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Trump says he would require schools to teach patriotism

code1211 said:
I was in school when they still taught who Phillip of Macedonia was.

As a matter of fact, one of my history teachers was a full throated advocate of Communism and he did expose the fact that Jefferson was a slave owner and that the Declaration of Independence was a piece of propaganda.
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I sincerely doubt that that's true, sorry but that's a little too convenient.

But let's say it is, you still managed to turn into a precious patriotic little flower didn't you :roll:

Despite that evil commie America hating man teaching you book stuff.
 
Deuce said:
Should we ignore the whole slavery thing when teaching history?
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Not at all.

It is a part of history.

Also a part of history is the CONTEXT of the times in which events occurred.

There is a huge difference made by specific things in history, so, just as the Magna Carta was a huge leap forward in the rights of men, implementing those ideas today would be viewed as a huge leap backward.

That said, the Declaration is also a huge leap forward in the grand ideas expressed AT THE TIME.

The fact that Jefferson owned slaves does not diminish the majesty of his words. In truth, it might even magnify them. He saw those "truths to be self evident" despite the culture all around him that told him it was not true.

That Washington walked away from being made king is a big deal.

That Franklin spent his life as the most advanced scientist on the planet negotiating the financing of the American Revolution is a big deal.

There is much in the founders that is noble and visionary and is so specifically due to the CONTEXT of the time in which they lived.
 
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Deuce said:
So how do you know what they're teaching today?
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Because whenever I mention Phillip of Macedonia to folks who are younger than me, just about the entire population of the people I see in the world, they have no idea who he is or how he fits into world history.
 
Jetboogieman said:
I sincerely doubt that that's true, sorry but that's a little too convenient.

But let's say it is, you still managed to turn into a precious patriotic little flower didn't you :roll:

Despite that evil commie America hating man teaching you book stuff.
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You may put your doubts to rest.

I was in High School in the late 60's/early 70's. It was cool at the time among the elites to be a Communist. Are you reading this, Mr. Strom?

As far as Phillip of Macedonia goes, I found that to be a particularly interesting hinge point in history and it alerted me to the power behind the the throne guys, the prime movers, in history.
 
code1211 said:
Not at all.

It is a part of history.

Also a part of history is the CONTEXT of the times in which events occurred.

There is a huge difference made by specific things in history, so, just as the Magna Carta was a huge leap forward in the rights of men, implementing those ideas today would be viewed as a huge leap backward.

That said, the Declaration is also a huge leap forward in the grand ideas expressed AT THE TIME.

The fact that Jefferson owned slaves does not diminish the majesty of his words. In truth, it might even magnify them. He saw those "truths to be self evident" despite the culture all around him that told him it was not true.

That Washington walked away from being made king is a big deal.

That Franklin spent his life as the most advanced scientist on the planet negotiating the financing of the American Revolution is a big deal.

There is much in the founders that is noble and visionary and is so specifically due to the CONTEXT of the time in which they lived.
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Yes, but why are you under the impression that kids aren't taught all this?

Teachers don't start a lesson with "Ok kids today we're going to learn about some racist slave owners named Jefferson and Adams. History is taught, and that history includes slavery and oppression. It includes genocide and sexism. And it includes freedom and exploration. Revolution and liberty.

People will conclude from this what they will. What's the issue?
 
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TheGoverness said:
So basically Trump wants schools to teach a rose-colored glasses view of America, and have everyone express blind obedience to the country.

Great. How very patriotic.

If Trump can criticize America for it's faults, then everyone else should be able to do the same. It's a free country after all, is it not? This isn't Panem.
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Someone has to balance off the "America is the worst country in the world" education our kids are getting. "Thanksgiving" is now "Thankstaking", small pox is no longer a disease, but a bio weapon used against the defenseless Indians, who couldn't seem to make it out of the stone age in time.

If it weren't for American expansion, there would be no USA. We would be a continent like Europe, divvied up between Spain, France, England, and Russia - and possibly even China. There would be no Canada, either. It would be Russian, French, and English - and possibly even Japanese.

So, yes. Children should be taught that their country is the best and that we exist because we fought to exist against people who fought to extinguish us before we got started. The winners write the history books, but unfortunately too often the losers hire the teachers of our youth. The world is run by tyrants. At least we get to elect ours.
 
chuckiechan said:
Someone has to balance off the "America is the worst country in the world" education our kids are getting. .
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That isn't what kids are being taught. This is what some right wing nutjob blogger told you they are being taught.
 
Deuce said:
Yes, but why are you under the impression that kids aren't taught all this?

Teachers don't start a lesson with "Ok kids today we're going to learn about some racist slave owners named Jefferson and Adams. History is taught, and that history includes slavery and oppression. It includes genocide and sexism. And it includes freedom and exploration. Revolution and liberty.
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I was a senior in high school the first time I heard a teacher link the ideas that Jefferson was the writer of the Declaration and was also a slave owner. That would have been in either 1970 or 1971.

I remember being surprised that the teacher was making this connection, but it was also mind expanding, so there's that... However, that is all that i recall from that particular day in class.

I'm not sure that the relativism of everything can be included in the minds of the young. The actions of Malcolm X, for instance are cause for awe and inspiration. The actions of Colin Kapernik (sp?) are ridiculous. Different time and different potentials for retribution. CONTEXT.
 
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Deuce said:
That isn't what kids are being taught. This is what some right wing nutjob blogger told you they are being taught.
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I exaggerated a bit, but in many colleges you are shamed if you wear an America flag lapel pin.

And my experience is mostly with private schools, and patriotism runs strong and deep - along with religion.

So whatever you are teaching, go for it, but put up a "how it could have been if we didn't roll over the tribes and kill everyone" map of the USA!
 
chuckiechan said:
Someone has to balance off the "America is the worst country in the world" education our kids are getting. "Thanksgiving" is now "Thankstaking", small pox is no longer a disease, but a bio weapon used against the defenseless Indians, who couldn't seem to make it out of the stone age in time.

If it weren't for American expansion, there would be no USA. We would be a continent like Europe, divvied up between Spain, France, England, and Russia - and possibly even China. There would be no Canada, either. It would be Russian, French, and English - and possibly even Japanese.

So, yes. Children should be taught that their country is the best and that we exist because we fought to exist against people who fought to extinguish us before we got started. The winners write the history books, but unfortunately too often the losers hire the teachers of our youth. The world is run by tyrants. At least we get to elect ours.
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Churchill was asked if history would treat well and he replied that he intended to write it. :)
 
chuckiechan said:
I exaggerated a bit, but in many colleges you are shamed if you wear an America flag lapel pin.

And my experience is mostly with private schools, and patriotism runs strong and deep - along with religion.

So whatever you are teaching, go for it, but put up a "how it could have been if we didn't roll over the tribes and kill everyone" map of the USA!
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More than that, use that same premise and make a map of the world.
 
chuckiechan said:
Someone has to balance off the "America is the worst country in the world" education our kids are getting. "Thanksgiving" is now "Thankstaking", small pox is no longer a disease, but a bio weapon used against the defenseless Indians, who couldn't seem to make it out of the stone age in time.

If it weren't for American expansion, there would be no USA. We would be a continent like Europe, divvied up between Spain, France, England, and Russia - and possibly even China. There would be no Canada, either. It would be Russian, French, and English - and possibly even Japanese.

So, yes. Children should be taught that their country is the best and that we exist because we fought to exist against people who fought to extinguish us before we got started. The winners write the history books, but unfortunately too often the losers hire the teachers of our youth. The world is run by tyrants. At least we get to elect ours.
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Your country isn't the best.

Being technically the richest and having the most powerful military doesn't make you great.

The way you treat your people is.

and America treats its people like **** in some misguided attempt to make a quick buck.
 
It is the best.

I notice you don't give a location so I have no idea who you are comparing it to.
 
code1211 said:
I was a senior in high school the first time I heard a teacher link the ideas that Jefferson was the writer of the Declaration and was also a slave owner. That would have been in either 1970 or 1971.

I remember being surprised that the teacher was making this connection, but it was also mind expanding, so there's that... However, that is all that i recall from that particular day in class.
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So, the teacher didn't start out the day with "here's information on terrible people." Merely pointed out the juxtaposition to you? Is that so bad?

I'm not sure that the relativism of everything can be included in the minds of the young. The actions of Malcolm X, for instance are cause for awe and inspiration. The actions of Colin Kapernik (sp?) are ridiculous. Different time and different potentials for retribution. CONTEXT.
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Laughable. Time has really created a rosy picture for people like Malcolm X and MLK. You were pretty young at the time, so maybe you just don't have a clear memory of all the negative reactions those men got at the time.
 
chuckiechan said:
It is the best.

I notice you don't give a location so I have no idea who you are comparing it to.
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Some would argue that the only metrics in which America is actually #1 are military spending and incarcerations per capita.
 
chuckiechan said:
It is the best.
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It isn't.

Misguided national pride an ideology make you think it is, but it's far from it.

Military might and wealth doesn't make a country great.

How it treats its citizens does.

And you have a long way to go.
 
Deuce said:
So, the teacher didn't start out the day with "here's information on terrible people." Merely pointed out the juxtaposition to you? Is that so bad?


Laughable. Time has really created a rosy picture for people like Malcolm X and MLK. You were pretty young at the time, so maybe you just don't have a clear memory of all the negative reactions those men got at the time.
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The juxtaposition is not a bad thing, but the context was missing entirely and that was his goal.

Rosy picture? In what way? Both Malcolm X and Dr. King put their lives on the line every time they went out in public. How is that a rosy picture.
 
code1211 said:
What is wrong with creating legends that we can aspire to emulate rather than effigies that we are obliged to ridicule?

The Greeks, another concentration of geniuses, had their ideal. Why are we robbed of our role models?

That is what it means to teach patriotism in schools.
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Ah. So you think we should seek to misinform our populace in the name of "patriotism". Indoctrinating the public with lies doesn't sound very patriotic to me.
 
Jetboogieman said:
It isn't.

Misguided national pride an ideology make you think it is, but it's far from it.

Military might and wealth doesn't make a country great.

How it treats its citizens does.

And you have a long way to go.
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I feel it is. You seem to have very binary opinion as to how the USA treats it's 325 million people. There are, and always will be people left out of prosperity, and it's not a "national fault".
 
danarhea said:
Patriotism doesn't mean blind obedience. It means standing up for the Constitution. It doesn't mean rewriting history to gloss over the bad chapters. It means loving your country enough to recognize when we as a nation have done wrong and try not to do it again. It doesn't mean only reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. It's living the Pledge, especially the "Liberty and Justice for all" part of it. In that context, patriotism is a very good thing. Taken too far, it becomes the kind of Fascism that was promoted by Adolf Hitler. Yes, there is a line, and it must never be crossed, for when it is, then patriotism becomes hollow, and not worth the empty words being parroted. When that happens, you are no longer patriotic, but have betrayed the very principles that are the reasons for patriotism in the first place.

I, for one, love my country, and will stand up for the rights of others to criticize it's faults, for it is that very criticism that has kept us from going down a very dark path where freedom and justice no longer exist. Yes, some of the criticism against America I do not like, and I feel that some of the criticism, such as flag burning, is indecent to me. But I do not ever want to forget dark chapters in our history, such as slavery and later lynchings of African Americans, extermination of Native Americans, internment of Japanese citizens, and all the other mistakes we have made, because I love America enough to not wanting to repeat these same mistakes. To stand as a nation, we must remember the bad as well as the good because both the bad and the good is what we are. Let us treasure the good, and, while remembering the bad, throw the bad away. We cannot do that if we never recognize the bad, but are always parroting the good. So let the indecent be indecent, let the good be good, and let us all be free thinkers who will always strive to make us a better nation. Don't ever let anybody persuade you that our best times are behind us. Our best times are always, and will always be, ahead of us. Let us work towards that end.

/RANT

Article is here.

PS - And please vote for Gary Johnson in November. :)
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I agree, oh except that the last part, in bold above, is wishful thinking at this time, there will be some real hard times before we get focused in the right direction again, if ever. I would love to have that proven wrong, but my experience tells me otherwise.
 
We should teach patriotism and what it means to live in this country good and bad. Teaching a child about their country and about patriotism doesn't make them brainwashed. Everyone needs to believe in something so why not believe in your country, it's past, present and future? Trump is trying to bring back honor to our country. Look at what inspiration it is to others when one person does a good deed. The pay it forward movement got people thinking about kind acts that they could do. To think this is stupid is wrong. By doing something good didn't that person teach others to do good also? To teach patriotism makes sense. No country flourishes when its citizens try to tear it apart. The naysayers on this topic aren't really understanding the goal. They are just once again finding fault in anything and everything.
 
I don't believe we should indoctrinate our kids re Russian Exceptionalism............
 
Gaztopian said:
Regardless of my views on Trump and his candidacy, the fiction he's selling his supporters is absolutely astounding. When did the U.S stop being one nation? did something happen to American culture of which I'm unaware? are Americans defecting en masse? to whom is American apologizing? This is just crudely amazing. Most if not all of what Trump says, does, or proposes is based on an alternate reality that contrasts ours, yet it strikes the core of his supporters, making their idolatry of Trump mightier and fiercer.
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No they are not defecting in masses, but if Trump wins the election, all of Hollywood has promised to leave this country and live elsewhere. I can't wait.
 
EvaPeron said:
We should teach patriotism and what it means to live in this country good and bad. Teaching a child about their country and about patriotism doesn't make them brainwashed. Everyone needs to believe in something so why not believe in your country, it's past, present and future? Trump is trying to bring back honor to our country. Look at what inspiration it is to others when one person does a good deed. The pay it forward movement got people thinking about kind acts that they could do. To think this is stupid is wrong. By doing something good didn't that person teach others to do good also? To teach patriotism makes sense. No country flourishes when its citizens try to tear it apart. The naysayers on this topic aren't really understanding the goal. They are just once again finding fault in anything and everything.
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Maybe teaching patriotism of our men and women who have given their lives for this country so that they have freedom. And take care of our veterans.
 
code1211 said:
The juxtaposition is not a bad thing, but the context was missing entirely and that was his goal.
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Bull****. Are you suggesting you were in high school and knew nothing of the founding fathers other than they were slave owners?


Rosy picture? In what way? Both Malcolm X and Dr. King put their lives on the line every time they went out in public. How is that a rosy picture.
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They were both heavily criticized in their day for the violent acts done in the name of civil rights.
 
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