountain bike and take my chances with oak trees and not morons on the road.

When I started riding a road bike a few years ago, I worried most about the rednecks who don't much like sharing the road with cyclists and scream something or gun the engine as they pass, but soon learned they're harmless - annoying, but they're not going to hit you. The few really close calls were by people who I'm nearly positive were on their f'ing cell phones and not paying attention and I don't think ever even saw me, and I try pretty hard to be seen.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Are you sure?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...lem-but-pain-prescriptions-are-not-the-cause/
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I don't know the answer and am not criticizing you for linking to that article, but that whole analysis didn't read genuine to me. I also tried to follow the link in part of what you quoted - that 75% of addictions start with people using meds not prescribed - and it might be right but her link does not demonstrate that at all. I tried to follow another that said 90% of all addictions start with teens or young adults - again could be true - but her link didn't get you there, it landed on a page with dozens of links. Those are red flags to me for any author because you can't know if they're just sloppy or dishonest, but neither is a good sign.
 
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JasperL said:
I don't know the answer and am not criticizing you for linking to that article, but that whole analysis didn't read genuine to me. I also tried to follow the link in part of what you quoted - that 75% of addictions start with people using meds not prescribed - and it might be right but her link does not demonstrate that at all. I tried to follow another that said 90% of all addictions start with teens or young adults - again could be true - but her link didn't get you there, it landed on a page with dozens of links. Those are red flags to me for any author because you can't know if they're just sloppy or dishonest, but neither is a good sign.
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I said today that I am having a great deal of trouble coming up with information on how people get addicted, which is a bad sign. This is looking like yet one more place were we choose to fly blind, where we dont bother to put science to work to find out what is going on, which tends to mean that we dont want to know.
 
Nap said:
He didn't lose his family and eventually his life due to Oxy. He lost it all because of his own actions. In just about every issue in America people jump to blame everything but the person that acted irresponsibly, it amazes me sometimes to see just how much people hate freedom in America.
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That's IMO a simplistic and unfair way to look at a very complex problem. At the end of the day, sure, the person taking the drugs made his or her own bed. However, it's pretty well established that addiction has a large genetic component to it, and I've seen studies that show between 5% and 20% of those getting a legal prescription for opiates become addicts. I'm having trouble with a good analogy, so I'll say it's sort of like handing a loaded gun to a depressed person and blaming them for killing themselves. That's correct, but doctors ought to know better than effectively giving their patients loaded guns that they know from studies will result in up to 1 in 5 becoming an addict. Even 1 in 20 is a f'ing gigantic downside risk that in any other drug might get it pulled from the market entirely.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I said today that I am having a great deal of trouble coming up with information on how people get addicted, which is a bad sign. This is looking like yet one more place were we choose to fly blind, where we dont bother to put science to work to find out what is going on, which tends to mean that we dont want to know.
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I agree and I hate that I do. I've read several investigative reports on opiates, and Oxy in particular, and it's pretty shocking what we've allowed to happen. Among them are pharmacies in crap parts of town that are seeing oxy sales 100 times normal and we don't have the systems to track that crap and shut it down, immediately. If we cared, it would happen because the data is electronic and easily compiled. The only thing that makes sense is guys in suits spending a lot of money to make sure we don't care. I'm not normally this cynical but with opiates, I just can't explain our approach any other way.

At any rate, when I read stuff like you linked, I don't trust it because it reads like what an Oxy lobbyist would put out - don't blame the legal use, it's all a bunch of kids getting it from friends. Keep them prescriptions ROLLING!
 
Nap said:
So in your own story the actions of the Doctor and the Patient seem to have been the issue. I'm curious if there is any legal action the wife can make against the Doctor since she alerted him to the issue and he continued to prescribe them. I could be wrong but I thought there was some laws against situations like you described.

As for the benefits of Oxy, for my self the improvement on quality of life while under extreme circumstances of pain is quite the benefit.
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that is what people hooked on the drug say all the time.
 
JasperL said:
I agree and I hate that I do. I've read several investigative reports on opiates, and Oxy in particular, and it's pretty shocking what we've allowed to happen. Among them are pharmacies in crap parts of town that are seeing oxy sales 100 times normal and we don't have the systems to track that crap and shut it down, immediately. If we cared, it would happen because the data is electronic and easily compiled. The only thing that makes sense is guys in suits spending a lot of money to make sure we don't care. I'm not normally this cynical but with opiates, I just can't explain our approach any other way.

At any rate, when I read stuff like you linked, I don't trust it because it reads like what an Oxy lobbyist would put out - don't blame the legal use, it's all a bunch of kids getting it from friends. Keep them prescriptions ROLLING!
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The feminists for example have had great success keeping the funding shut down towards science for stuff that they dont want proven, because they either know or fear that the results (assuming that the science is good and honest, which sure aint a sure thing in recent years) would undercut the story they tell as they drive their agenda. I dont know that Big Pharma has that kind of pull, but dang they sure do spend a ton of money selling their products and agenda. After spreading enough money around for long enough doctors now can be trusted to not get in the way if Big Pharma.....maybe they have had the pull to keep science from finding out that this outbreak of opioid/heroin epidemic is their fault primary, by selling way more of these drugs to America than is good for us, and that they dont care because they are part of the modern crap class of elites who have so ruined America and when there is money to be taken......

Oh Wait, I am going into one of my other hobby horses....

I'll stop now.
 
A little story that I found online a few weeks back that I found interesting and find interesting re this thread. I will throw it out there because maybe someone else thinks same.

So there was this young 50's guy, who had a stretch of getting fired from two jobs and was unemployable basically....had a rough time of it you can suspect but maybe too he is kinda a loser sort as well...this is not really explained.....and his brother in law turns him on to opioids as a coping tool. He likes it a lot, his days are much better, and has confidence which I never knew was a selling point here but maybe it was just him. Ends up dead in less than ten years as his body fails.

I really do wonder how much what we see here is failure of hope and failure of life based, that if it were not this that people do to escape that it would be something else, that maybe this is as hopeless as is the idea of taking away guns to prevent suicide, because once people decide to go they are going to go, they'll just take another tool to do it if they have to. I am not sure how much I support trying to deal with drug abuse by making it hard for patients to get painkillers. I need to see a lot more information than what I currently know.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
Well I have known a lot of pill heads over the years and that pain is what everyone of them experienced when they didn't have it.
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Opiates mess with your head and your brain tells you it needs more and you will say anything to get it. That is how addiction works. Most pill heads fear "getting sick" more that most anything.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
A little story that I found online a few weeks back that I found interesting and find interesting re this thread. I will throw it out there because maybe someone else thinks same.

So there was this young 50's guy, who had a stretch of getting fired from two jobs and was unemployable basically....had a rough time of it you can suspect but maybe too he is kinda a loser sort as well...this is not really explained.....and his brother in law turns him on to opioids as a coping tool. He likes it a lot, his days are much better, and has confidence which I never knew was a selling point here but maybe it was just him. Ends up dead in less than ten years as his body fails.

I really do wonder how much what we see here is failure of hope and failure of life based, that if it were not this that people do to escape that it would be something else, that maybe this is as hopeless as is the idea of taking away guns to prevent suicide, because once people decide to go they are going to go, they'll just take another tool to do it if they have to. I am not sure how much I support trying to deal with drug abuse by making it hard for patients to get painkillers. I need to see a lot more information than what I currently know.
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You have no clue how suicide or addiction works. They are illnesses that can often be cured. Not logical "thought out" acts of destruction. Here are some stories from some of the 80% of suicide "survivors" that go on to live healthy vibrant lives. Learn something.

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/what-is-life-like-after-attempting-suicide-979
 
JasperL said:
That's IMO a simplistic and unfair way to look at a very complex problem. At the end of the day, sure, the person taking the drugs made his or her own bed. However, it's pretty well established that addiction has a large genetic component to it, and I've seen studies that show between 5% and 20% of those getting a legal prescription for opiates become addicts. I'm having trouble with a good analogy, so I'll say it's sort of like handing a loaded gun to a depressed person and blaming them for killing themselves. That's correct, but doctors ought to know better than effectively giving their patients loaded guns that they know from studies will result in up to 1 in 5 becoming an addict. Even 1 in 20 is a f'ing gigantic downside risk that in any other drug might get it pulled from the market entirely.
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I completely agree that it is an over simplistic view to a complex issue. The same goes for simply saying that the problem is opioids. My view is if people are going to just break it down to the point of blaming the drug rather than the individuals abusing them then ultimately it is more accurate to say they fault lies more with the person abusing the drug than the drug itself.

People need to be educated on the results of taking stronger medications and the potential results and side effects. If they choose to take on that risk than that is truly on them. We live in a modern era where ignorance of the potential dangers of taking opioids are incredibly rare.
 
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