Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most of Us

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Hatuey said:

If a Native American said the same things about any US president who forcibly removed them from their lands, would you agree with them? Like for example, if Native Americans said Washington, Jefferson etc have blood on their hands for what we know to be the deliberate attacks on native villages by the US army, would you agree that they do?

Or would that be ignored so we can celebrate these men for other things they've done?

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Not even close to being the same thing. For starters, the Cuban populace was the descendants of Spanish settlers in large part, so you can't really compare them to Native Americans. In second, the situation in which the Native Americans were driven westwards was an open war, in which atrocities were committed by all sides; yet it was still a war. There was no war between Castro and anybody in Cuba. Your analogy doesn't work.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

JANFU said:

Your opinion of the regime he replaced is?

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Regime Castro removed was rotten. But one strongman snatching power from another is not redeeming factor.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

joG said:

Regime Castro removed was rotten. But one strongman snatching power from another is not redeeming factor.

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True enough, and Batista was an animal.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Tigerace117 said:

Not even close to being the same thing. For starters, the Cuban populace was the descendants of Spanish settlers in large part, so you can't really compare them to Native Americans. In second, the situation in which the Native Americans were driven westwards was an open war, in which atrocities were committed by all sides; yet it was still a war.There was no war between Castro and anybody in Cuba. Your analogy doesn't work.

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Lol, you seemed to be going towards a point and then failed miserably because you just don't know enough history to make a point. "The Cuban Revolution" was a war between the 26 of July movement, backed heavily by the Cuban countryside and Fulgencio Batista, the country's president. He continued to attack opponents long after this war you don't seem to know much about, likewise atrocities against Native Americans continued long after they'd been subjugated and the territory had been taken over the US.

So how are they not comparable? Because you say so and don't like it? I've already laughed at digsbe silly premise that it's moral and immoral to kill people (which just highlights the point I made) now do I have to laugh at your lack of knowledge concerning both the Cuban revolution and the history of Native American peoples?

That sated, "the analogy" which you failed miserably, that being the question of when and where the plight of people matters is the only thing that doesn't currently work. We get bent out of shape about people worshipping some people, while saying that our heroes and their atrocities should be given special consideration because well, they happened here and they weren't carried out by our enemies but us.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Hatuey said:

Lol, you seemed to be going towards a point and then failed miserably because you just don't know enough history to make a point. "The Cuban Revolution" was a war between the 26 of July movement, backed heavily by the Cuban countryside and Fulgencio Batista, the country's president. He continued to attack opponents long after this war you don't seem to know much about, likewise atrocities against Native Americans continued long after they'd been subjugated and the territory had been taken over the US. So how are they not comparable? Because you say so and don't like it? I've already laughed at digsbe silly premise that it's moral and immoral to kill people (which just highlights the point I made) now do I have to laugh at your lack of knowledge concerning both the Cuban revolution and the history of Native American peoples?

That sated, "the analogy" which you failed miserably, that being the question of when and where the plight of people matters is the only thing that doesn't currently work. We get bent out of shape about people worshipping some people, while saying that our heroes and their atrocities should be given special consideration because well, they happened here and they weren't carried out by our enemies but us.

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Castro was butchering his own people long after the end of the Cuban Revolution bud. I'm not suprised you missed that in your rush to feel superior.

You can laugh all you like, but from I've noticed, people often laugh when they aren't smart enough to learn.

The myth of the peaceful Native Americans, brutally butchered by the evul Americans, never existed in reality.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Gaius46 said:

Or perhaps the article just cherry picked quotes.

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So he sends you to propaganda school because you are an orphan after he killed your family, and in case your school master beats a bit too much crap out of you, the state stitches you up for free.

It's a frikkn' paradise I tell ya!

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

chuckiechan said:

So he sends you to propaganda school because you are an orphan after he killed your family, and in case your school master beats a bit too much crap out of you, the state stitches you up for free.

It's a frikkn' paradise I tell ya!

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Didn't say anything about that. The OP states that there's a love fest between the media and Castro. I correctly stated that there's no basis to conclude that based on an article that pulls single sentences out longer pieces.

Your reponse has nothing to do with anything that I said.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

nota bene said:

I just have, and thank you for posting this. What a gap in my knowledge, and what a fascinating man.

A little Wiki tidbit: Chief Plenty Coups was selected as the sole representative of Native Americans for the dedication of the Tomb Of The Unknown Soldier and gave a short speech in his native tongue in honor of the soldier and the occasion. He placed his war-bonnet and coup stick upon the tomb, and they are preserved in a display case there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenty_Coups

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I did not know about that. Thank you.
It was not in the book I read dated in the 1920's.
He is a very overlooked and wonderful American by any measure.
Especially in his relationships with the "little people" and his spirit guide the chickadee.
I first leaned about him when I lived in Nebraska.
A classic example of the term, " the enemy of my enemy is my friend ".

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

We should mourn and remember him. People who celebrate his death are evil.

Communism has its shortcomings as well as advantages such as welfare. Celebrating death is evil.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

SCitizen said:

We should mourn and remember him. People who celebrate his death are evil.

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Mourn that asshole?

ROTFLOL... no... we're celebrating the end of one evil MF who has brought massive misery to Cubans.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

zimmer said:

we're celebrating the end of one evil MF who has brought massive misery to Cubans.

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USA has also caused enormous suffering -- both Communist nations and USA had positive and negative sides. We should not celebrate Fidel Castro's death or death of former US presidents. All of us are mortal.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

SCitizen said:

We should mourn and remember him. People who celebrate his death are evil.

Communism has its shortcomings as well as advantages such as welfare. Celebrating death is evil.

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You do realize he was a mass murderer and imposed tyranny upon the Cuban people, right? We celebrate his death because we reject and condemn the actions and values of a wicked wicked man. A piece of evil has departed this world, why not celebrate that?

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Does this mean the Cubans can go back to Cuba now?

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

digsbe said:

You do realize he was a mass murderer and imposed tyranny upon the Cuban people, right? We celebrate his death because we reject and condemn the actions and values of a wicked wicked man. A piece of evil has departed this world, why not celebrate that?

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In USA, the incarceration rate is as bad as it was in any Communist country. In Cuba it was never as bad.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Isn't it funny that the real news, is what was on the fake news?

Think about it.. How much of our real news and stories are just about what the fake news posts?

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Even though the absence of Freedom was bad, the welfare state created by Communists was a step in the right direction.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Lutherf said:

Mitchell is right. Castro definitely did improve the educational and medical infrastructure in Cuba. That's undeniable.

He also imprisoned and shot people who didn't fully appreciate his magnanimity. Perhaps Andrea just forgot that part.

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According to the Cuban government?

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Tigerace117 said:

Castro was butchering his own people long after the end of the Cuban Revolution bud.

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This is why I don't believe you know much about either situation historically. Your distinction suggests that Native Americans weren't being oppressed or/and butchered long after the places they lived in were colonized, taken over, whatever you'd like to call it. A basic US history review shows that to be false. So again, the question remains, is there such a thing as a moral or immoral oppression of peoples? No.

That aside, I can see why people are doing the same thing you are doing when it comes to Castro. Our own feelings on the man aside, he was a hero to many Cubans who didn't benefit from Batista's regime as much as the Italian mob did. Then, the man, in a grasp for power, ended up torturing any opponents in order to secure what benefits he'd given a large percentage of the country. That same percentage who wouldn't have otherwise had access to what are generally known as some of the best schools in Latin American when it comes to medicine. This is a fact accepted even by states in the region generally opposed to Castro (Traditionally: Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, etc).

The guy also eradicated literacy problems to the point where Cuba has stood miles above its Latin American neighbors and rivals those of practically any industrialized nation. You'd be hard pressed to go to Cuba and find a Cuban who cannot read. I' spent years in Mexico and regularly found people living IN medium sized cities who couldn't speak Spanish much less read it.

Then again, I find that the man's biggest crimes were his eradication (as my wife's father puts it - he's Cuban of all political institutions existing before 59, his complete information isolation of the island (i.e. no widely available sources of information like the internet even in the 90s, his destruction of a somewhat* free press, etc) and finally his support for guerillas outside in Latin America.

In short, the man was a dictator but to believe he did anything for his people that an average citizen living under Batista wouldn't justify after 59 is absolutely insane. Kind of like how you're defending certain slaughterings as moral because well, if we go by your statements, war is hell.

Your position is myopic at best.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

apdst said:

According to the Cuban government?

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... This is a well known fact to anybody who has traveled to the island or met Cubans.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Hatuey said:

This is why I don't believe you know much about either situation historically. Your distinction suggests that Native Americans weren't being oppressed or/and butchered long after the places they lived in were colonized, taken over, whatever you'd like to call it. A basic US history review shows that to be false. So again, the question remains, is there such a thing as a moral or immoral oppression of peoples? No.

That aside, I can see why people are doing the same thing you are doing when it comes to Castro. Our own feelings on the man aside, he was a hero to many Cubans who didn't benefit from Batista's regime as much as the Italian mob did. Then, the man, in a grasp for power, ended up torturing any opponents in order to secure what benefits he'd given a large percentage of the country. That same percentage who wouldn't have otherwise had access to what are generally known as some of the best schools in Latin American when it comes to medicine. This is a fact accepted even by states in the region generally opposed to Castro (Traditionally: Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, etc).

The guy also eradicated literacy problems to the point where Cuba has stood miles above its Latin American neighbors and rivals those of practically any industrialized nation. You'd be hard pressed to go to Cuba and find a Cuban who cannot read. I' spent years in Mexico and regularly found people living IN medium sized cities who couldn't speak Spanish much less read it.

Then again, I find that the man's biggest crimes were his eradication (as my wife's father puts it - he's Cuban of all political institutions existing before 59, his complete information isolation of the island (i.e. no widely available sources of information like the internet even in the 90s, his destruction of a somewhat* free press, etc) and finally his support for guerillas outside in Latin America.

In short, the man was a dictator but to believe he did anything for his people that an average citizen living under Batista wouldn't justify after 59 is absolutely insane. Kind of like how you're defending certain slaughterings as moral because well, if we go by your statements, war is hell.

Your position is myopic at best.

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Yes, war is hell. War is intrinsically hell. There is no changing that. To say otherwise is laughable.

Every single Native American tribe gained the land they were on at the time they ran into Americans by seizing it by force from other tribes, and usually exterminating them in the process. The fighting between the English colonists who would become Americans and the Native Americans was merely the newest phase of those conflicts.

He quickly went from a hero to a villain in a span of a couple months when he started cracking down hard in Cuba. It certainly wouldn't be safe to celebrate his death in Cuba itself but the reaction to his passing in Miami should tell you exactly what your average Cuban thought of the guy you hold in such high regard.

I'm sure those people appreciated all that medical training when they were having their eyes cut out--- after all, doctors can more easily put back together what the goons take apart. What good does reading do your when you can be tossed in jail to rot for anything you read or none at all.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Tigerace117 said:

Yes, war is hell. War is intrinsically hell. There is no changing that. To say otherwise is laughable.

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And yet, it doesn't excuse massacres during them or afterwards like with Native Americans. Which kind of leaves us in a place of many of our own presidents having blood on their hands regardless of their party.

Every single Native American tribe gained the land they were on at the time they ran into Americans by seizing it by force from other tribes, and usually exterminating them in the process. The fighting between the English colonists who would become Americans and the Native Americans was merely the newest phase of those conflicts.

He quickly went from a hero to a villain in a span of a couple months when he started cracking down hard in Cuba. It certainly wouldn't be safe to celebrate his death in Cuba itself but the reaction to his passing in Miami should tell you exactly what your average Cuban thought of the guy you hold in such high regard.

I'm sure those people appreciated all that medical training when they were having their eyes cut out--- after all, doctors can more easily put back together what the goons take apart. What good does reading do your when you can be tossed in jail to rot for anything you read or none at all.

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So... colonization makes colonization acceptable and thus massacres mean that presidents don't have blood on their hands when there was even less respect for human rights? Don't be absurd. The part in bold? A quick look at Fidel's popularity in his country and abroad for years after the revolution is pretty much proof that you have little to no idea what it is you are talking about.

:lol:

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Hatuey said:

And yet, it doesn't excuse massacres during them or afterwards like with Native Americans. Which kind of leaves us in a place of many of our own presidents having blood on their hands regardless of their party.



So... colonization makes colonization acceptable and thus massacres mean that presidents don't have blood on their hands when there was even less respect for human rights? Don't be absurd.

:lol:

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So in other words the usual "but what about the Indians" yodeling you hear whenever an American dare point out that a country or group of people has committed atrocities against their populace. Typical--- and boring.

The armed conflicts against the native Americans involved massacres from both sides, not just the settlers as you seem to be implying. They were full of them. That doesn't even come close to justifying the murder of civillians who had not taken up arms against you in a time of domestic peace.

If anything much of that blood is on the hands of one tribal leader or another, for risking their people and prolonging the bloodshed long after the outcome was already detirmined.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Tigerace117 said:

So in other words the usual "but what about the Indians" yodeling you hear whenever an American dare point out that a country or group of people has committed atrocities against their populace. Typical--- and boring.

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Would you like me to use the Armenian massacre as an example to make you feel comfortable? I'd give you some suggested readings so you can inform yourself on the subject and then we can go at it. We wouldn't want to have the same situation we had here where you seem completely unequipped to discuss the Cuban revolution.

Whatever makes you comfortable.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

Hatuey said:

Would you like me to use the Armenian massacre as an example to make you feel comfortable? I'd give you some suggested readings so you can inform yourself on the subject and then we can go at it. We wouldn't want to have the same situation we had here where you seem completely unequipped to discuss the Cuban revolution.

Whatever makes you comfortable.

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Surprise surprise. Yet another example of you talking about your own perceived superiority when you have yet to prove a single one of your points.

But hey--- I guess you need to think like that in order to justify to yourself your support for the guy.

Re: Journalists Hail Castro’s Achievements, ‘George Washington,’ ‘Folk Hero to Most o

SCitizen said:

We should mourn and remember him. People who celebrate his death are evil.

Communism has its shortcomings as well as advantages such as welfare. Celebrating death is evil.

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Did you mourn bin laden? Saddam?