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Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

Crovax said:
Its a cycle when hard workers get promoted others will follow in their place and have to work their way up. I obviously haven't met all of the low wage workers but in my experience any one them who were low wage for a long tine were either lazy/incompetent or didnt want to move up. Theres this one kid that works for me now, early 20s not going to college, hard worker shows up every day. Theres a supervisor position open and he would get it if he applied but has not interest in doing anything other than being a stocker and despite Helix's claim that people always want raises and promotions this is the type of **** that really baffles the theorists when they venture into the real world.
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Venture into the real world? I do just fine, thanks.

Anyway, it seems to have gone over your head that low-wage jobs exist no matter how hard people work. Your theory is complete horse****. If every single person in the country worked exactly the same amount, had the same IQ, and the same education, there would still be janitors and cashiers.

In the world of variables, they are a constant.
 
whysoserious said:
Venture into the real world? I do just fine, thanks.

Anyway, it seems to have gone over your head that low-wage jobs exist no matter how hard people work. Your theory is complete horse****. If every single person in the country worked exactly the same amount, had the same IQ, and the same education, there would still be janitors and cashiers.

In the world of variables, they are a constant.
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Nothing has gone over my head, yes if we lived in a world where everyone was hard workers we would still have low wage jobs. However we live in the real world and some people are lazy and it just so happens that in a capitalist society those lazy people end up at the bottom, its not a coincidence.
 
Crovax said:
Nothing has gone over my head, yes if we lived in a world where everyone was hard workers we would still have low wage jobs. However we live in the real world and some people are lazy and it just so happens that in a capitalist society those lazy people end up at the bottom, its not a coincidence.
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There are plenty of lazy people at the top and hard workers at the bottom. The free market isn't magical.

True, if you are super lazy, there is a good chance you'll never make much money. However, the idea that just because you work hard, you'll get out poverty? That's complete bull****.
 
whysoserious said:
There are plenty of lazy people at the top and hard workers at the bottom. The free market isn't magical.

True, if you are super lazy, there is a good chance you'll never make much money. However, the idea that just because you work hard, you'll get out poverty? That's complete bull****.
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its does take some level of intelligence also but it is essentially true that hard work will get you out of poverty. A base level job at walmart pays 150% of the federal poverty level, work at the same low level position for 12 years and you are at 300% of the federal poverty level. So joe schmo drops out of high school gets a job at walmart and by his 30th birthday hes making lower middle class money.
 
whysoserious said:
There are plenty of lazy people at the top and hard workers at the bottom. The free market isn't magical.

True, if you are super lazy, there is a good chance you'll never make much money. However, the idea that just because you work hard, you'll get out poverty? That's complete bull****.
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That's true. There's so much more to wealth than working hard. Personally, I'm not poor but I acknowledge that I'll likely never be rich, not because I think there are forces working to keep me down, but because I'm not willing to take the risks necessary. I think any "honest" job is honorable, but the notion that hard work should equal great wealth is simplistic. There's a reason some jobs are low wage.
 
Crovax said:
its does take some level of intelligence also but it is essentially true that hard work will get you out of poverty. A base level job at walmart pays 150% of the federal poverty level, work at the same low level position for 12 years and you are at 300% of the federal poverty level. So joe schmo drops out of high school gets a job at walmart and by his 30th birthday hes making lower middle class money.
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That's the theory, right? Except the time his boss told him he was lazy and didn't care about the company because he couldn't get to work during the gas crisis of 2008. Or he wasn't full time, so when he got hurt at work he didn't have insurance and he was fired. Or, like what happens to many, is they get tired of being treated like **** by the people like you who are in charge, so they go to another job, only to work for another guy like you.

I worked low-wage jobs from 16-29. I found it increasingly difficult to get recognized or promoted, regardless of how well I performed, because, quite frankly, no one really gives a **** or pays attention to those positions. Rarely do the morons who are their direct managers ever get promoted or move up, so there is no reason to examine the employee base for potential talent, and if they get frustrated, they can easily be replaced.
 
Meister said:
Any group does have a right to strike, and the company has a right to fire them.
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The company can try, but if the strike is successful everybody goes back to work.
 
whysoserious said:
That's the theory, right? Except the time his boss told him he was lazy and didn't care about the company because he couldn't get to work during the gas crisis of 2008. Or he wasn't full time, so when he got hurt at work he didn't have insurance and he was fired. Or, like what happens to many, is they get tired of being treated like **** by the people like you who are in charge, so they go to another job, only to work for another guy like you.

I worked low-wage jobs from 16-29. I found it increasingly difficult to get recognized or promoted, regardless of how well I performed, because, quite frankly, no one really gives a **** or pays attention to those positions. Rarely do the morons who are their direct managers ever get promoted or move up, so there is no reason to examine the employee base for potential talent, and if they get frustrated, they can easily be replaced.
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Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me

don't make excuses make improvements
 
X Factor said:
That's true. There's so much more to wealth than working hard. Personally, I'm not poor but I acknowledge that I'll likely never be rich, not because I think there are forces working to keep me down, but because I'm not willing to take the risks necessary. I think any "honest" job is honorable, but the notion that hard work should equal great wealth is simplistic. There's a reason some jobs are low wage.
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I agree with most of that. I feel the same way about my ability to break the "rich" threshold.

I've decided that I don't have any answers on how to fix it or if it's fixable, but I will always hate that there are people out there that put in a hard 40+ hours a week (most of them way more) and something as simple as needing new tires can ruin their year. And I'll continue to hate hearing people call them lazy - some of them may be lazy or even a good portion of them, but not all of them are and their situations suck hard enough that they don't need outside forces putting them down even more.
 
Crovax said:
Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me

don't make excuses make improvements
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I'm sorry that I don't like the fact that our current society requires 25% of the workforce to be irrelevant and poor.
 
whysoserious said:
I'm sorry that I don't like the fact that our current society requires 25% of the workforce to be irrelevant and poor.
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Lazy and stupid people will always be poor no matter what the system
 
X Factor said:
That's true. There's so much more to wealth than working hard. Personally, I'm not poor but I acknowledge that I'll likely never be rich, not because I think there are forces working to keep me down, but because I'm not willing to take the risks necessary. I think any "honest" job is honorable, but the notion that hard work should equal great wealth is simplistic. There's a reason some jobs are low wage.
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I dont think any one is saying that, hard work will get you to the middle class
 
whysoserious said:
I agree with most of that. I feel the same way about my ability to break the "rich" threshold.

I've decided that I don't have any answers on how to fix it or if it's fixable, but I will always hate that there are people out there that put in a hard 40+ hours a week (most of them way more) and something as simple as needing new tires can ruin their year. And I'll continue to hate hearing people call them lazy - some of them may be lazy or even a good portion of them, but not all of them are and their situations suck hard enough that they don't need outside forces putting them down even more.
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I can't find anything here to take much issue with, damn you.
 
Crovax said:
I dont think any one is saying that, hard work will get you to the middle class
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That's assuming you can stay where you were first employed. My brother works hard, but he keeps having to start over someplace else due to warehouse closings. By the same token, he did make the choice to not get a college degree and to leave the Air Force before he could retire so I totally get how a person's own decisions have a significant impact.
 
whysoserious said:
Are you saying that's a rule? Do you have any sort of statistic to show that?
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Let politicians, schoolteachers and administrators, community leaders, ministers and parents drill into children the message that in a free society, they enter adulthood with three major responsibilities: at least finish high school, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children.

Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class (defined as earning around $55,000 or more per year).
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Three Simple Rules Poor Teens Should Follow to Join the Middle Class | Brookings Institution
 
Helix said:
how hard is it for you to admit that most of them are hard working Americans who deserve more opportunities to pull themselves out of poverty?
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Not sure I would go with "most", but yeah, there are a hell of a lot of hard working Americans out there. Union and non alike. I will not dispute that. And I do not begrudge anyone the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty, I celebrate it.

Helix said:
you loathe labor unions? are you living in a company town, hopelessly in debt to your employer, or are you enjoying a two day weekend of dicking around on the internet and bitching about the lower socioeconomic class and how lazy they are? maybe you ought to think about that one for a minute.
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Perhaps I was a little harsh. I hold no animosity towards anyone who wants to be a member of a union. By the same token, I don't think people should be forced into a union. But, in my opinion, unions have become more of a partisan political force than they are an advocate for the working man.

And please, the "company town" is a thing of the past in this day and age, whether you are union, or non union. And if you want to claim that unions are responsible for that, fine. But unions of today are nothing like unions of yesteryear.

Just so we're clear. I am a self employed tradesman. I am non-union. If I am enjoying a two day weekend, it is because I have chosen to, and on my own dime.

Helix said:
no one wants to rob you of ****ing walmart. they are the nation's largest employer, though, and i would like to see them do more to help the average worker to reclaim some semblance of the standard of living that they used to have before manufacturing went to ****. and i'm willing to pay a little more for groceries to get there, because i'm already paying for it in taxes to supplement their artificially low incomes.
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Au contraire mon frere, you and your liberal brethren do want to rob me of Walmart as I know it. And exchange it for a high priced union shop.

What exactly do you mean by, "artificially low incomes"?
 
countryboy said:
Not sure I would go with "most", but yeah, there are a hell of a lot of hard working Americans out there. Union and non alike. I will not dispute that. And I do not begrudge anyone the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty, I celebrate it.
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yep, me too. we agree on that.

countryboy said:
Perhaps I was a little harsh. I hold no animosity towards anyone who wants to be a member of a union. By the same token, I don't think people should be forced into a union. But, in my opinion, unions have become more of a partisan political force than they are an advocate for the working man.
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this was definitely the case in the late 20th century. the pendulum can definitely swing both ways, though. i just see a need for organization in this sector. they have to be careful not to ask for stupid ****, though. job security and increased access to promotion is what they should be asking for, not a $20 an hour base salary.

countryboy said:
And please, the "company town" is a thing of the past in this day and age, whether you are union, or non union. And if you want to claim that unions are responsible for that, fine. But unions of today are nothing like unions of yesteryear.
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things like this really can happen again. the balance of power has really shifted. i work in micro / biochem research, and even i am forced to deal with a "great job, you're still fired" labor market. ****, i even had to work as an "independent contractor," and got promoted all the way up to my firing date. i'm still sore about that one.

countryboy said:
Just so we're clear. I am a self employed tradesman. I am non-union. If I am enjoying a two day weekend, it is because I have chosen to, and on my own dime.
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yeah, but a lot of people only enjoy a two day weekend because our ancestors fought their asses off for that.

countryboy said:
Au contraire mon frere, you and your liberal brethren do want to rob me of Walmart as I know it. And exchange it for a high priced union shop.
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i don't want to rob you of anything. but i would like to see Walmart treat its workers better, and labor organization is the best path that i can see to achieve that outcome.

countryboy said:
What exactly do you mean by, "artificially low incomes"?
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it means that you're paying a lot more than you think for those low prices, because a lot of those workers draw significant public assistance in lieu of salary.
 
Helix said:
yep, me too. we agree on that.



this was definitely the case in the late 20th century. the pendulum can definitely swing both ways, though. i just see a need for organization in this sector. they have to be careful not to ask for stupid ****, though. job security and increased access to promotion is what they should be asking for, not a $20 an hour base salary.



things like this really can happen again. the balance of power has really shifted. i work in micro / biochem research, and even i am forced to deal with a "great job, you're still fired" labor market. ****, i even had to work as an "independent contractor," and got promoted all the way up to my firing date. i'm still sore about that one.



yeah, but a lot of people only enjoy a two day weekend because our ancestors fought their asses off for that.



i don't want to rob you of anything. but i would like to see Walmart treat its workers better, and labor organization is the best path that i can see to achieve that outcome.



it means that you're paying a lot more than you think for those low prices, because a lot of those workers draw significant public assistance in lieu of salary.
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Valid points bro. I may not agree with you on everything, but I don't think we're as far apart as I originally thought. Your heart is in the right place, sorry for implying otherwise earlier. :)
 
countryboy said:
Valid points bro. I may not agree with you on everything, but I don't think we're as far apart as I originally thought. Your heart is in the right place, sorry for implying otherwise earlier. :)
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sorry for my harsh tone, as well. i'm currently fighting off the plague, though that's not a good excuse for hostility. i enjoyed the discussion.
 
Helix said:
sorry for my harsh tone, as well. i'm currently fighting off the plague, though that's not a good excuse for hostility. i enjoyed the discussion.
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Hey, no problemo. If I can't take it, I shouldn't dish it out eh? :mrgreen:

I enjoyed it as well. Thanks. Get well soon. :)
 
countryboy said:
Hey, no problemo. If I can't take it, I shouldn't dish it out eh? :mrgreen:

I enjoyed it as well. Thanks. Get well soon. :)
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thank you.
 
Helix said:
ok.

i'm a loyal employee. make a tree of positions for me to climb, where i earn a bit a bit more at each branch. and if i continue to be a loyal and hard working employee, help me to escape poverty through my hard work. hell, go hog wild and even encourage me to attend school through partnerships with colleges. to pay for this, charge five bucks for the damned tide instead of four.
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I am sure they already have that. you can go from a normal cashier to a lead cashier to a cashier supervisor.
or you might have to go to a different area in the store say from cashier to hardware or toys for a promotion, but if you limit yourself then you can't blame the company

seriously. we can either give people a chance to pull themselves out of poverty, or we can keep our four dollar tide and pour a bunch of money into public assistance. we all would prefer that the person working at walmart should have a chance to work his or her way up the ladder. just pay a little more for **** there, and we can probably get that done.
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your not going to do that at walmart. not nearly as much money if these people weren't working at all or do you disagree?
not everyone can work themselves up the ladder. they don't have the mentality to do it or they don't have the work ethic.

just me I work with plenty of people that can easily do anything in the world and the people that are in upper management started where they were. they just want a pay check.

but i'm sure that this post pisses you off somehow. waiting for your long response, arguing that your four dollar instead of five dollar tide is precious to you, and that we're better off letting walmart workers be poor and uneducated, or that walmart has already addressed and completely solved these problems, and that their workers are just too lazy to take advantage of the opportunities.
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well doubling their salary wouldn't put it at 5 dollar it would put it more at 8 or 9 dollars. you basically shut walmart out of the group of people they are targeting which is lower and lower middle income people.

it doesn't piss me off at all. it shows that you really don't understand walmarts business very well. sure they could pay the same as Costco no problem. they can also charge as much as Costco does to keep that pay.

nope they aren't because some are working and going to school etc because they realize that the only way to make money is to get an education.
 
ludin said:
I am sure they already have that. you can go from a normal cashier to a lead cashier to a cashier supervisor.
or you might have to go to a different area in the store say from cashier to hardware or toys for a promotion, but if you limit yourself then you can't blame the company



your not going to do that at walmart. not nearly as much money if these people weren't working at all or do you disagree?
not everyone can work themselves up the ladder. they don't have the mentality to do it or they don't have the work ethic.

just me I work with plenty of people that can easily do anything in the world and the people that are in upper management started where they were. they just want a pay check.



well doubling their salary wouldn't put it at 5 dollar it would put it more at 8 or 9 dollars. you basically shut walmart out of the group of people they are targeting which is lower and lower middle income people.

it doesn't piss me off at all. it shows that you really don't understand walmarts business very well. sure they could pay the same as Costco no problem. they can also charge as much as Costco does to keep that pay.

nope they aren't because some are working and going to school etc because they realize that the only way to make money is to get an education.
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i think that we should guarantee post secondary education or job training for everyone. not doing that is costing us too much money.

and i see no reason to let any kid drop out of high school. that is really costing us money.
 
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