‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapping

bubbabgone · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

JasperL said:
If I call a terrorist in Syria, and that call is recorded, is that the same thing as having all my calls to anyone wiretapped? Obviously no. Point is, it depends.

I asked if it would effectively be the same if the calls were then illegally disclosed.

I assume you mean to the press, and if so, yes. If disclosed within the IC, obviously no, that's why we wiretap people, and we get FISA warrants to listen in on Americans, or at least people in the U.S., so that people can know what was said by whom, including the U.S. person who was a party to the conversation.

I meant whoever disclosed it to the press or anyone not authorized to have it.
And FISA is supposed to be used for Foreign surveillance.

Again, that would depend on what was said, disclosed to whom, etc. If the acting AG disclosed it to appropriate members of the Trump WH as has been reported, I assume no problem. To the press, seems obviously a crime to me.

Doesn't depend on anything. The names of an innocent who was caught on a wiretap should be redacted. They call it minimization.
And yes, disclosure was a crime.
btw ... Since we know there was no Trump/Russia collusion does it look like the press is newly focused on those crimes?

Many people for many reasons, obviously, including the Pence office, but also including members of the permanent IC or other career employees who oppose Flynn

.

Yes. It continues to be a politically motivated attack against Trump.

cuban smokes · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
Yes, I have no doubt that 10s of millions of perpetually butthurt HRCs supporters are ignoring anything and everything that compromises their limited world views.

Including the existence of FISA warrants, phone transcrips, or the fact that contents of Trumps calls to World leaders were leaked, meetings in Trump tower were leaked and even Hillary's tweet that mentions Trums server being hacked.

These 10s of millions of Americans put party over Country, and given the level of anger, hostility and blind devotion some have some of these people have exibited, chances are they just dont possess the emotional maturity to accept any truth that contradicts their ideology

The evidence is there, there are phone tanscripts according to the Democrats and leaked calls.

Like I said; Don Cheeto boy is the one that made the accusations

Don Cheeto boy is the one that needs to clear the air concerning his accusations by growing some balls & demonstrating his evidence for his accusations, period

Oh, that's right; WE all know that Don Cheeto boy has passed the buck ALL his life ............... notice I did not say 'adult' life, because Don Cheeto boy never grew up

Pretty sad when America has a President that passes the buck more often than he passes gas ...............

JasperL · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
Lol !!!

Wait a minute, youre saying that the investigative agency that tapped the line needed to leak the call and Flynns name to the Media and to the public to better understand the foreign intelligence in their own report ??

Really ?? You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right ?
You actually think public discolure in and of itself is a requirement for the better understanding of intelligence gathered during a covert FISA investigation. Unfrikenbelieble.

Give me a break Fenton - you just moved the goal posts off the field and into the stands. Let's review:

Me:

So let me get this straight - if the wiretap finds Flynn discussing sanctions with Russia, and making policy, and Flynn is on record saying those calls involved something else, it's NOT appropriate for the IC to share that with the Trump WH? Do the rules prohibit that disclosure? If they do, I'd like to see someone in the know discussing it.

You responded:

As soon as the Govt agency thats doing covert intel recognizes that a American citizen is also being tapped along with a foreign diplomat through a FISA investigation, a process known as " minimization " has to be followed to protect that Americans privacy, identity and speech."

And then you link to an article that contradicts you - thanks for that.

Now you're talking about leaks that I've said several times on this thread are obviously (likely) illegal. That's unrelated to "minimization" procedures, which you know or are again being willfully ignorant about so you can ramble about Obama!!!

Flynns name was leaked because this was a Political hatchet job and part of a larger attempt by the Obama administration and the Democrats to undermine a Democratically elected President and his agenda.

That's possible and it's also possible Pence's office, who was briefed by the acting AG on Flynn's calls and presumably handed the transcripts, are the ones who leaked the conversation in a power struggle. We know Pence was furious with Flynn and he was tossed over stuff that is likely not illegal (was legal).

And if not Pence or his office, we have no idea who leaked it. Trump has burned some bridges with the IC on many occasions, and he's faced significant opposition from retired State and intelligence people from BOTH parties. So what evidence do you have it was Obama political appointees who leaked that stuff? None....

JasperL · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

bubbabgone said:
I asked if it would effectively be the same if the calls were then illegally disclosed.

You didn't say "illegally" or say disclosed to whom. What I was getting at is there is no requirement to use minimization procedures if the content of the call is the point of the surveillance. And leaking classified info is obviously illegal unless perhaps by the Pres or someone he authorizes.

I meant whoever disclosed it to the press or anyone not authorized to have it.
And FISA is supposed to be used for Foreign surveillance.

I agree on the illegal leaks, but Flynn talking to the Russian ambassador IS "foreign surveillance."

Doesn't depend on anything. The names of an innocent who was caught on a wiretap should be redacted. They call it minimization.

See this Lawfare article Fenton cited earlier. https://lawfareblog.com/treatment-flynns-phone-calls-complies-fisa-minimization-procedures

Flynn's name wouldn't need to be redacted under minimization procedures.

btw ... Since we know there was no Trump/Russia collusion does it look like the press is newly focused on those crimes?

We don't actually know that. I don't know what you mean by 'those crimes.' Which crimes by whom? If the leaks, who leaked?

Yes. It continues to be a politically motivated attack against Trump.

Well, obviously politics plays a big part in this but there's enough there that we know to indicate it's not just a partisan witch hunt, like Benghazi, for example, after the third of fourth investigation was completed.

Top Cat · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

This just in... Breaking News

Trump's evidence will be unveiled on the same day he releases his taxes.

apdst · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

JasperL said:
If you're going to call me a liar, back it up with quotes, actual words spoken, as I requested the first time.

You're making things up to change the narrative. Just admit it.

lurchadams · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Master PO said:
if you are going to get into silliness i am not going there, again the personal remarks, sad

It is silliness, however it's exactly something Trump said. "I have investigators in Hawaii and you will not believe what they're finding" - this was regarding Trump's birther claims, regarding Obama.

Another B.S. claim: 3 - 5 million people voted illegally for Clinton.

There are many more, but Trump's latest claim - that Obama, personally ordered "Trump Tower's wires tapped" is just the latest in his ridiculous statements.

Given his history of Trump's outlandish claims, it amazes me folks can continue to support him.

Fenton · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

JasperL said:
Give me a break Fenton - you just moved the goal posts off the field and into the stands. Let's review:

Me:

You responded:

And then you link to an article that contradicts you - thanks for that.

Now you're talking about leaks that I've said several times on this thread are obviously (likely) illegal. That's unrelated to "minimization" procedures, which you know or are again being willfully ignorant about so you can ramble about Obama!!!

That's possible and it's also possible Pence's office, who was briefed by the acting AG on Flynn's calls and presumably handed the transcripts, are the ones who leaked the conversation in a power struggle. We know Pence was furious with Flynn and he was tossed over stuff that is likely not illegal (was legal).

And if not Pence or his office, we have no idea who leaked it. Trump has burned some bridges with the IC on many occasions, and he's faced significant opposition from retired State and intelligence people from BOTH parties. So what evidence do you have it was Obama political appointees who leaked that stuff? None....

I did no such thing. You cited the authors justification for the disclosure of Flynns name and I rejected it because his explanation was rather idiotic. I guess I should have linked to explanation that didn't include some morons opinion but I linked to the first one that popped up.

The one condition that allows the disclosure of a Americans citizens name is if its relevant to the evaluation of the intelligence gained from the discussion. Public disclosure of a covert intelligence operation or the specific identity of those being targeted is never under any circumstance relevant.

And I dont have any idea who leaked Flynns name, whoever did broke the law and needs to be held accountable, but given the actions of Obama and the Democrats to undermine Trumps Presidency and his agenda my money is on some Obama holdover in one of our intelligence agencies.

Loretta Lynch, 2 weeks before Obama left office signed off on a order that gave the NSA latitude to share its raw data before it applies privacy protection to or minimizes the raw data with 16 other intelligence agencies. Any incoming calls from Russian officials would be included with that raw data, so there's no doubt in my mind, someone in the NSA or even CIA is the leaker. She sure didn't do it to maker America safe again

Fenton · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

lurchadams said:
It is silliness, however it's exactly something Trump said. "I have investigators in Hawaii and you will not believe what they're finding" - this was regarding Trump's birther claims, regarding Obama.

Another B.S. claim: 3 - 5 million people voted illegally for Clinton.

There are many more, but Trump's latest claim - that Obama, personally ordered "Trump Tower's wires tapped" is just the latest in his ridiculous statements.

Given his history of Trump's outlandish claims, it amazes me folks can continue to support him.

Lol...

Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/trump-russia-associates-investigation.html?_r=0

" American law enforcement and intelligence agencies are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions as part of a broad investigation into possible links between Russian officials and associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, current and former senior American officials said.

The continuing counterintelligence investigation means that Mr. Trump will take the oath of office on Friday with his associates under investigation and after the intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government had worked to help elect him. As president, Mr. Trump will oversee those agencies and have the authority to redirect or stop at least some of these efforts."

General Flynn and Colonel Mustard: Let's Piece Together Clues About the Leak
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/02/16/general-flynn-and-colonel-mustard-lets-piece-together-clues-about-the-leak/

October....

lurchadams · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
Lol...

Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/trump-russia-associates-investigation.html?_r=0

" American law enforcement and intelligence agencies are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions as part of a broad investigation into possible links between Russian officials and associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, current and former senior American officials said.

The continuing counterintelligence investigation means that Mr. Trump will take the oath of office on Friday with his associates under investigation and after the intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government had worked to help elect him. As president, Mr. Trump will oversee those agencies and have the authority to redirect or stop at least some of these efforts."

The article you posted is from January, yet Trump claimed he "just found out" Saturday.

I'll say it again, instead of going into hiding, if a warrant exists, Trump should declassify it and lets see it.

JasperL · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
I did no such thing. You cited the authors justification for the disclosure of Flynns name and I rejected it because his explanation was rather idiotic. I guess I should have linked to explanation that didn't include some morons opinion but I linked to the first one that popped up.

The "moron" included a passage from the judicial history that is directly on point and contradicts you. If you think his reasoning was faulty, please explain what part you disagree with, and be specific! I think what you don't like is you accidentally linked to an honest broker and he didn't confirm your conspiracy theory for you.

1) The one condition that allows the disclosure of a Americans citizens name is if its relevant to the evaluation of the intelligence gained from the discussion. 2) Public disclosure of a covert intelligence operation or the specific identity of those being targeted is never under any circumstance relevant.

I don't think you have a clue what "minimization" means, or if you do you're being dishonest. You make two statements there and they are actually unrelated. The first relates to minimization, which is to redact the names of essentially innocent people unrelated to the surveillance. This is what the article addresses and you cannot with a straight face argue that anyone reading the transcripts of the ambassadors phone calls don't need to know when he is talking to the NSA!

The second relates to publicly leaking/disclosing classified information and it would apply whether or not Flynn's name (or anyone else's name) was redacted. it's illegal in either case. You've conflated them for some reason but regardless it's nonsense.

And I dont have any idea who leaked Flynns name, whoever did broke the law and needs to be held accountable, but given the actions of Obama and the Democrats to undermine Trumps Presidency and his agenda my money is on some Obama holdover in one of our intelligence agencies.

Of course that's what you believe, and neither of us knows, so maybe we'll see.

Loretta Lynch, 2 weeks before Obama left office signed off on a order that gave the NSA latitude to share its raw data before it applies privacy protection to or minimizes the raw data with 16 other intelligence agencies. Any incoming calls from Russian officials would be included with that raw data, so there's no doubt in my mind, someone in the NSA or even CIA is the leaker. She sure didn't do it to maker America safe again

Again, privacy protection or minimization would not have helped Flynn, as your link to Lawfareblog does a great job explaining.

As to the law change, many sources including some hostile to Obama have pointed out that the change has been in the works for a long time and is something the intelligence agencies have wanted for quite a while. Whether they did it to hurt Trump or to finish something that's been in process and will benefit the intelligence operations as a whole is an unknown - I can't know their reasoning and neither can you. I notice Trump hasn't reversed that order, however, and he could.

JasperL · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
October....
View attachment 67214917

How many times are you going to refer to that tweet. You now know she's referring to an article in Slate. It's right there in your image - first line of the press release. What does this have to do with FISA, intelligence community, leaks, etc.? If you read the story, you'll find out that the findings aren't based on any hacking or leaking or anything else like that but instead computer gearheads doing what they do.

Fenton · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

JasperL said:
How many times are you going to refer to that tweet. You now know she's referring to an article in Slate. It's right there in your image - first line of the press release. What does this have to do with FISA, intelligence community, leaks, etc.? If you read the story, you'll find out that the findings aren't based on any hacking or leaking or anything else like that but instead computer gearheads doing what they do.

From the article

" The greatest miracle of the internet is that it exists—the second greatest is that it persists. Every so often we’re reminded that bad actors wield great skill and have little conscience about the harm they inflict on the world’s digital nervous system. They invent viruses, botnets, and sundry species of malware. There’s good money to be made deflecting these incursions. But a small, tightly knit community of computer scientists who pursue such work—some at cybersecurity firms, some in academia, some with close ties to three-letter federal agencies—is also spurred by a sense of shared idealism and considers itself the benevolent posse that chases off the rogues and rogue states that try to purloin sensitive data and infect the internet with their bugs. “We’re the Union of Concerned Nerds,” in the wry formulation of the Indiana University computer scientist L. Jean Camp."

Again, " a group of computer scientist " would need a FISA warrant to hack into to a private server, and FISA warrants arent handed out to rogue groups of do gooder computer scientist, they're given to Federal agencies

rhinefire · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Four years of stupidest things a president ever said. Someone do a book.

JasperL · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

Fenton said:
From the article

" The greatest miracle of the internet is that it exists—the second greatest is that it persists. Every so often we’re reminded that bad actors wield great skill and have little conscience about the harm they inflict on the world’s digital nervous system. They invent viruses, botnets, and sundry species of malware. There’s good money to be made deflecting these incursions. But a small, tightly knit community of computer scientists who pursue such work—some at cybersecurity firms, some in academia, some with close ties to three-letter federal agencies—is also spurred by a sense of shared idealism and considers itself the benevolent posse that chases off the rogues and rogue states that try to purloin sensitive data and infect the internet with their bugs. “We’re the Union of Concerned Nerds,” in the wry formulation of the Indiana University computer scientist L. Jean Camp."

Again, " a group of computer scientist " would need a FISA warrant to hack into to a private server, and FISA warrants arent handed out to rogue groups of do gooder computer scientist, they're given to Federal agencies

You're just making stuff up. They didn't "hack" into a private server. The article explains what they do and I'm quite sure neither of us understands how this crap works, but it doesn't need FISA warrants. It's not looking at the content, just traffic, and apparently the access is granted by the providers for tracking malware and related bad stuff. A snippet:

Hunting for malware requires highly specialized knowledge of the intricacies of the domain name system—the protocol that allows us to type email addresses and website names to initiate communication. DNS enables our words to set in motion a chain of connections between servers, which in turn delivers the results we desire. Before a mail server can deliver a message to another mail server, it has to look up its IP address using the DNS. Computer scientists have built a set of massive DNS databases, which provide fragmentary histories of communications flows, in part to create an archive of malware: a kind of catalog of the tricks bad actors have tried to pull, which often involve masquerading as legitimate actors. These databases can give a useful, though far from comprehensive, snapshot of traffic across the internet. Some of the most trusted DNS specialists—an elite group of malware hunters, who work for private contractors—have access to nearly comprehensive logs of communication between servers. They work in close concert with internet service providers, the networks through which most of us connect to the internet, and the ones that are most vulnerable to massive attacks. To extend the traffic metaphor, these scientists have cameras posted on the internet’s stoplights and overpasses. They are entrusted with something close to a complete record of all the servers of the world connecting with one another.

What you're essentially alleging is some of these guys who give their names are committing federal crimes, and admitting to it in an article on Slate, and no one does a thing about it. It's nonsense - if it was classified it doesn't get released like this, and the hackers don't make their data available to other researchers publicly as happened here. When Snowden did that, or Manning, etc. we know what happens - they get chased down and arrested or run out of the country.

radioman · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

rhinefire said:
Four years of stupidest things a president ever said. Someone do a book.

At this rate, it'll have several volumes.
Remember those old Encyclopedia Britannica's?

Master PO · Mar 7, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

lurchadams said:
It is silliness, however it's exactly something Trump said. "I have investigators in Hawaii and you will not believe what they're finding" - this was regarding Trump's birther claims, regarding Obama.

Another B.S. claim: 3 - 5 million people voted illegally for Clinton.

There are many more, but Trump's latest claim - that Obama, personally ordered "Trump Tower's wires tapped" is just the latest in his ridiculous statements.

Given his history of Trump's outlandish claims, it amazes me folks can continue to support him.

silliness that i meant , means arguing from the point of emotion and not based on facts

cuban smokes · Mar 20, 2017

Re: ‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapp

FBI Director Comey: No evidence to support Trump’s tweets on wiretapping - March 20. 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVpzRG8cbDM

‘No Evidence’: Republican Lawmakers Want Answers About President Trump’s Wiretapping

bubbabgone

cuban smokes

JasperL

JasperL

Top Cat

He's the most tip top

apdst

lurchadams

Zoom Warrior

Fenton

Fenton

lurchadams

Zoom Warrior

JasperL

JasperL

Fenton

rhinefire

JasperL

radioman

feckless bon vivant

Master PO

Mixed Government advocate

cuban smokes