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School's Nation of Islam handout paints Founding Fathers as racists [W:293]

ecofarm said:
:lamo
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I continue to accept your inability to respond as an implicit acknowledgement that I am correct. Thank you for your tacit admission. :)

They all note blacks owned slaves. Spare us this BS.
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I was in college before I found this out, and I went through public education in Alabama, where if anything you would expect a more pro-nuanced-approach to the Evil White Southerners than the rest of the nation. And I didn't even find it out due to my classes, but my own reading. I call shenanigans and again demand that you demonstrate your idiotic claim that slavery as it is discussed in the US isn't overwhelmingly about those evil whites abusing those poor blacks.
 
ecofarm said:
So? The rest of us are capable of examining a historical figure in both historical and modern context. Just because you personally have a problem with modern context is no reason to pretend the perspective garners no insight.




Blacks are not cows. They're people.

And, for the record, the act of eating a cheeseburger CAN be judged TODAY as immoral, without cows proving to be intelligent.
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Judging an historical figure based on a morality that that was not operative at the time of his life will likely lead to incorrect conclusions about the person. It's analogus to changing the rules of the game after the outcome has been determined.

What insight do you hope to glean about Jefferson by applying modern standards regarding slavery to him. Or even better to Caesar Augustus? Slavery was a completely accepted practice in the ancient world. Was Augustus an immoral man because we view slavery as immoral?

Blacks are not cows. True but irrelevant. I'm not equating the two and you are smart enough to know that.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Were African Americans given the right to vote? Were African Americans given the same rights? No.
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No? Dude, you don't even know what the Three-Fifths Compromise is and your suddenly an historical authority on what rights black folks had prior to 1865?
 
Gaius46 said:
Judging an historical figure based on a morality that that was not operative at the time of his life will likely lead to incorrect conclusions about the person. It's analogus to changing the rules of the game after the outcome has been determined.
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In life, the rules change. Pretending this is not so, and putting ones head in the sand regarding racism, is just willful ignorance.

What insight do you hope to glean about Jefferson by applying modern standards regarding slavery to him.
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His morality from an objective perspective. I'm sorry if an objective perspective offends you, but it can and should be included with a historical context assessment.

Or even better to Caesar Augustus? Slavery was a completely accepted practice in the ancient world. Was Augustus an immoral man because we view slavery as immoral?
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He was immoral for that and countless other atrocities. Spare us the idol worship.


By your standards, some backwoods redneck racist piece of **** is not really a racist because everyone in his town is racist. That's apologism, not moral assessment.
 
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apdst said:
No? Dude, you don't even know what the Three-Fifths Compromise is and your suddenly an historical authority on what rights black folks had prior to 1865?
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Coming from you the all might all knowing. But Ill ask again: Were African Americans given the right to vote? Were African Americans given the same rights?
 
apdst said:
No? Dude, you don't even know what the Three-Fifths Compromise is and your suddenly an historical authority on what rights black folks had prior to 1865?
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Like--did you not go to school, or what? Common knowledge, man. That 3/5 part of your precious constitution just proves the white slave-owning men who started Amerikkka saw African-Americans as sub-human--not even real people. Just go to any authoritative source--the Daily Kos, MediaMatters, MSNBC, etc. if you doubt that.
 
cpwill said:
The founders by and large weren't racist. You are confusing a system of slavery with an intellectual construct that was later used to justify it.



Because it's not, actually, all the time. It is, in fact, pretty rare that we hear about slavery in a non white-person-owning-black-people context.
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If, however, certain members of that generation argued the inherent inferiority of, say, blacks, that would constitute racism.
 
mike2810 said:
I agree slavery is/was wrong. Not my point. One or a few voices does not set the social acceptable norm at the time.

We had a civil war to pretty much make the change , did we not?
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No, slavery was wrong in 1860. The Civil War didn't make it wrong. Jefferson owning slaves (and keeping one as his mistress) isn't admirable because it was 1776. There's nothing admirable about Washington owning slaves. To point out the irony of these men proclaiming that all men were entitled to certain inalienable rights while owning other human beings is a good thing.
 
ecofarm said:
:lamo



They all note blacks owned slaves. Spare us this BS.

There's no conspiracy against whites in highschool history textbooks. Your persecution complex is imagined.
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Are you claiming that there were no black slave owners in America?
 
Wiggen said:
No, slavery was wrong in 1860. The Civil War didn't make it wrong. Jefferson owning slaves (and keeping one as his mistress) isn't admirable because it was 1776. There's nothing admirable about Washington owning slaves. To point out the irony of these men proclaiming that all men were entitled to certain inalienable rights while owning other human beings is a good thing.
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There is a lucrative slave trade in yye ME.
 
apdst said:
Are you claiming that there were no black slave owners in America?
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See, the problem is people can't read. It's not that black slave owners are hidden from public knowledge in a conspiracy against white people, it's that some people can't read at all and thus they have no ****ing idea what's in a highschool textbook. To them, it's all a big conspiracy.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Coming from you the all might all knowing. But Ill ask again: Were African Americans given the right to vote? Were African Americans given the same rights?
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Some states, yes. Some states, no. Freedmen could vote in Virginia. Freedmen were illegal in Ohio.
 
apdst said:
Some states, yes. Some states, no. Freedmen could vote in Virginia. Freedmen were illegal in Ohio.
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Were they given the same rights as those protected under the bill of rights? Yes or no?
 
ecofarm said:
See, the problem is people can't read. It's not that black slave owners are hidden from public knowledge in a conspiracy against white people, it's that some people can't read at all and thus they have no ****ing idea what's in a highschool textbook. To them, it's all a big conspiracy.
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Care to answer the question?
 
apdst said:
Are you claiming that there were no black slave owners in America?
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His post literally said the opposite so why don't you tell us all how you came to this conclusion.
 
Fiddytree said:
If, however, certain members of that generation argued the inherent inferiority of, say, blacks, that would constitute racism.
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You would have to distinguish between inherent inferiority in their persons and inherent inferiority in their conditions. For example, you will get lots of folks speaking of the American Indians as savages, living rude, short, ignorant lives outside of civilization, etc; that is a cultural argument. It is not a racial one. Inherent, for example, in TR's belief that it was the White Man's responsibility to raise up the other peoples' of the Earth, is the assumption that they had the basic inherent qualities capable of supporting equivalent cultural and political achievements, and lacked the training, education, or structures to do so without help.
 
apdst said:
Some states, yes! Some states, no! How hard is that to understand??
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This is about the founders. Not states. Did the US Constitution give same rights to blacks?
 
Deuce said:
Nope. Only Christians have that right to pass out religious materials at school.
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So do you think this teacher shouldn't have handed out this pamphlet at school, or that Christians teachers should be allowed to hand out pamphlets as well?
 
ecofarm said:
See, the problem is people can't read. It's not that black slave owners are hidden from public knowledge in a conspiracy against white people, it's that some people can't read at all and thus they have no ****ing idea what's in a highschool textbook. To them, it's all a big conspiracy.
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:shrug: it wasn't in my highschool textbooks - and I was in AP US History and scored a 5 (the highest you can score) on the exam.
 
Deuce said:
His post literally said the opposite so why don't you tell us all how you came to this conclusion.
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Ok, tell us what he meant when said black slave owners is bull****.
 
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