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Obama thinks Confederate flag 'belongs in a Museum'.....

Ockham said:
I think it's a shame people have to attack symbols instead of having a frank and honest discussion about race. Some people say the confederate flag is a symbol of racism - some of those same people say the American flag is a symbol of international oppression. I'd say deal with the actual issues and the need to destroy or hide symbols goes away.
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One of the actual issues is the flag. It only has meaning because of the other issues. How about we stop showing it respect and start showing respect for others. It has no place in a house of govt. and it needs to be laid to rest with the dead Confederates who made it. I keep hearing the South will rise again...they certainly didn't mean IQ scores.
 
catch22 said:
So are you saying slave owners weren't racist at all?
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That's an interesting question because free blacks also owned slaves. Indentured servants were just like slaves, only they didn't have to stay for life. Parents would sell them into indenture - or they would indenture themselves.

None of that is acceptable these days, thankfully, but I think it behooves us to look at the whole history - not just one part of it - and then rewrite history to suit how we feel today. The Confederate flag means much more to the descendants of the deep south than just the disgrace of slavery. We're getting good at labeling feelings and things, but our labels do us injustice because they shut out the big picture.
 
upsideguy said:
...in the same vein that Martin Luther King was post-racial. Articulating your vision of a post-racial America does not make America post-racial. We need visionaries and we need to deal in reality. We ain't post-racial.
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Ok, Whatever you say. I was just channeling liberals who claimed Obama was post racial. I never thought he was. I thought he was post good judgement.
 
beefheart said:
I'm not mad. I just pity you for being so full of hatred.
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Is he really so full of hatred or was it just due to the fact that you didn't like what he said? Do you know for certain that he is full of hate? Is there anything that you can present that would make you credible with your so called assessment.

Btw, when did he become part of the OP, again?
 
MMC said:
Mornin FMW. :2wave: This makes things worse and divides people up. Summertime is here.
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To me it is simply trivial. I can't imagine why anybody cares.
 
MMC said:
Uh oh. :shock: This just opened Pandoras Box. Now the Confederate flag besides gun control has become an issue for BO and the NAACP. Who saw that one coming? What say ye?



President Obama believes the Confederate flag “belongs in a museum,” the White House said Friday amid calls for it to be taken down, following a mass shooting in South Carolina.

“The president has said before he believes the Confederate flag belongs in a museum, and that is still his position,” spokesman Eric Schultz told reporters aboard Air Force One......snip~

Obama thinks Confederate flag 'belongs in a museum' | TheHill
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Well, he's hardly on his own. Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney feel similarly.

Jeb Bush, Romney call for removal of Dixie flag from S.C. Capitol
 
MMC said:
Politics does include the trivial. Our media shows us this, damn near daily.
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No doubt about that. A lame duck president should be beyond politics but, of course, it doesn't work that way.
 
MMC said:
Uh oh. :shock: This just opened Pandoras Box. Now the Confederate flag besides gun control has become an issue for BO and the NAACP. Who saw that one coming? What say ye?



President Obama believes the Confederate flag “belongs in a museum,” the White House said Friday amid calls for it to be taken down, following a mass shooting in South Carolina.

“The president has said before he believes the Confederate flag belongs in a museum, and that is still his position,” spokesman Eric Schultz told reporters aboard Air Force One......snip~

Obama thinks Confederate flag 'belongs in a museum' | TheHill
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". . . The justice of the cause which in the end prevailed, will, I doubt not, come to be acknowledged by every citizen of the land, in time. For the present, and so long as there are living witnesses of the great war of sections, there will be people who will not be consoled for the loss of a cause which they believed holy. As time passes, people, even of the South, will begin to wonder how it was possible that their ancestors ever fought for or justified institutions which acknowledge the right of property in man." --U.S. Grant
 
Threads like this one and the other one on the subject just leave me breathless.. I just don't get why people cannot separate themselves from emotions. This flag, nor any other symbol, including the swastika, caused people to do bad things. My God people, my God!


Tim-
 
It does belong in a museum. It may be symbolic on the face of it, but symbolism has real life consequences. As long as states like South Carolina continue to fly confederate flags on official government property and name streets after confederate generals and such, it is going to keep the issue of racial tension at the forefront of people's minds. The presence of remnants of institutionalized racism such as these symbols only encourage heinous and racist acts such as the Charleston shooting. Black people in South Carolina are literally driving down streets named after generals that fought to keep their ancestors enslaved, and their very state government flies the flag of a rogue nation whose primary purpose for existing was to preserve slavery. That is going to bring racial tensions to the forefront of people's minds. If people want to actually display confederate flags, that free speech and their right, albeit in very poor taste, but this active government endorsement of these symbols is clearly hurting the state of race relations, and if a clear proportion of the population wants a flag that brings no obvious benefits taken down, then by all means it should be.
 
SocialDemocrat said:
It does belong in a museum. It may be symbolic on the face of it, but symbolism has real life consequences. As long as states like South Carolina continue to fly confederate flags on official government property and name streets after confederate generals and such, it is going to keep the issue of racial tension at the forefront of people's minds. The presence of remnants of institutionalized racism such as these symbols only encourage heinous and racist acts such as the Charleston shooting. Black people in South Carolina are literally driving down streets named after generals that fought to keep their ancestors enslaved, and their very state government flies the flag of a rogue nation whose primary purpose for existing was to preserve slavery. That is going to bring racial tensions to the forefront of people's minds. If people want to actually display confederate flags, that free speech and their right, albeit in very poor taste, but this active government endorsement of these symbols is clearly hurting the state of race relations, and if a clear proportion of the population wants a flag that brings no obvious benefits taken down, then by all means it should be.
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People keep saying stuff like the part of your post that I highlighted, but so far I haven't seen any real justification for that contention.

I mean, think about it...in this case, that flag has been there for decades. If it had such an effect on people, one would think we would see a LOT of events in Charleston like that shooting. As far as I know, we haven't.

Now, even if this one nut-job was affected by the flag being there, I don't see that as a reason to remove something that millions of people have viewed...some of them on a daily basis.

Frankly, SocialDemocrat, I see your viewpoint as nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction and I don't like to see policy determined and enacted on that basis.
 
Mycroft said:
People keep saying stuff like the part of your post that I highlighted, but so far I haven't seen any real justification for that contention.

I mean, think about it...in this case, that flag has been there for decades. If it had such an effect on people, one would think we would see a LOT of events in Charleston like that shooting. As far as I know, we haven't.
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I don't claim that removal of the confederate flag is a catch-all solution that suddenly makes racial problems disappear. The confederate flag is a symbol of past institutionalized racism. If South Carolina had removed its confederate flag five years ago, would it have prevented this shooting? No. If the south had not attempted to secede and form the Confederacy, which white nationalists drool over and reminisce about today, or if racism had not played a such large role in American society for centuries, would this shooting have been prevented? Probably, because that's where the shooter is coming from: nostalgia over segregation, confederate secession, and the slave power itself. As a remnant of this institutionalized racism that encouraging hateful behavior, the confederate flag should be removed as soon as possible from government recognition.

Now, even if this one nut-job was affected by the flag being there, I don't see that as a reason to remove something that millions of people have viewed...some of them on a daily basis.
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What benefits does flying the confederate flag bring? There are arguments against taking it down, sure, but there's no argument I've seen for the necessity of flying the confederate flag in the first place.

Frankly, SocialDemocrat, I see your viewpoint as nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction and I don't like to see policy determined and enacted on that basis.
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It's certainly not a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I don't believe I've ever alluded to it on DP, but I have always supported removal of the confederate flag (at least since I was politically aware).
 
SocialDemocrat said:
I don't claim that removal of the confederate flag is a catch-all solution that suddenly makes racial problems disappear. The confederate flag is a symbol of past institutionalized racism. If South Carolina had removed its confederate flag five years ago, would it have prevented this shooting? No. If the south had not attempted to secede and form the Confederacy, which white nationalists drool over and reminisce about today, or if racism had not played a such large role in American society for centuries, would this shooting have been prevented? Probably, because that's where the shooter is coming from: nostalgia over segregation, confederate secession, and the slave power itself. As a remnant of this institutionalized racism that encouraging hateful behavior, the confederate flag should be removed as soon as possible from government recognition.
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Nice rant, but it still doesn't establish how this flag encourages acts such as this shooting or why it hasn't encouraged MORE such acts.

What benefits does flying the confederate flag bring? There are arguments against taking it down, sure, but there's no argument I've seen for the necessity of flying the confederate flag in the first place.

The People of the State of South Carolina are not obligated to justify their reasons for flying that flag to anyone except amongst themselves and the fact that you see no benefit to flying that flag is irrelevant. People make their choices for their own reasons. Don't worry about it.

It's certainly not a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I don't believe I've ever alluded to it on DP, but I have always supported removal of the confederate flag (at least since I was politically aware).
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Well, you haven't convinced me of your reasoning. So it goes.

But in my opinion, we should worry less about some flag and worry more about how to detect people like this shooter and how to deal with him during the act, itself, to minimize casualties. Taking down a flag isn't going to help with either of these things.
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Mycroft said:
This whole flag thing is the lefties wanting to raise a false ruckus about racism...that they can blame on conservatives in general and Republicans in particular.

Don't worry, though...in a week or two everyone will go back to not caring and the flag will still be there.
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A flag is a softer target than gun rights.There is news the govenor of that state caved.

While at the federal level 2nd amendment rights did not get further infringed on the same can not be said about about anti-2nd amendment states.2nd amendment rights were further infringed on in those states.
 
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Mycroft said:
Nice rant, but it still doesn't establish how this flag encourages acts such as this shooting
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Inanimate objects do not, but the people who use this symbol representing institutional slavery and subjugation of Blacks do use it to legitimize their view....which a US state is still flying, legitimizing it further......but then you already knew that.
or why it hasn't encouraged MORE such acts.
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This is asking someone to prove a negative, so it is just rhetorical nonsense.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Inanimate objects do not, but the people who use this symbol representing institutional slavery and subjugation of Blacks do use it to legitimize their view....which a US state is still flying, legitimizing it further......but then you already knew that.This is asking someone to prove a negative, so it is just rhetorical nonsense.
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sigh...

Still learning to read, eh?

SocialDemocrat made the statement that such symbols "encourage heinous and racist acts such as the Charleston shooting", so you evidently disagree with him and it is perfectly reasonable for me to ask him to justify that statement.
 
Mycroft said:
Nice rant, but it still doesn't establish how this flag encourages acts such as this shooting or why it hasn't encouraged MORE such acts.
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Well that's because I never claimed that the confederate flag encourages shootings. The confederate flag, but more so what it represents, encourages racism, which in this case manifested itself in the form of a shooting.

The People of the State of South Carolina are not obligated to justify their reasons for flying that flag to anyone except amongst themselves and the fact that you see no benefit to flying that flag is irrelevant. People make their choices for their own reasons. Don't worry about it.
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It goes without saying that any decision made by government should be done in a fair and democratic manner. If South Carolina held a referendum on use of the confederate flag by the government for example, I would vote against government usage and recognition of the flag, but if the population voted in favor of the flag's usage, that is their decision that should be carried out. I'll strongly disagree with it, but that is irrelevant to what the government should do in response to the hypothetical referendum.

I'm asking you though, not the people of South Carolina. You're the one defending display of the confederate flag on public property.

Well, you haven't convinced me of your reasoning. So it goes.

But in my opinion, we should worry less about some flag and worry more about how to detect people like this shooter and how to deal with him during the act, itself, to minimize casualties. Taking down a flag isn't going to help with either of these things.
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As I said before, this is dealing more with racism than shootings. Prevention of shootings requires investment in mental healthcare, etc.
 
I see nothing wrong with the thought that the Confederate flag belongs in a museum. It is a piece of history that should not be ignored or swept under the rug. But displayed as a source of pride? Good gracious.
 
Jack Hays said:
Charleston
[h=2]How Americans Felt About The Confederate Flag Before Charleston[/h]
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Oh look.....Confederate Flags in Museums. Imagine that!


th

th



Told ya.....BO peep never did have an original idea in his head.
 
Removed trolling picture. ~ Kal'Stang
 
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