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Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them [W:182]

Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

longview said:
You may be correct, but then Berlin may have received our atomic attention before Japan,
we did have a Europe first policy.
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Possibly, although I think the decision to nuke Berlin would have been far more difficult for us than the decision to nuke Hiroshima.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

CRUE CAB said:
Yea, and live right here on the Space Coast. But I don't see what the Holocaust has to do with it?
Very good possibility that German rocket scientists had no idea of the Holocaust.
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They had full knowledge of the fact that slave labor was being used and that they were suffering under appalling conditions while manufacturing their V-1 and V-2 rockets. And while they may not have had full knowledge of the holocaust, like other Germans they were fully aware that something terrible was happening to the Jews.

No, there is no possibility that German rocket scientists weren't aware of what was going on in their own facilities.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

humbolt said:
No, it's actually indisputable that the Nazi experiments were inhumane. We know this because we are human. Any benefit that could be derived from such horror is a plus - it gives the victims an elegant satisfaction of sorts.
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You big bleeding heart liberal....:lamo
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

CRUE CAB said:
Yea, and live right here on the Space Coast. But I don't see what the Holocaust has to do with it?
Very good possibility that German rocket scientists had no idea of the Holocaust.
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The post you responded to asking the question wasn't talking about the holocaust but rather taking on the Nazi scientists before the Russians got to them.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

Wiggen said:
They had full knowledge of the fact that slave labor was being used and that they were suffering under appalling conditions while manufacturing their V-1 and V-2 rockets. And while they may not have had full knowledge of the holocaust, like other Germans they were fully aware that something terrible was happening to the Jews.

No, there is no possibility that German rocket scientists weren't aware of what was going on in their own facilities.
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Not saying you are wrong, but I don't buy it.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

apdst said:
The Soviets hardly and wouldn't have defeated the Germans without Britain and The U.S.
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See, I knew you'd eventually give FDR credit for something!

Actually, you could make a case for the fact that the Nazi invasion of the USSR was won by the harsh Russian winter as much as anything. That and Hitler's hubris.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

clownboy said:
The post you responded to asking the question wasn't talking about the holocaust but rather taking on the Nazi scientists before the Russians got to them.
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I know, but how does any thing short of their rocket experience mean anything. There is no real way to know what they knew or didn't know about slave labor and or the extermination of jews.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Wiggen said:
Yeah, why would we care about silly things like genocide and torture and obscene medical experiments on prisoners? If I'm a 'bleeding heart' because I find that stuff appalling, so be it.
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Loving your high school worldview.

To use their research for the advancement of mankind as the Americans and Soviets did is the right way to go, even though it is surely morally questionable as you said. Life is full of hard choices.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

northwinds said:
Exactly........
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Ah so you're saying that Hitler had a perfectly good reason to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia? Right?
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Hatuey said:
Ah so you're saying that Hitler had a perfectly good reason to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia? Right?
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The further you dig I guarantee you the less you will like what you see (especially when you're dealing with northwinds)...
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

rocket88 said:
See, I knew you'd eventually give FDR credit for something!

Actually, you could make a case for the fact that the Nazi invasion of the USSR was won by the harsh Russian winter as much as anything. That and Hitler's hubris.
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In the big picture, the winter of 41/42 had little to with it, since the Germans were on the advance again, come springtime.

It was the material and intel support the Soviets received that made the difference.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

CRUE CAB said:
Decades old news.
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Yep. And you can add to the list of Presidents who helped keep them in the US - Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Bush. Not sure if there were very many still around by the time H. W. was Pres, but in his previous capacity in the CIA he probably helped.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

CRUE CAB said:
I know, but how does any thing short of their rocket experience mean anything. There is no real way to know what they knew or didn't know about slave labor and or the extermination of jews.
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Slave labor[edit]

SS General Hans Kammler, who as an engineer had constructed several concentration camps, including Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers in the rocket program. Arthur Rudolph, chief engineer of the V-2 rocket factory at Peenemünde, endorsed this idea in April 1943 when a labor shortage developed. More people died building the V-2 rockets than were killed by it as a weapon.[31] Von Braun admitted visiting the plant at Mittelwerk on many occasions, and called conditions at the plant "repulsive," but claimed never to have witnessed any deaths or beatings, although it had become clear to him by 1944 that deaths had occurred.[32] He denied ever having visited the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp itself, where 20,000 died from illness, beatings, hangings and intolerable working conditions.[33]

In Wernher von Braun: Crusader for Space, numerous statements by von Braun show he was aware of the conditions but felt completely unable to change them. A friend quotes von Braun speaking of a visit to Mittelwerk:


It is hellish. My spontaneous reaction was to talk to one of the SS guards, only to be told with unmistakable harshness that I should mind my own business, or find myself in the same striped fatigues!... I realized that any attempt of reasoning on humane grounds would be utterly futile.[34]

When asked if von Braun could have protested against the brutal treatment of the slave laborers, von Braun team member Konrad Dannenberg told The Huntsville Times, "If he had done it, in my opinion, he would have been shot on the spot."[35]

Others claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt that von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[36] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[37] However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[38]

Proof exists however that von Braun himself went to KZ Buchenwald to pick slave laborers (letter to Albin Sawatzki dated August 15, 1944)[citation needed]. Former inmate Adam Cabala reported: "[...] also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty and bestiality during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. [...] But Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses" [39]
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Wernher von Braun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

apdst said:
In the big picture, the winter of 41/42 had little to with it, since the Germans were on the advance again, come springtime.

It was the material and intel support the Soviets received that made the difference.
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There's no denying it helped. Having Hitler engaged in the East certainly was a big help to the effort on the other side.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Luftwaffe said:
The further you dig I guarantee you the less you will like what you see (especially when you're dealing with northwinds)...
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I'm trying to see where the rabbit holes and who agrees with him. ;)
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

rocket88 said:
Yep. And you can add to the list of Presidents who helped keep them in the US - Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Bush. Not sure if there were very many still around by the time H. W. was Pres, but in his previous capacity in the CIA he probably helped.
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World domination has strange bedfellows.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

Wiggen said:
I was never opposed to taking them to keep them out of Russian hands. What bothers me is how they became laudable heroes of the cold war. Wehrner Von Braun became an American Icon = a man who was responsible for the horrible deaths of thousands of slave laborers and who never, to my knowledge, even apologized for his Nazi past. Again, you guys want to give credit to these monsters for everything good that has happened since the end of World War II. Do you also include the former concentration camp guards in this admiration, or is it only related to rocket scientists?

http://dora.uah.edu/engineers.html

And please don't attempt to portray me as ignorant of the Second World war. I'm willing to discuss that with you any time you choose.
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I haven't painted you anything. Your words though? That is another story.

Who is "lauding" them as heros? Hm? How about this. Why don't you deliver me a single quote of me giving credit where it isn't due? Or where I said Nazis were responsible for everything good?

This outrage seems fake. Cui bono? I seem to recall some comments directed at republicans earlier. Is this just as hom?
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

rocket88 said:
See, I knew you'd eventually give FDR credit for something!

Actually, you could make a case for the fact that the Nazi invasion of the USSR was won by the harsh Russian winter as much as anything. That and Hitler's hubris.
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I have a story in an old History Book, about after Napoleon left Moscow,
The Czar ordered his general to pursue the French army, and give battle.
The General supposedly told his adjutant, after the meeting,
That he had decided to let General Winter fight the next battle!
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Putsch said:
Of course humans defined it. You are a human, are you not?
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Then in the absence of another defining entity, we are perfectly capable of defining that which is inhumane, as well.

It was generally accepted in ancient Greece that adult men having sexualised relationships with young boys was perfectly acceptable. In fact, it was noble. It was generally accepted in the 19th century that masturbation would lead to blindness.
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We aren't talking about those times. Cultures and societies change over time. The definition of what is inhumane seems to remain relatively constant, and there's a reason for that.


I'm not reaching, sir, I'm actively and openly defending it. Defensive measures against your enemies is always justified, as liberal democracies can attest.
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Seems like it to me. As far as I know, the Jews had no army to field in WWII. No navy. No air force. Not even a single tank. Perhaps you can describe the nature of their threat to the Reich.



In all streets in all parts of the world. The world is imploding and it is being helped along by capitalists, Jews and Muslims alike.
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I see lots of problems, but I don't think the world is imploding. I certainly don't lay such problems at the feet of capitalists, Jews or Muslims anymore than I would socialists, Christians or Hindus.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

rocket88 said:
You big bleeding heart liberal....:lamo
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Yeah. I know. Isn't that just like me? Shush. I'm arguing with a Nazi.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Cardinal said:
I'm not nonchalant about it, I just don't see how it's especially breaking news. But anyway, for those guilty of atrocities, I don't mind the idea of using their expertise to advance our technology, then taking them out back and shooting them.
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Yeah. To put it in perspective, this news is technically older than the moon landing itself.
 
Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

humbolt said:
Seems like it to me. As far as I know, the Jews had no army to field in WWII. No navy. No air force. Not even a single tank. Perhaps you can describe the nature of their threat to the Reich.
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It's not a military problem, it's a racial one. The Jew deracinates society. They tear out the roots. A real people derives its genius from the land: the sun, the sea, the soil. This is how they know themselves. But the Jew doesn't have soil. Take the great Jewish minds: Marx, Freud, Einstein. What have they given us: communism, infantile sexuality and the atom bomb. In a mere three centuries since these guys emerged from the ghettos of Europe, they've taken us from a world built on order and reason and hurled us into a chaos of class warfare, irrational urges and relativity, a world where the very existence of matter and meaning is in doubt. Why? Because it is the deepest impulse of the Jewish soul to unravel the very fabric of life until nothing is left but thread, nothing but nothingness. Nothingness without end. It is an eternal enemy of civilisation and Hitler new this and sought with all his might to defend his people from it.
 
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Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

Putsch said:
It's not a military problem, it's a racial one. The Jew deracinates society. They tear out the roots. A real people derives its genius from the land: the sun, the sea, the soil. This is how they know themselves. But the Jew doesn't have soil.
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Thanks, and I'll apologize in advance for parsing your comments here. I understand that you intend for them to be taken as a whole, but I can't address them in like manner because as you say, I'm rather inarticulate.

My understanding is somewhat opposite. Real genius is revealed when any person can rise above that immediately surrounding them to perceive things larger than the simple sum of observation, and this is in no way dependent on race, religion, or ethnicity.



Take the great Jewish minds: Marx, Freud, Einstein. What have they given us: communism, infantile sexuality and the atom bomb. In a mere three centuries since these guys emerged from the ghettos of Europe, they've taken us from a world built on order and reason and hurled us into a chaos of class warfare, irrational urges and relativity, a world where the very existence of matter and meaning is in doubt.
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You're certainly attributing a lot of chaos to a relatively small group of people who's demonstrated intentions and subsequent results are precisely the opposite. However much you might disagree with the efforts and results of the three you mention, it is indisputable that all three were in search of greater human understanding of ourselves, how we manage to survive and grow, and a greater understanding of the universe surrounding us. As I mentioned earlier, I can put a rifle in front of you for you to use. How you use it is another matter entirely, and that decision rests solely in your hands. The same applies here.


Why? Because it is the deepest impulse of the Jewish soul to unravel the very fabric of life until nothing is left but thread, nothing but nothingness. Nothingness without end. It is an internal enemy of civilisation and Hitler new this and sought with all his might to defend him and his people from it.
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I think the deepest impulse of the Jewish soul is to spend eternity with God, and I don't view that as a bad thing at all. Just the opposite, in fact. Must be that western centric attitude coming out.
 
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