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Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants, Sa

Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

By whose standard?

The Laws of Armed Conflict.

Children in targeted areas are afraid of the blue sky and exhibit PTSD symptoms. I'm not arguing against their effectiveness, just that they are a recruitment platform, especially how willy nilly and indiscriminately we've used them.

:shrug: the available literature suggests that the "bomb one terrorist, create more terrorists" mantra does not actually show up once you do the math. Nor do we utilize drones in a willy, nilly, or indiscriminate manner as you suggest. Quite the opposite, in fact. And the numbers also tell us that more children suffer from any other targeting method available. The options? They all result in greater civilian casualties.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Your experiences are not universal.

I oversaw the targeting efforts for a Corps-Level Command. Hint: that's a pretty broad overview.

And yes, we do blow up civilians, but we just don't call them that, as if they appear to be of military age, they're then considered legitimate targets.

We call them "collateral damage" and their estimation is a part of every target approval process. And yes, sometimes we accept - in accordance with the Laws of Armed Conflict - civilian casualties as a known result of military operations, which can include drone strikes. Drone strikes, however, have the benefit of reducing civilian casualties to a minimum. The Combined Effects Radius of a Mitigated Hellfire is pretty tight.

And generally, yes. If you are a military age male who travels armed, travels with, and acts as a bodyguard for a known Jihadi leader, we tend to accept that you are likely supporting that organization as well.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

The Laws of Armed Conflict.



:shrug: the available literature suggests that the "bomb one terrorist, create more terrorists" mantra does not actually show up once you do the math. Nor do we utilize drones in a willy, nilly, or indiscriminate manner as you suggest. Quite the opposite, in fact. And the numbers also tell us that more children suffer from any other targeting method available. The options? They all result in greater civilian casualties.

Perhaps then, you're reading the wrong literature. But think of it logically and from a humanist perspective. A man comes home one day from working out in the fields to discover that his home is leveled and that his family is dead. If this was Star Wars, he'd be well on his way to the dark side.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

I oversaw the targeting efforts for a Corps-Level Command. Hint: that's a pretty broad overview.



We call them "collateral damage" and their estimation is a part of every target approval process. And yes, sometimes we accept - in accordance with the Laws of Armed Conflict - civilian casualties as a known result of military operations, which can include drone strikes. Drone strikes, however, have the benefit of reducing civilian casualties to a minimum. The Combined Effects Radius of a Mitigated Hellfire is pretty tight.

And generally, yes. If you are a military age male who travels armed, travels with, and acts as a bodyguard for a known Jihadi leader, we tend to accept that you are likely supporting that organization as well.

I was not referring to armed males. I was referring to those whom happen to be in the vicinity of those whom we were targeting. I believe that most of our major newspapers have covered stories like that: peeps being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being accepted as targets when they're not a la Gaza/Hamas predicament.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Perhaps then, you're reading the wrong literature.

Oh. You mean the kind that does actual analysis and stuff like that? Sorry, didn't realize I was supposed to be substituting hyperbole for reason.

Speaking of which....

But think of it logically and from a humanist perspective. A man comes home one day from working out in the fields to discover that his home is leveled and that his family is dead. If this was Star Wars, he'd be well on his way to the dark side.

:shrug: sure.

Now think about it from the perspective that it actually occurs in: A terrorist leader and his two body guards get blown up while driving from one training camp to another training camp. Locals shake their fists, and that is that.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

I was not referring to armed males. I was referring to those whom happen to be in the vicinity of those whom we were targeting.

You have to be in a pretty tight vicinity. I've seen a hellfire hit the back end of a car and the guy in the front seat gets out and takes off running.

I believe that most of our major newspapers have covered stories like that: peeps being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being accepted as targets when they're not a la Gaza/Hamas predicament.

Sure, it can absolutely happen. If you hang around with terrorist leaders, well, it means you're associated with terrorist leaders, and your risk goes up.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Oh. You mean the kind that does actual analysis and stuff like that? Sorry, didn't realize I was supposed to be substituting hyperbole for reason.

Speaking of which....



:shrug: sure.

Now think about it from the perspective that it actually occurs in: A terrorist leader and his two body guards get blown up while driving from one training camp to another training camp. Locals shake their fists, and that is that.

NYTimes, LATimes, Washington Post, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC etc are hyperbole nowadays?

It is not always "a terrorist leader and his bodyguards" that get zapped, and you know it, at least, you should by now.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

You have to be in a pretty tight vicinity. I've seen a hellfire hit the back end of a car and the guy in the front seat gets out and takes off running.



Sure, it can absolutely happen. If you hang around with terrorist leaders, well, it means you're associated with terrorist leaders, and your risk goes up.

Not necessarily. Was everyone who lived around the Mafia in large U.S. cities associated with the mob? No, of course not. It was just where they happened to live.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

The Laws of Armed Conflict.



:shrug: the available literature suggests that the "bomb one terrorist, create more terrorists" mantra does not actually show up once you do the math. Nor do we utilize drones in a willy, nilly, or indiscriminate manner as you suggest. Quite the opposite, in fact. And the numbers also tell us that more children suffer from any other targeting method available. The options? They all result in greater civilian casualties.

Its still cowardly. Killing while sitting in the a/c sipping a latte.

Send snipers. Skin in the game instead of just treasure. Much less collateral damage. Put fear in the hearts of the bad guys instead of kids.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

But giving them the opportunity to show their buddies that the US is bombing women and children isn't helping them spread their propaganda?

Not if they're dead.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

University of Nebraska Omaha Afghanistan Studies.

And?

...........
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

NYTimes, LATimes, Washington Post, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC etc are hyperbole nowadays?

No - your descriptions are. You are attempting to make an emotion-based case built on hyperbole. The media you are listing all carry things like this:

The New York Times said:
...most critics of the Obama administration’s aggressive use of drones for targeted killing have focused on evidence that they are unintentionally killing innocent civilians. From the desolate tribal regions of Pakistan have come heartbreaking tales of families wiped out by mistake and of children as collateral damage in the campaign against Al Qaeda. And there are serious questions about whether American officials have understated civilian deaths.

So it may be a surprise to find that some moral philosophers, political scientists and weapons specialists believe armed, unmanned aircraft offer marked moral advantages over almost any other tool of warfare.

“I had ethical doubts and concerns when I started looking into this,” said Bradley J. Strawser, a former Air Force officer and an assistant professor of philosophy at the Naval Postgraduate School. But after a concentrated study of remotely piloted vehicles, he said, he concluded that using them to go after terrorists not only was ethically permissible but also might be ethically obligatory, because of their advantages in identifying targets and striking with precision.

“You have to start by asking, as for any military action, is the cause just?” Mr. Strawser said. But for extremists who are indeed plotting violence against innocents, he said, “all the evidence we have so far suggests that drones do better at both identifying the terrorist and avoiding collateral damage than anything else we have.”

Since drone operators can view a target for hours or days in advance of a strike, they can identify terrorists more accurately than ground troops or conventional pilots. They are able to time a strike when innocents are not nearby and can even divert a missile after firing if, say, a child wanders into range....

Moreover, any analysis of actual results from the Central Intelligence Agency’s strikes in Pakistan, which has become the world’s unwilling test ground for the new weapon, is hampered by secrecy and wildly varying casualty reports. But one rough comparison has found that even if the highest estimates of collateral deaths are accurate, the drones kill fewer civilians than other modes of warfare.

AVERY PLAW, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, put the C.I.A. drone record in Pakistan up against the ratio of combatant deaths to civilian deaths in other settings. Mr. Plaw considered four studies of drone deaths in Pakistan that estimated the proportion of civilian victims at 4 percent, 6 percent, 17 percent and 20 percent respectively.

But even the high-end count of 20 percent was considerably lower than the rate in other settings, he found. When the Pakistani Army went after militants in the tribal area on the ground, civilians were 46 percent of those killed. In Israel’s targeted killings of militants from Hamas and other groups, using a range of weapons from bombs to missile strikes, the collateral death rate was 41 percent, according to an Israeli human rights group.....

So....

It is not always "a terrorist leader and his bodyguards" that get zapped, and you know it, at least, you should by now.

Oh. Do tell me about all the times you have sat inside a Joint Targeting Working Group and run the nominations for non-combatant targets to be engaged.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Its still cowardly. Killing while sitting in the a/c sipping a latte.

Send snipers.

:lamo Oh the irony :)
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Not necessarily. Was everyone who lived around the Mafia in large U.S. cities associated with the mob? No, of course not. It was just where they happened to live.

:shrug: everyone who "lives around" these guys aren't going to get killed. Again, the CER of a mitigated Hellfire isn't that expansive. If you are a military age male who travels armed and drives with them everywhere they go, however? Yup, you might get schwacked.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

:lamo Oh the irony :)

Gilley suits have a/c now? MREs have lattes? Sniper rifles are now accurate from complete safety?

Small teams are cool too.

We don't fight our enemies.

We murder them.

There is no honor in it.

I'm not saying our troops are dishonorable.

The way we wage "war" is.

I have no problem with assassination. I just have issues with doing it from the safety of home. It distances us from our actions. Turns people into videogame enemies.

And I don't think snipers kill 7 noncombatants for every bad guy they cap either.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Gilley suits have a/c now? MREs have lattes? Sniper rifles are now accurate from complete safety?

:) When we first started using snipers, people complained because they were "cowardly", because they involved someone hiding far away and taking a shot without the person being killed perhaps even knowing he was being engaged. People have traditionally used the same epithet against UW practitioners who refuse to Stand And Give Battle in a conventional format. :lol: It's like saying we should replace Obama with someone who was popular throughout their Presidency - you know, like W. ;)

Small teams are cool too.

Sure, and also considered cowardly by their opponents.

We don't fight our enemies.

Sure we do.

We murder them.

Yup. And here's hoping that every time we fight our enemy, it's really a murder - with complete and total surprise on our part and complete inability to fight back effectively on theirs.

There is no honor in it.

:) you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm not saying our troops are dishonorable.

Sure you are. You just did.

The way we wage "war" is.

And that war is waged by........ ?

I have no problem with assassination. I just have issues with doing it from the safety of home. It distances us from our actions. Turns people into videogame enemies.

The political impossibility of what you are describing aside (if you think for a second that we would be able to get Pakistan's approval for that, or keep those teams black once they started killing you are nuts), I'm not really willing to sacrifice any more of my friends, to watch their widows watch their lives shatter and break, or spend any more time trying to provide a bit of positive male-role-model to any more kids without dads for your sense of aesthetics.

And I don't think snipers kill 7 noncombatants for every bad guy they cap either.

:shrug: neither do drones, so....
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

I guess this is the only acceptable way to wage war.

red-coats.jpg
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

And?

...........

Soviet-Afghan War. Textbooks. Ringing any bells?
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

:shrug: everyone who "lives around" these guys aren't going to get killed. Again, the CER of a mitigated Hellfire isn't that expansive. If you are a military age male who travels armed and drives with them everywhere they go, however? Yup, you might get schwacked.

Which is fine. They are belligerents then. I have no issue with that whatsoever. But, as I have already stated, civilians being blown to smithereens is troublesome.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

No - your descriptions are. You are attempting to make an emotion-based case built on hyperbole. The media you are listing all carry things like this:



So....



Oh. Do tell me about all the times you have sat inside a Joint Targeting Working Group and run the nominations for non-combatant targets to be engaged.

Again, your experiences are not universal. That is, unless you're claiming you've personally watched every drone strike?

And I don't get why you're saying I'm making "an emotion-based case built on hyperbole." Please, explain.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

The correct number is 42% of those identified were "militants". There is no way of knowing the status of those not identified.
I wonder how may civilians were killed in Iraq by our "shock and awe" attacks before the invasion? The best estimates for the Iraq war are over 100,000 civilians including women and children killed. Drones are far more humane than invasion.

Whose anti-American lie is that you're spreading? Michael Moore's? Cindy Sheehan's? Oliver Stone's? Or some other America-hating commie?

Very few civilians were hit in the bombings leading up to the 2003 invasion, because the weapons used were extremely accurate and only aimed at valid military targets. Most of these were not close to populated areas. If the U.S. had been trying to kill civilians in Iraq, it could have killed 100,000 in a single night without much trouble, just using conventional bombs.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Soviet-Afghan War. Textbooks. Ringing any bells?

Is there a point anywhere in our future?
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

They are brown and from the wrong region in the world... What other reason do we need?

Are you ****ing serious with that? And who is we?
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Which is fine. They are belligerents then. I have no issue with that whatsoever. But, as I have already stated, civilians being blown to smithereens is troublesome.

:shrug: sure. It is A) simply not happening at anything close to the portions suggested by the OP, and B) happens less with drones than with other more conventional military options.
 
Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

Are you ****ing serious with that? And who is we?

He is suggesting that that is how we view the problem. You know, because the President is a racist :roll:
 
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