Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war

Krynica (Poland) (AFP) - European military assistance to Ukraine could lead to a nuclear conflict between Russia and NATO, according to Poland's iconic cold warrior and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lech Walesa.

"It could lead to a nuclear war," the anti-Communist legend told reporters when asked whether the EU should send weapons to Ukraine to help it fights off separatist rebels and Russian aggression.

"The EU is well aware that Russia has nuclear weapons. NATO has them too. Must we then destroy each other?" said the former Solidarity trade union leader famous for negotiating a bloodless end to communism in Poland in 1989.

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Russia and NATO square off over Ukraine

Moscow (AFP) - Russia declared NATO a major "threat" on Tuesday after the Western military alliance announced plans to reinforce defences in eastern Europe because of the Kremlin's perceived stoking of war in Ukraine.

Moscow's surprise declaration of a shift in its military doctrine came just ahead of a NATO summit in Wales on Thursday at which beleaguered Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko will lobby US President Barack Obama for military support.

Obama will deliver a message of firm NATO support for its newest members from the former Soviet empire when he visits the tiny Baltic state of Estonia on Wednesday.

The Russian national security council's deputy secretary Mikhail Popov said NATO's plan for new fast-response units in eastern Europe was "evidence of the desire of US and NATO leaders to continue their policy of aggravating tensions with Russia".

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Is this a situation that the US should use it's power and influence to encourage NATO to back off from, or help them?

We should help. Only if we are ready for total war. Because Putin is ready for it.

CRUE CAB said:

We should help. Only if we are ready for total war. Because Putin is ready for it.

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If we let Putin continue, he may feel there's no reason to stop going after Baltic states. But if we back NATO and arm the Ukraine, he might ramp it up dramatically with heavy strikes.

Dicey situation. :shock:

If Russia will use nuclear weapons, they will eventually do so, regardless of what we do.

At some point, the west is going to have to confront Putin. So... if he's gonna push the proverbial button, he will regardless.

I seriously doubt that he will, as long as no one invades Russia proper. To do so would be suicide, and he knows it.

Beaudreaux said:

If Russia will use nuclear weapons, they will eventually do so, regardless of what we do.

At some point, the west is going to have to confront Putin. So... if he's gonna push the proverbial button, he will regardless.

I seriously doubt that he will, as long as no one invades Russia proper. To so so would be suicide, and he knows it.

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I think whether he uses them or not has a lot to do with our responses. But we will have to make a decision on how far we're willing to put up resistance.

I doubt he wants all out nuke war either. It wouldn't happen suddenly, it would be in reaction to a series of blundering military actions by aggressive field commanders.

grip said:

I think whether he uses them or not has a lot to do with our responses. But we will have to make a decision on how far we're willing to put up resistance.

I doubt he wants all out nuke war either. It wouldn't happen suddenly, it would be in reaction to a series of blundering military actions by aggressive field commanders.

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One concern I have is that nuclear use is not in Putin's hands like it is in the US. Russia gives the commanding general the final codes, and relies on chain of command loyalty to prevent a launch. Or at least that's the way it used to be. Not so sure if it's still that way.

My primary concern is what would happen if we arm the Ukrainians and they cross into Russia - then we'd have a real problem and Putin would be justified in attacking us.

grip said:

If we let Putin continue, he may feel there's no reason to stop going after Baltic states. But if we back NATO and arm the Ukraine, he might ramp it up dramatically with heavy strikes.

Dicey situation. :shock:

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My bet is he is going to do that anyway. He wants to go back to cold war borders.

Beaudreaux said:

One concern I have is that nuclear use is not in Putin's hands like it is in the US. Russia gives the commanding general the final codes, and relies on chain of command loyalty to prevent a launch. Or at least that's the way it used to be. Not so sure if it's still that way.

My primary concern is what would happen if we arm the Ukrainians and they cross into Russia - then we'd have a real problem and Putin would be justified in attacking us.

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NATO acts like they can't afford to back down and Russia isn't known too. So something has to give or the situation just keeps ramping up, with the Ukraine getting armed or backed up militarily.

CRUE CAB said:

My bet is he is going to do that anyway. He wants to go back to cold war borders.

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I think he'll eventually stop once he gets as much as he thinks is possible, short of War with Europe/US.

grip said:

NATO acts like they can't afford to back down and Russia isn't known too. So something has to give or the situation just keeps ramping up, with the Ukraine getting armed or backed up militarily.

I think he'll eventually stop once he gets as much as he thinks is possible, short of War with Europe/US.

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He "might" be worried about us, but Europe? Nope, not even alittle.

Send weapons to the Ukrainians.

If Putin's going to use nukes over this, then he's more ****ing loony then anyone previously thought.

Beaudreaux said:

If Russia will use nuclear weapons, they will eventually do so, regardless of what we do.

At some point, the west is going to have to confront Putin. So... if he's gonna push the proverbial button, he will regardless.

I seriously doubt that he will, as long as no one invades Russia proper. To do so would be suicide, and he knows it.

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Let's get real. If Russia wanted Ukraine, they would just take it. Something more must be going on here. Perhaps the USA's subversive efforts to dissemble Ukraine's economics from Russia might be a factor? Perhaps stiffing Russia for $4.8 billion in past due gas bills could be a factor? Perhaps privatizing a pipeline to Europe carrying a substantial portion of Russian gas might be a factor? Talking about Ukraine buying reverse flow gas from a pipeline majority-filled from the Russian end might be a factor? Perhaps USA wanting to control the throttle on energy to the EU as a geo-political ploy might be a factor? Pethaps the USA wants all these Euro area Nations in the same Central Banking loop instead of like Iceland, and that might account of why billionaire oligarchs have been the annoited leaders (hint, if you have a billion dollars you are a banker, like it or not). Perhaps attempting to outlaw the Russian language spoken in South and East Ukraine and referring to these residents as cockroaches (colorados) that need to be exterminated could be a factor? Perhaps allowing Nazis in the Ukrainian gov't did not sit well in South and East Ukraine where German Nazis killed 20 million+ Russians during WWII was a factor? Could this war be between Ukrainians and Ukrainians and not Ukrainians and Russians, because if it is Ukrainians against Ukraininans then negotiations should be between Kiev and the Separatists and could that be a factor? Could the "Black Hole of MH17" indict Kiev and could that be a factor? Russia has not invaded, but perhaps many South And East Ukraine Grandma's grandchildren working in Russia where there are jobs have dropped in for a visit to help Grandma and brought weapons to be useful , because Grandma is being bombarded by artillery, and could that be a factor? This is just another manifestation of the power of the Big Energy lobby in USA politics.. Control the Nation's energy and banking and control the Nation. Could that be a factor?

grip said:

Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war




Russia and NATO square off over Ukraine





Is this a situation that the US should use it's power and influence to encourage NATO to back off from, or help them?

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Back off.

Putin is not going to use nuclear weapons over Ukraine.

CRUE CAB said:

He "might" be worried about us, but Europe? Nope, not even alittle.

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NATO has nukes, enough to obliterate Europe and Russia.

grip said:

If we let Putin continue, he may feel there's no reason to stop going after Baltic states. But if we back NATO and arm the Ukraine, he might ramp it up dramatically with heavy strikes.

Dicey situation. :shock:

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With the Baltics, I know Lithuania is a NATO member, so we have no choice there.

Ukraine is not. They're not in NATO, and they're not a stable democracy. Arming the current government just says "We don't care about elections or the democratic process as long as you're vaguely on our side." Bad move, IMO.

At this point, Putin is softening. The rebels are reportedly willing to take being an autonomous region within Ukraine as part of a deal.

Ukraine rebels demand autonomy amid talks - timesofmalta.com

If Putin is in fact calling the shots there, this could be a way out.

Beaudreaux said:

One concern I have is that nuclear use is not in Putin's hands like it is in the US. Russia gives the commanding general the final codes, and relies on chain of command loyalty to prevent a launch. Or at least that's the way it used to be. Not so sure if it's still that way.

My primary concern is what would happen if we arm the Ukrainians and they cross into Russia - then we'd have a real problem and Putin would be justified in attacking us.

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We don't need another proxy war. What we need to do is beef up the military posture of all NATO nations and make sure that lines of communication remain open and obvious. We need to do the same thing with Israel. There should be no question whatsoever where our interests lie.

We should also start working out, very publicly, how we can handle the gas and oil needs of Europe without Russian supplies. Make it clear to Putin that a win in the Ukraine is going to result in a loss of western markets. If he wants the old Soviet Union he can have it on pretty much the same terms as he had 30 years ago.

It appears Putin may have inspired a renewed interest in NATO. Especially for those small countries along Russia's borders.

Lutherf said:

We don't need another proxy war. What we need to do is beef up the military posture of all NATO nations and make sure that lines of communication remain open and obvious. We need to do the same thing with Israel. There should be no question whatsoever where our interests lie.

We should also start working out, very publicly, how we can handle the gas and oil needs of Europe without Russian supplies. Make it clear to Putin that a win in the Ukraine is going to result in a loss of western markets. If he wants the old Soviet Union he can have it on pretty much the same terms as he had 30 years ago.

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Well said. And agreed.

NATO exists for a reason. I prefer NATO over the UN, and Putin needs to know we stand with our allies. The Balkans and other new, small, NATO countries are very worried because they don't know where we stand. We should stop the anti-Israel stance the current administration began as soon as they took power, and stand by ALL our allies.

At least we are beefing up our NATO presence, but that isn't enough. Obama going to Estonia before the NATO summit is a good thing as well - as long as he doesn't tell them they're on there own, which I doubt he would do.

Moot said:

It appears Putin may have inspired a renewed interest in NATO. Especially for those small countries along Russia's borders.

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Very true. Those that were hesitant to look at a NATO membership are probably rethinking their position in the light of the aggressive Russian actions.

Beaudreaux said:

Well said. And agreed.

NATO exists for a reason. I prefer NATO over the UN, and Putin needs to know we stand with our allies. The Balkans and other new, small, NATO countries are very worried because they don't know where we stand. We should stop the anti-Israel stance the current administration began as soon as they took power, and stand by ALL our allies.

At least we are beefing up our NATO presence, but that isn't enough. Obama going to Estonia before the NATO summit is a good thing as well - as long as he doesn't tell them they're on there own, which I doubt he would do.

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Exactly.

The crux of the biscuit is that we can't make everyone happy. That just isn't going to happen. To that end we need to stand solidly along side those with whom we have a common interest.

Lutherf said:

Exactly.

The crux of the biscuit is that we can't make everyone happy. That just isn't going to happen. To that end we need to stand solidly along side those with whom we have a common interest.

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That's foreign policy 101. A course some in the current administration either missed or failed.

Beaudreaux said:

Very true. Those that were hesitant to look at a NATO membership are probably rethinking their position in the light of the aggressive Russian actions.

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I thnk it will have a negative impact upon NATO membership. The USA actions have been the detriment and keep in mind that all of Europe knows of US State Dept's Nuland's "f*ck the EU" remark. The sanctions have cost the EU GDP several percentage points already, more to come. For What? So the USA can squeeze off the gas to the EU the next time they want to pressure them. A nice new cold war will be very profitable for the USA Military Industrial Complex, like the phony "War of Terror."

Moot said:

It appears Putin may have inspired a renewed interest in NATO. Especially for those small countries along Russia's borders.

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I would say that the interest has always been in NATO. It just that it has some pretty steep membership pre-requirements.

Lutherf said:

Exactly.

The crux of the biscuit is that we can't make everyone happy. That just isn't going to happen. To that end we need to stand solidly along side those with whom we have a common interest.

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That is a reciprocal attitude.

Beaudreaux said:

Very true. Those that were hesitant to look at a NATO membership are probably rethinking their position in the light of the aggressive Russian actions.

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Whom do you allude to? I heard Suomiland became a member of NATO? I think they were here somewhere too?