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Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In The

Paxaeon

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"On Wednesday, 22-year-old John Crawford was shot dead inside a Wal-Mart by police in Beavercreek, Ohio, after a shopper called 911 to report someone inside with a gun. Now, Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine says the gun Crawford was carrying was a BB gun known as a variable pump air rifle — a target-shooting and small game-hunting gun made to look like a real, more deadly weapon.

The MK-177 Crosman BB/Pellet Rifle gun is stocked in the shelves at Wal-Mart, and relatives of Crawford’s say he wasn’t carrying any gun when he entered Wal-Mart. He reportedly picked up the gun in the toy section of the store. The store says it has since been told to remove the gun from its shelves.

Some witnesses say Crawford was pointing the gun at customers and children, and did not comply with police commands. But Crawford’s family has asked state civil rights groups including the NAACP to look into the shooting. Crawford was black." - Source - Screen shot
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This is a tragic event but I do not blame the police in this.

First off, the race of the suspect is completely irrelevant. If the news story is correct, he was pointing a toy gun, made to look realistic, at people in the store. The police acted prudently.

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Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I'd agree. Picking up a fake gun is one thing, but not making it known that it's a fake gun when confronted by authorities and pointing it at fellow customers is another altogether. It's easy to judge the officers actions in hindsight, but it appears he made the right choice based on what he thought were the facts of the matter at the time.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Some witnesses say Crawford was pointing the gun at customers and children, and did not comply with police commands.

If that quote is true, then the police are not at fault.

That's a big "if"...but highly significant no matter how you slice it.


0002847814136_500X500.jpg
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I'd agree. Picking up a fake gun is one thing, but not making it known that it's a fake gun when confronted by authorities and pointing it at fellow customers is another altogether. It's easy to judge the officers actions in hindsight, but it appears he made the right choice based on what he thought were the facts of the matter at the time.

I agree. I just wish cops would learn to shoot to stop, not to kill, by whatever means possible. Train to shoot at the arm, minimizing the threat while avoiding any loss of life.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I agree. I just wish cops would learn to shoot to stop, not to kill, by whatever means possible. Train to shoot at the arm, minimizing the threat while avoiding any loss of life.
Only qualm I have with that is that the arm is a far narrower target and in a situation where danger is presumed to to be imminent or the suspect is waiving his arm about in a threatening manner, the margin for error is far greater than when shooting at center mass.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I agree. I just wish cops would learn to shoot to stop, not to kill, by whatever means possible. Train to shoot at the arm, minimizing the threat while avoiding any loss of life.

Sorry, under stressful situations, it is impossible to do that. That's what tasers are for but, when they are confronted with a gun, they use a gun.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Recently a woman was awarded 23.6 Billion dollars because her stupid husband smoked himself to death at 36 years of age. Why can't we sue the manufacturers of toys that look exactly like real guns from up close to far away. Why is it critical to a 6 year old the toy has to look like the real deal and people get killed flashing them to police?
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Only qualm I have with that is that the arm is a far narrower target and in a situation where danger is presumed to to be imminent or the suspect is waiving his arm about in a threatening manner, the margin for error is far greater than when shooting at center mass.

Sorry, under stressful situations, it is impossible to do that. That's what tasers are for but, when they are confronted with a gun, they use a gun.

Trained professionals should be capable of taking out a suspect without killing him/her. We are not talking about the average trigger happy Joe.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Trained professionals should be capable of taking out a suspect without killing him/her. We are not talking about the average trigger happy Joe.
Ideally, yes. But as I said before, nullifying the immediate threat to the surrounding persons as quickly as possible should take precedence over preserving the life of the gunman in those situations. You don't shoot with the presumption of innocence.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I do have an issue with the authentic look of these guns, [including the air-soft ones] They should all have the orange indicator tip. Looking down the barrel of a .22 caliber pellet rifle is not any different than doing the same with an AR-15 .223.

FWIW, it is possible to kill or severely maim someone with a lead pellet depending on the spot of impact and power for the weapon.

If this guy was pointing it at customers, he was looking for suicide by cop.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Trained professionals should be capable of taking out a suspect without killing him/her.
Trained professionals should be allowed to defend themselves first, others second, perpetrator last. Assuming the police thought it was a real gun, and assuming the "victim" was pointing it at people and not complying with police commands, and assuming the police were incapable of determining the gun the "victim" was holding was not relatively harmless, then the police officer absolutely did the right thing.

Officers should only fire their weapon when there is absolutely ZERO other options and people's lives are in danger. And if the situation reaches such a critical mass, then they should shoot to the finish. The last thing you want to do is try and shoot an arm and miss and wound an innocent bystander/hostage. Or shoot a non-fatal wound and allow the perpetrator to start shooting back. If there is no other option but to shoot, you shoot to the finish.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Recently a woman was awarded 23.6 Billion dollars because her stupid husband smoked himself to death at 36 years of age. Why can't we sue the manufacturers of toys that look exactly like real guns from up close to far away. Why is it critical to a 6 year old the toy has to look like the real deal and people get killed flashing them to police?

There are multiple simple answers here.

#1) don't ever point anything that looks like a gun directly at other people

#2) When police ask you to put something down, PUT IT DOWN.

#3) When police draw guns and point them at you, you better do EXACTLY what they command you to do.

#4) Don't do stupid stuff with anything that resembles a deadly weapon

#5) Crosman is not responsible for this morons behavior inside a store.


The last time I bought a Crosman bb gun it came in a box.
I did not take the gun out of the box until I got home.
I certainly would never think to remove gun from box inside a store and start pointing it at people.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Ideally, yes. But as I said before, nullifying the immediate threat to the surrounding persons as quickly as possible should take precedence over preserving the life of the gunman in those situations. You don't shoot with the presumption of innocence.

I guess we can agree on that. Sometimes circumstances warrant a kill shot. But lets also look at this from a different angle.
Beavercreek city stats confirm population < 50 thou, fairly rural, but the same could be said for any law enforcement agency, and that is one of complacency and not proficiency.
While I respect and appreciate those who serve and protect, and I realize that not too many cops will ever have to face a life and death situation, I also expect more. We can't expect the perfect outcome every time, but we should be able to reduce the loss of life with better training.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I guess we can agree on that. Sometimes circumstances warrant a kill shot. But lets also look at this from a different angle.
Beavercreek city stats confirm population < 50 thou, fairly rural, but the same could be said for any law enforcement agency, and that is one of complacency and not proficiency.
While I respect and appreciate those who serve and protect, and I realize that not too many cops will ever have to face a life and death situation, I also expect more. We can't expect the perfect outcome every time, but we should be able to reduce the loss of life with better training.

Trying to "wound" somebody with what looks like at the very least a semi-automatic "assault style" weapon with a magazine does not make sense.

A wounded man with a full magazine would be highly dangerous to everyone around.

If the dude was swinging a knife or a hammer or something you may have a point....

But in this case...I just can't fault the police based on what little information we have to go on.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Trained professionals should be capable of taking out a suspect without killing him/her. We are not talking about the average trigger happy Joe.
have you ever shot a gun before?
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Trained professionals should be capable of taking out a suspect without killing him/her. We are not talking about the average trigger happy Joe.

Sorry, but that is fantasy land. The stop area on an arm is less than two inches, and even then there is no guarantee that the suspect will be stopped. There are very few people, including police, capable of hitting that size target under stress.

The police in this case may have acted in haste, but once the decision is made to shoot, you shoot for center body mass.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

I agree. I just wish cops would learn to shoot to stop, not to kill, by whatever means possible. Train to shoot at the arm, minimizing the threat while avoiding any loss of life.

This "loss of life" is caused by people the police do not know and they are pointing weapons at them. You see a weapon pointed at you your reaction (training) is to hit the greatest mass area i.e., the chest area. THAT is how you defend yourself from being killed. A gun is the last resort but you use it to protect yourself from being killed by killing the other guy. One guy goes home to his family and one fool is dead and that is the way it should be.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

If that quote is true, then the police are not at fault.

That's a big "if"...but highly significant no matter how you slice it.


0002847814136_500X500.jpg

Cool BB gun.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

have you ever shot a gun before?

Sorry, but that is fantasy land. The stop area on an arm is less than two inches, and even then there is no guarantee that the suspect will be stopped. There are very few people, including police, capable of hitting that size target under stress.

The police in this case may have acted in haste, but once the decision is made to shoot, you shoot for center body mass.

This "loss of life" is caused by people the police do not know and they are pointing weapons at them. You see a weapon pointed at you your reaction (training) is to hit the greatest mass area i.e., the chest area. THAT is how you defend yourself from being killed. A gun is the last resort but you use it to protect yourself from being killed by killing the other guy. One guy goes home to his family and one fool is dead and that is the way it should be.

Not too much to ask to expect the best from law enforcement. Most professionals train at regular intervals, and police must do so as well, must try for the best outcome when confronted with a deadly firearm. I am sure they are capable, they try their best, but I am also sure that many are complacent simply because situations like this aren't commonplace. Police officer, pilot, doctor, truck driver, all should strive to be the best at what they do.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Not too much to ask to expect the best from law enforcement.
It kind of is because not all law enforcement are as effective or trained nearly as well as Navy seals.
Most professionals train at regular intervals, and police must do so as well,
As do i, as part of my job. At a distance of 9 feet away, the difference between shooting the arm or the chest/head is a distance of a couple of millimeters in alignment on the pistol. That means that chances are, if you're the "new guy" out of basic training, and you're breathing heavy, you're simply not going to hit where you intend to shoot. These are not robots, lovebug, these are humans, for all we know the cop aimed for the leg but the cocking action of the pistol caused him to fire slightly upwards. This is why, no matter how trained you are, we practice weapon safety.
must try for the best outcome when confronted with a deadly firearm. I am sure they are capable, they try their best, but I am also sure that many are complacent simply because situations like this aren't commonplace. Police officer, pilot, doctor, truck driver, all should strive to be the best at what they do.
The best we can do, is simply keep our fellow officers from getting hurt. As far as civilians, especially when they act stupid like this, have it coming.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

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"On Wednesday, 22-year-old John Crawford was shot dead inside a Wal-Mart by police in Beavercreek, Ohio, after a shopper called 911 to report someone inside with a gun. Now, Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine says the gun Crawford was carrying was a BB gun known as a variable pump air rifle — a target-shooting and small game-hunting gun made to look like a real, more deadly weapon.

The MK-177 Crosman BB/Pellet Rifle gun is stocked in the shelves at Wal-Mart, and relatives of Crawford’s say he wasn’t carrying any gun when he entered Wal-Mart. He reportedly picked up the gun in the toy section of the store. The store says it has since been told to remove the gun from its shelves.

Some witnesses say Crawford was pointing the gun at customers and children, and did not comply with police commands. But Crawford’s family has asked state civil rights groups including the NAACP to look into the shooting. Crawford was black." - Source - Screen shot
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This is a tragic event but I do not blame the police in this.

First off, the race of the suspect is completely irrelevant. If the news story is correct, he was pointing a toy gun, made to look realistic, at people in the store. The police acted prudently.

`

I'm confused. Condemning the "scary gun" and conveniently totally ignoring the wanton endangerment his total inappropriate behavior caused - the point is? You mention race but not anything about inappropriate behavior. :roll:
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

There are multiple simple answers here.

#1) don't ever point anything that looks like a gun directly at other people

#2) When police ask you to put something down, PUT IT DOWN.

#3) When police draw guns and point them at you, you better do EXACTLY what they command you to do.

#4) Don't do stupid stuff with anything that resembles a deadly weapon

#5) Crosman is not responsible for this morons behavior inside a store.


The last time I bought a Crosman bb gun it came in a box.
I did not take the gun out of the box until I got home.

I certainly would never think to remove gun from box inside a store and start pointing it at people.

The bold was exactly what I was wondering. What was his intent.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Not too much to ask to expect the best from law enforcement. Most professionals train at regular intervals, and police must do so as well, must try for the best outcome when confronted with a deadly firearm. I am sure they are capable, they try their best, but I am also sure that many are complacent simply because situations like this aren't commonplace. Police officer, pilot, doctor, truck driver, all should strive to be the best at what they do.

You probably need to answer the first question first. Have you ever shot a gun? Your posts and assertations would indicate a lack of knowledge of even the basics of firearms handling, safety, and limitations. Only John Wayne can fire a Winchester form horseback and hit a moving target, and even John did not fire at the bad guy's trigger finger.

There are some unanswered questions in this particular situation, but the placement of the shot is not one of them.
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

So the brave officer shot an innocent man dead because he was holding a gun in a gun store. Yeah, that sounds totally justified.

/sarcasm
 
Re: Man Allegedly Shot Dead By Police In Wal-Mart For Carrying BB Gun He Picked Up In

Some witnesses say Crawford was pointing the gun at customers and children, and did not comply with police commands.
That's all I need to know. Good shoot, another dumbass removed from the gene pool.
 
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