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Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms[W:169]

Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
Yes, the federal LAW can be changed, but there are state laws that say the same things. And no, schools having to spend that money that otherwise is needed desperately for you know, education, on one or two students is absolutely absurd.
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If states are changing their laws to allow transgendered students in bathrooms, that would change any state laws pertaining to it. The OSHA regulation does not specify how a person's gender is supposed to be judged, so it would leave it up to the states.

No laws would need to be changed to add bathrooms. And this thread is about changing the laws in certain states.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

Hicup said:
Bull****.. Maybe not wearing a dress to "identify" a girl, but come on man? Boys and girls don't need to be "taught" anything about gender. We figure it out all by ourselves.

Tim-
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Children don't know there's any problem with that unless they are taught to believe there is a problem with that. Being a parent easily shows that fact. We figure it out due to the clues around us, what we learn by observation. If you are raised in a family where gender differences are not emphasized, then it becomes a nonissue.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
If states are changing their laws to allow transgendered students in bathrooms, that would change any state laws pertaining to it. The OSHA regulation does not specify how a person's gender is supposed to be judged, so it would leave it up to the states.

No laws would need to be changed to add bathrooms. And this thread is about changing the laws in certain states.
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Yeah, there's only the expense and the space involved to serve a very few mentally disturbed students. And the extra bathroom, which do you serve with that, the boys who think they should be girls or the girls who think they should be boys?
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
Yeah, there's only the expense and the space involved to serve a very few mentally disturbed students. And the extra bathroom, which do you serve with that, the boys who think they should be girls or the girls who think they should be boys?
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There is no expense at all if they are simply using the locker room/bathroom of the gender they identify as. They will simply use the other restrooms.

And most schools are already switching to single stall showers due to issues with most students not wanting to shower at school because of feeling uncomfortable around others of their own sex now or time constraints.

Shower stalls stay dry at most public schools - Sun Sentinel
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
Children don't know there's any problem with that unless they are taught to believe there is a problem with that. Being a parent easily shows that fact. We figure it out due to the clues around us, what we learn by observation. If you are raised in a family where gender differences are not emphasized, then it becomes a nonissue.
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And how many families do you know where gender differences are not emphasized? Not to mention do these families watch TV, go to the movies, read books? Come on dude , you're stretching like Stretch Armstrong on this one.


Tim-
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

Hicup said:
And how many families do you know where gender differences are not emphasized? Not to mention do these families watch TV, go to the movies, read books? Come on dude , you're stretching like Stretch Armstrong on this one.


Tim-
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In reality, mine. Most of the girls in my family weren't raised wearing dresses. While we might have had gender specific clothes, we actually had a lot of clothes that either gender could wear. Even my husband and I share socks and some T-shirts.

But it doesn't matter how many don't emphasize it, only that having an issue with someone of a certain sex dressing a certain way or acting a certain way is something that is taught, not something that children are born feeling.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
There is no expense at all if they are simply using the locker room/bathroom of the gender they identify as. They will simply use the other restrooms.

And most schools are already switching to single stall showers due to issues with most students not wanting to shower at school because of feeling uncomfortable around others of their own sex now or time constraints.

Shower stalls stay dry at most public schools - Sun Sentinel
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And there would be less expense then if we just used one shower locker room for both sexes and the mentally disturbed. But that's not going to happen.

From your article:
Eyes bulge at the mere mention of showering around other students, which was common — mandatory even — in middle schools and high schools across the country just a decade or two ago.
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It was a huge mistake moving away from this.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
And there would be less expense then if we just used one shower locker room for both sexes and the mentally disturbed. But that's not going to happen.

From your article:

It was a huge mistake moving away from this.
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You cannot force students to shower. They simply won't do it and parents will sue if you try to, especially if it leads to their children being ridiculed over something concerning their body or get bullied or something in the showers. I'm all for compromising with single shower stalls, which would help both issues.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
In reality, mine. Most of the girls in my family weren't raised wearing dresses. While we might have had gender specific clothes, we actually had a lot of clothes that either gender could wear. Even my husband and I share socks and some T-shirts.

But it doesn't matter how many don't emphasize it, only that having an issue with someone of a certain sex dressing a certain way or acting a certain way is something that is taught, not something that children are born feeling.
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No, not in reality yours, unless you wore unisex underwear and didn't watch a lick of TV or go out into society at all, including schooling. And yes, we learn gender roles from the society around us, it's basic socialization.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
You cannot force students to shower. They simply won't do it and parents will sue if you try to, especially if it leads to their children being ridiculed over something concerning their body or get bullied or something in the showers. I'm all for compromising with single shower stalls, which would help both issues.
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We had no problem requiring kids to shower before. And no, single stalls do not address common dressing areas. Again, there's absolutely no need to be going through this rigmarole for what is essentially a very, very few mentally disturbed individuals.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
No, not in reality yours, unless you wore unisex underwear and didn't watch a lick of TV or go out into society at all, including schooling. And yes, we learn gender roles from the society around us, it's basic socialization.
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Can you see my underwear? Many women wear men's underwear. What does watching TV have to do with emphasizing gender?

Since we learn gender roles from society, then it means we do not have those roles set at birth. This means that others having an issue with someone not complying with the gender role of the physical birth gender is that "someone's" issue, something that "someone" was taught.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
We had no problem requiring kids to shower before. And no, single stalls do not address common dressing areas. Again, there's absolutely no need to be going through this rigmarole for what is essentially a very, very few mentally disturbed individuals.
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They address a lot of issues, since you can easily cover up prior to leaving the shower stall. No one sees your private parts if you are covered.

It wouldn't be just for transgendered students. It would be for getting students to be more comfortable in the showers.

Maybe we should just teach children to be more comfortable around nakedness to begin with, then it wouldn't matter at all to begin with.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
Can you see my underwear? Many women wear men's underwear. What does watching TV have to do with emphasizing gender?

Since we learn gender roles from society, then it means we do not have those roles set at birth. This means that others having an issue with someone not complying with the gender role of the physical birth gender is that "someone's" issue, something that "someone" was taught.
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First you say that we are socialized into gender roles and then can't figure out how watching TV has anything to do with that? :lamo

And what the hell does my not being able to see your underwear have to do with what we were talking about? You said your home did not separate by gender. And yet you were trained to wear different clothing than the boys at the very least.
 
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Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
Maybe we should just teach children to be more comfortable around nakedness to begin with, then it wouldn't matter at all to begin with.
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That is a possibility- with parental consent of course.

Maybe we should also have comprehensive vouchers that would enable parents to choose the schools with the bath room policies and academic curriculumn that they most agree with.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
First you say that we are socialized into gender roles and then can't figure out how watching TV has anything to do with that? :lamo
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That wasn't what was being discussed. Your family does have a much bigger influence on our social learning than the rest of the world, especially during the formative years, which begin prior to when it is healthy to allow children to watch a lot of TV, particularly TV that would be most likely to try to enforce or influence gender roles. If you have a strong foundation of gender roles not being that big of a deal, then it is highly unlikely that this view will be changed by TV viewing, no matter what TV shows. Considering any family is going to take the time to downplay gender roles is likely to not allow those teachings to be undermined by outside influences, I don't see that as an issue.

And TV doesn't teach us to hate people who are different or do not conform to social gender roles, that would be family who does that.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

Cryptic said:
That is a possibility- with parental consent of course.

Maybe we should also have comprehensive vouchers that would enable parents to choose the schools with the bath room policies and academic curriculumn that they most agree with.
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I'm for families teaching this. Society could do as they are doing and emphasize that gender roles aren't that big of a deal. Families who don't approve of this can home school or private school their children.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
They address a lot of issues, since you can easily cover up prior to leaving the shower stall. No one sees your private parts if you are covered.

It wouldn't be just for transgendered students. It would be for getting students to be more comfortable in the showers.

Maybe we should just teach children to be more comfortable around nakedness to begin with, then it wouldn't matter at all to begin with.
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Good grief, have you never been in a locker room? And yes, requiring showers used to be how we taught folks not to be uncomfortable with same sex nudity. That is unacceptable now I guess.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
Good grief, have you never been in a locker room? And yes, requiring showers used to be how we taught folks not to be uncomfortable with same sex nudity. That is unacceptable now I guess.
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Obviously it didn't work now did it? That is likely due to the fact that so many Americans have this stupid issue with nudity and teach it to their children. I haven't had much of an issue at all showering or getting undressed in front of others due mainly to my mother who was very unconcerned with being naked. She would answer the door in a towel or even naked because it wasn't a big deal to her. It was just a body. I was told she has always felt this way, even when she was younger.

There really isn't any reason students/people should feel uncomfortable with opposite sex nudity, especially in a showering environment. It is just a body.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
That wasn't what was being discussed. Your family does have a much bigger influence on our social learning than the rest of the world, especially during the formative years, which begin prior to when it is healthy to allow children to watch a lot of TV, particularly TV that would be most likely to try to enforce or influence gender roles. If you have a strong foundation of gender roles not being that big of a deal, then it is highly unlikely that this view will be changed by TV viewing, no matter what TV shows. Considering any family is going to take the time to downplay gender roles is likely to not allow those teachings to be undermined by outside influences, I don't see that as an issue.

And TV doesn't teach us to hate people who are different or do not conform to social gender roles, that would be family who does that.
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Most all of that is inaccurate to say the least. Since the advent of television it has been used as a babysitter for young children. What the heck do you think cartoons were for. It was one of initial selling points of TV, to teach children. The censorship boards, the seven never say words, separate beds in sitcoms, all because TV was for children and we don't want them picking up those nasties.

Certainly your parents took you out when you were very young. Billboards, how you saw people around you interacting with one another, what people wore, how they treated you as opposed to others, like boys, ALL that had a hand in teaching you about gender roles.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
Obviously it didn't work now did it? That is likely due to the fact that so many Americans have this stupid issue with nudity and teach it to their children. I haven't had much of an issue at all showering or getting undressed in front of others due mainly to my mother who was very unconcerned with being naked. She would answer the door in a towel or even naked because it wasn't a big deal to her. It was just a body. I was told she has always felt this way, even when she was younger.

There really isn't any reason students/people should feel uncomfortable with opposite sex nudity, especially in a showering environment. It is just a body.
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It worked just fine until some nimrods decided to do away with it.

As to that last, I agree with you, but then I come from a day and place when we had a shared outhouse at home and no swimming pools or bathing suits.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
Most all of that is inaccurate to say the least. Since the advent of television it has been used as a babysitter for young children. What the heck do you think cartoons were for. It was one of initial selling points of TV, to teach children. The censorship boards, the seven never say words, separate beds in sitcoms, all because TV was for children and we don't want them picking up those nasties.

Certainly your parents took you out when you were very young. Billboards, how you saw people around you interacting with one another, what people wore, how they treated you as opposed to others, like boys, ALL that had a hand in teaching you about gender roles.
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No, it has only been used as a "babysitter" to certain parents, and even then, most of those control what their children watch. The majority of TV shows for small children (which is the age where these things are learned) are not going to emphasize gender roles. It simply won't be a big deal. This is especially true now days. I've watched children's TV quite often with my children. Not a whole lot of gender roles teaching going on. (Although there is actually a lot of the opposite being emphasized, that children can do and be who they want to be.)

Going out you still would not see as much as you would learn from your family. Most hate and/or intolerance is taught by families. You are trying to shift blame. Is there a reason for this?

http://sagepub.com/upm-data/39367_4.pdf

One of my earliest memories involves being told that I could go places with my grandfather despite him not approving at first because I am a girl. He didn't want to take me with him to races or camping or fishing because he believed those were things boys did, not girls. When my mother told him that he didn't get to take my brother to those places unless he was also willing to take me to such opportunities, he decided to simply take me. Once I was older, my grandfather enjoyed taking me places like that. It encouraged some of his friends to take their daughters/granddaughters as well.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

clownboy said:
It worked just fine until some nimrods decided to do away with it.

As to that last, I agree with you, but then I come from a day and place when we had a shared outhouse at home and no swimming pools or bathing suits.
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Many of those "nimrods" are the same ones who don't want transgendered students in those showers/restrooms.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

roguenuke said:
Obviously it didn't work now did it? That is likely due to the fact that so many Americans have this stupid issue with nudity and teach it to their children. I haven't had much of an issue at all showering or getting undressed in front of others due mainly to my mother who was very unconcerned with being naked. She would answer the door in a towel or even naked because it wasn't a big deal to her. It was just a body. I was told she has always felt this way, even when she was younger.

There really isn't any reason students/people should feel uncomfortable with opposite sex nudity, especially in a showering environment. It is just a body.
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I don't like locker rooms and such; when I was swimming daily at a community pool - at lunch - I did the naked/group shower thing because I had to get the chlorine off. But I admit it would have been better had I never had such hangups.

Anyone watch Battlestar Galactica? Where men and women shared quarters and bathrooms and showers? Sure wish we could get there.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

paddymcdougall said:
I don't like locker rooms and such; when I was swimming daily at a community pool - at lunch - I did the naked/group shower thing because I had to get the chlorine off. But I admit it would have been better had I never had such hangups.

Anyone watch Battlestar Galactica? Where men and women shared quarters and bathrooms and showers? Sure wish we could get there.
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Starship Troopers is the famous one for it. I have no real issue with such things. I have been the only woman changing with a bunch of men before while in the Navy. Sometimes you have to just suck it up.
 
Re: Schools propose: Let boys into girls locker rooms

Hicup said:
Ah, but lets just say that it does say that, you would not be in favor of that, correct? ;)

Tim-
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Ohferchristsake.
No, I would not be in favour of some blogger's fantasy about the girls shower room actually happening. What about you? What if, say, a girl declared her/himself to be transgendered- would you let her/him shower with the boys?
Pretty dumb scenario, innit?
 
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