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Christian Leader: ISIS is Beheading Children[W:131]

Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Dittohead not! said:
I'm wondering where you got your information about the population of Iraq increasing so dramatically, and attributing that to lower infant mortality.
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Every year I get the NYTimes World Almanac with data, usually from UN sources, on such stuff. Generally, the death rate per 1000 ranged from 8.0 to 14.5 from 1980 to 2002 and dropped to 5.2, 5.1, 4.9 from the start of the war. A drop of 3 points in a country of 25 million would mean 75,000 lives saved a year. Infant mortality rates climbed from 18 to 64 per 1000 during the Saddam years and is currently c. 47. Population in 2002 was 22 million. I did not attribute the drop in death rate to infant mortality-it was just one piece of a complex puzzle. Saddam was killing his own people, engaging in wars, and mismanaging health care (made worse by UN sanctions due to the suspected WMD stuff). Someone needs to understand the increase in population unequalled by almost all countries despite being at war from 2003 to 2008.

It is important to look at data from the same sources consistently.

And most of the 100,000 plus Iraqis who died were killed by other Iraqis is a civil war that the allied forces were trying to limit.
http://icasualties.org/Iraq/index.aspx

If only the media had reported this stuff honestly Obama probably would not have made such errors in judgment. Instead we are left with a situation equivalent to the breakup of Yugoslavia and we should have expected this.
 
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Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Dittohead not! said:
We're not ignoring it. Blame who you want, there is plenty to go around. The bottom line is that invading and taking out Saddam Hussain was a bad idea from the get go.
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Actually it worked very well. The genocide stopped, the rape rooms, the attacks against neighbors, and so on. Everyone, including Obama and Biden, said that Iraq was a success. What led to the chaos we see now was Obama pulling all the troops out of Iraq while the country was stable, despite being advised would could, and did, happen.

If you want to blame the Democrats, be my guest. The were as much a part of it as the Republicans were anyway.
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It would seem, in this case, that the Democrats are responsible. However, if Obama can remove this threat and stop the carnage, he will deserve all the credit.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

I am always fascinated by the absurd reasoning by some of the hardcore right wingers when it comes to foreign policy. The Bush Administration's decision to go into Iraq was quite possibly the biggest foreign policy mistake in the history of the United States. Yet the mess today is all the fault of the rather inept president we have in office now? The fact is, none of this would have happened, including the mess in Syria, the rise of Iran, or the civil war and radicalization of Iraq had we continued with the policy of containment of Iraq put in place by Bush Sr, and carried on through the Clinton Administration. We would all be better off if the dictator Saddam was still running Iraq. There would be no ISIS, no Al Qaeda Iraq, no developing a nuke in Iran, no civil war in Syria….

I swear, some of you right wingers would throw a stick of dynamite into an outhouse and then bitch about their being sh*t everywhere afterwards.
 
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Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Moderator's Warning:
There are several posts that are bordering on being infracted. Its time to watch your P's and Q's ladies and gents. Just to note, I will be going through the thread and infracting those that need it despite this in-thread.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

SouthernDemocrat said:
I am always fascinated by the absurd reasoning by some of the hardcore right wingers when it comes to foreign policy. The Bush Administration's decision to go into Iraq was quite possibly the biggest foreign policy mistake in the history of the United States. Yet the mess today is all the fault of the rather inept president we have in office now? The fact is, none of this would have happened, including the mess in Syria, the rise of Iran, or the civil war and radicalization of Iraq had we continued with the policy of containment of Iraq put in place by Bush Sr, and carried on through the Clinton Administration. We would all be better off if the dictator Saddam was still running Iraq. There would be no ISIS, no Al Qaeda Iraq, no developing a nuke in Iran, no civil war in Syria….

I swear, some of you right wingers would throw a stick of dynamite into an outhouse and then bitch about their being sh*t everywhere afterwards.
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I certainly agree that the Iraq adventure was a serious mistake. I agree that we and Iraq would be better of with Saddam still in power. But you do need to understand how Obama's policy has affected things. The prudent thing for him to do (despite the actions of his predecessors) would have been to reduce our military presence in Iraq, not eliminate it. I agree that ISIS wouldn't be a problem if Saddam were in power. I also think it would not be a problem if we had not left. If a president doesn't like what his predecessors did he still needs to do what is best for the country, like it or not. There is plenty of incompetence to go around, I'm afraid.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

fmw said:
I certainly agree that the Iraq adventure was a serious mistake. I agree that we and Iraq would be better of with Saddam still in power. But you do need to understand how Obama's policy has affected things. The prudent thing for him to do (despite the actions of his predecessors) would have been to reduce our military presence in Iraq, not eliminate it. I agree that ISIS wouldn't be a problem if Saddam were in power. I also think it would not be a problem if we had not left. If a president doesn't like what his predecessors did he still needs to do what is best for the country, like it or not. There is plenty of incompetence to go around, I'm afraid.
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They didn't want us there. I agree that a president has to deal with what his predecessors left for him, and I think that Obama has been a mediocre president at best in terms of foreign policy at a time when we needed a lot better, but the fact is, unless we want to keep 50,000 troops over there indefinitely, at the cost of 50 billion a year or so, then the country was going to fall apart. The best thing we could do at this point would be to figure out how we could prop up some kind of strong man brutal dictator again in Iraq. How old are Saddam's grandsons now? ;)
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

TurtleDude said:
no war needed. just a couple minor league ICBMs in the right place

problem solved
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Of course, those would also kill the non-ISIS people that we ostensibly would like to protect.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

SouthernDemocrat said:
The fact is, none of this would have happened, including the mess in Syria, the rise of Iran, or the civil war and radicalization of Iraq had we continued with the policy of containment of Iraq put in place by Bush Sr, and carried on through the Clinton Administration. We would all be better off if the dictator Saddam was still running Iraq. There would be no ISIS, no Al Qaeda Iraq, no developing a nuke in Iran, no civil war in Syria….
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What? No.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Fenton said:
Lol !

6 years in and " Bush owns it " ?? Wow...

Isis wasn't marching around Iraq killing Christians and threatening Genocide when Bush was in office.
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Such an interesting "objection" coming from a guy that routinely blames Clinton (and Carter) for the 2008 economic melt down. ... but, unlike the argument you make there that the CRA was responsible for the meltdown (dubious, at best).... in the case of Bush, there is a specific action that he advocated, lobbied for and executed that drastically changed the political environment in Iraq and planted not only the seeds of ISIS, but fertilized the garden as well.

Prior to 2003, Iraq was a secure country. There was no sectarian violence. We had a ruthless dictator that kept the "peace". That was despite the fact that Iraq was not even a real country, but a collection of disparate ethnic groups (that fundamentally hated each other), thrown together under some League of Nations edict (from 1920). Of course, our man George and his band of ignorant (or maybe well intentioned, but naive) Neocons had this idea that Iraq just wanted to be free.... so they invaded. Of course, the bull in the china shop had no plan for the after toppling, they just thought everyone would dance in the streets. Instead, they ignorantly began the "de-baathification" of Iraq, which cleansed the Iraq government and military of Sunnis, replacing them with Shia. In essence, we played on group over another. This set the seed for sectarian violence, which ensued in Iraq from much to the next 11 years...... and created fertile soil for what is now Isis.

Had we not invaded Iraq, we would not have an Isis problem (and our debt would be about 4-6T less). George Bush broke it; he owns it.

Curiously, on this same day. the Jim Brady death was ruled a murder. It seems that some event of 33 years ago has been blamed for his death of last week. While I personally find that a bit far fetched, it does well illustrate the notion that one person can (and often is) held accountable for the long-term consequences of a single decision or action. Bush screwed up Iraq... he gets the blame until its fixed. Now, I don't completely exonerate Obama here, he gets some blame for misplaying a card from the bad hand he was dealt, but save for George Bush, we are not talking about ISIS today.
 
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Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Dittohead not! said:
Oh, I see. The Bush Administration was gonna negotiate for them to stay. When Obama took credit for pulling them out, he was taking credit for something the Bush Administration already did, but now that things have gone (predictably) bad there, he wuzgonna change his mind.

We used to say that two wuzgonnas and a dime would get you a cup of coffee, but that's out of date. Now, two wuzgonnas and five bucks will get you a latte grande mocha goodie with fru frus on top. Times change.

The major mistake in Iraq was going there to begin with. After that, I'm not sure that there was any avoiding the mess that it has become.
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It's like having one coach sign their star player to a 5 year contract and in year 5 a the new coach lets the star player leave the team without making an offer... and then blaming the previous coach for only signing a 5 year deal.

SOFAs always have an expiration because politically it's supposed to look like a temporary thing, and gives both sides a set time for negotiations. Obama never bothered even though his military advisers wanted 20,000+ soldiers in Iraq.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Well whoever is at fault ISIS is doing in a hurry what Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Queda, etc. were doing more slowly.

The left claims to protect endangered species but the most endangered species in the world today are the Christians of the Middle East.
Karim couldn't help expressing bitterness about this. "I don't see any attention from the rest of the world," he said. "In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, 'Save Gaza, save Gaza.' "
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ISIS, the Yazidis, Kurdistan, and the Threat of Massacres in Iraq
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

Eric7216 said:
Every year I get the NYTimes World Almanac with data, usually from UN sources, on such stuff. Generally, the death rate per 1000 ranged from 8.0 to 14.5 from 1980 to 2002 and dropped to 5.2, 5.1, 4.9 from the start of the war. A drop of 3 points in a country of 25 million would mean 75,000 lives saved a year. Infant mortality rates climbed from 18 to 64 per 1000 during the Saddam years and is currently c. 47. Population in 2002 was 22 million. I did not attribute the drop in death rate to infant mortality-it was just one piece of a complex puzzle. Saddam was killing his own people, engaging in wars, and mismanaging health care (made worse by UN sanctions due to the suspected WMD stuff). Someone needs to understand the increase in population unequalled by almost all countries despite being at war from 2003 to 2008.

It is important to look at data from the same sources consistently.

And most of the 100,000 plus Iraqis who died were killed by other Iraqis is a civil war that the allied forces were trying to limit.
iCasualties | Operation Iraqi Freedom | Iraq

If only the media had reported this stuff honestly Obama probably would not have made such errors in judgment. Instead we are left with a situation equivalent to the breakup of Yugoslavia and we should have expected this.
Click to expand...
Assuming your figures are accurate, how could that possibly translate into a population growth of nearly 1/3?
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

It's funny to see so-called liberals, with their feigned moral superiority, longing for the good old days of Saddam Hussein. These croissant-nibbling cosmopolitans contrive an exquisite sensitivity to the supposed plight of every sodomite, atheist, America-hating traitor, endangered insect, and God knows what else, all the while sneering superciliously at all those less evolved Americans who, in their eyes, are gas-guzzling, gun-toting breeders who aren't hip enough to loathe this country.

And yet these effete degenerates are perfectly willing to have sat and done nothing as Hussein continued to have people pushed off roofs, burned alive, shoved into wood chippers alive, beheaded for sport, and their children thrown into filthy dungeons built just for them. The sensitivity of the Birkenstock brigades does not extend to those people. Nearly half a million souls that Hussein's regime murdered have been found in mass graves all over Iraq, and given a few more years, the butchery might have rivaled the killing fields of Cambodia. But American faux liberals would have been quite content to sit and do nothing as the horrors continued.

Another generation very bravely saved this country from the Nazis and the Japanese by killing hundreds of thousands of the bastards. This one has been taught that America's so awful, from slavery to the Trail of Tears to Hiroshima, that it's hardly worth saving. And besides, arms are for hugging, and using violence to keep the U.S. secure is dangerous. It's nothing but Shrub-like cowboying around the world murdering beautiful brown people, and it would neither meet government safety standards nor respect this planet's cultural diversity.

Muslim jihadists could be gleefully making videos of raping and disemboweling the wives of these bloodless limp-wrists as they hacked off the heads of their shrieking children, and they, who would never dream of having a gun, would still be desperately trying to reason with the filthy savages. "Surely we can communicate on a higher plane than this--why, I personally have always admired the Prophet Mohammed! And I validate the pain your inner child has suffered and understand why you're angry that this awful country provoked you and made you feel yucky. But can't we all just--get along?"
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

matchlight said:
It's funny to see so-called liberals, with their feigned moral superiority, longing for the good old days of Saddam Hussein. These croissant-nibbling cosmopolitans contrive an exquisite sensitivity to the supposed plight of every sodomite, atheist, America-hating traitor, endangered insect, and God knows what else, all the while sneering superciliously at all those less evolved Americans who, in their eyes, are gas-guzzling, gun-toting breeders who aren't hip enough to loathe this country.

And yet these effete degenerates are perfectly willing to have sat and done nothing as Hussein continued to have people pushed off roofs, burned alive, shoved into wood chippers alive, beheaded for sport, and their children thrown into filthy dungeons built just for them. The sensitivity of the Birkenstock brigades does not extend to those people. Nearly half a million souls that Hussein's regime murdered have been found in mass graves all over Iraq, and given a few more years, the butchery might have rivaled the killing fields of Cambodia. But American faux liberals would have been quite content to sit and do nothing as the horrors continued.

Another generation very bravely saved this country from the Nazis and the Japanese by killing hundreds of thousands of the bastards. This one has been taught that America's so awful, from slavery to the Trail of Tears to Hiroshima, that it's hardly worth saving. And besides, arms are for hugging, and using violence to keep the U.S. secure is dangerous. It's nothing but Shrub-like cowboying around the world murdering beautiful brown people, and it would neither meet government safety standards nor respect this planet's cultural diversity.

Muslim jihadists could be gleefully making videos of raping and disemboweling the wives of these bloodless limp-wrists as they hacked off the heads of their shrieking children, and they, who would never dream of having a gun, would still be desperately trying to reason with the filthy savages. "Surely we can communicate on a higher plane than this--why, I personally have always admired the Prophet Mohammed! And I validate the pain your inner child has suffered and understand why you're angry that this awful country provoked you and made you feel yucky. But can't we all just--get along?"
Click to expand...

Remember the whole "Bush lied" meme? Remember the YEARS of hate on not just him but republicans and anyone else who supported the war on terror? This was the "moral high ground" they wished to appear to occupy-by surrendering, by appeasing, by opposing the troop surge.

And then a weak Democrat president snatches defeat from the jaws of victory-leaving innocents to the same terrorists we went in to fight-as they systematically kill women (A REAL war on women) and children and destroy millennia of history and culture-liberals sneer over their horn rimmed glasses with weak and impotent replies.

The left is showing its true colors-this is how they do it.
 
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Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

If only those people were armed and could defend themselves... which is why it won't happen here. Unless of course the government is able to convince enough fools that they would be better off helpless.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

matchlight said:
It's funny to see so-called liberals, with their feigned moral superiority, longing for the good old days of Saddam Hussein. These croissant-nibbling cosmopolitans contrive an exquisite sensitivity to the supposed plight of every sodomite, atheist, America-hating traitor, endangered insect, and God knows what else, all the while sneering superciliously at all those less evolved Americans who, in their eyes, are gas-guzzling, gun-toting breeders who aren't hip enough to loathe this country.

And yet these effete degenerates are perfectly willing to have sat and done nothing as Hussein continued to have people pushed off roofs, burned alive, shoved into wood chippers alive, beheaded for sport, and their children thrown into filthy dungeons built just for them. The sensitivity of the Birkenstock brigades does not extend to those people. Nearly half a million souls that Hussein's regime murdered have been found in mass graves all over Iraq, and given a few more years, the butchery might have rivaled the killing fields of Cambodia. But American faux liberals would have been quite content to sit and do nothing as the horrors continued.

Another generation very bravely saved this country from the Nazis and the Japanese by killing hundreds of thousands of the bastards. This one has been taught that America's so awful, from slavery to the Trail of Tears to Hiroshima, that it's hardly worth saving. And besides, arms are for hugging, and using violence to keep the U.S. secure is dangerous. It's nothing but Shrub-like cowboying around the world murdering beautiful brown people, and it would neither meet government safety standards nor respect this planet's cultural diversity.

Muslim jihadists could be gleefully making videos of raping and disemboweling the wives of these bloodless limp-wrists as they hacked off the heads of their shrieking children, and they, who would never dream of having a gun, would still be desperately trying to reason with the filthy savages. "Surely we can communicate on a higher plane than this--why, I personally have always admired the Prophet Mohammed! And I validate the pain your inner child has suffered and understand why you're angry that this awful country provoked you and made you feel yucky. But can't we all just--get along?"
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You seem nice.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

TobyOne said:
He took credit for making the decision to pull the final troops out during his campaign - when he could have negotiated for them to stay as the Bush admin was going to do. The decision to pull the troops out was clearly his. He doesn't have a clue about how the world works. He should go back to organizing bake sales.
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The decision was Malaki's, the Iranian puppet that Bush installed as President. The Iranians wanted the Americans out and Malaki followed their orders. The only way to keep troops there was to overthrow Malaki and start over. Is that what Bush would have done?
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

tech30528 said:
If only those people were armed and could defend themselves... which is why it won't happen here. Unless of course the government is able to convince enough fools that they would be better off helpless.
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ISIS is using tanks, mortars and rocket launchers. Good luck with your pea shooters.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

US Conservative said:
Remember the whole "Bush lied" meme? Remember the YEARS of hate on not just him but republicans and anyone else who supported the war on terror? This was the "moral high ground" they wished to appear to occupy-by surrendering, by appeasing, by opposing the troop surge.

And then a weak Democrat president snatches defeat from the jaws of victory-leaving innocents to the same terrorists we went in to fight-as they systematically kill women (A REAL war on women) and children and destroy millennia of history and culture-liberals sneer over their horn rimmed glasses with weak and impotent replies.

The left is showing its true colors-this is how they do it.
Click to expand...

The situation in Iraq is a DIRECT consequence of Bush's doomed invasion. Supporting a corrupt and partisan Govt. in their goal of subjugating minorities would have only made the situation worse. Actions have consequences, something the Right fails to consider time and time again. Invading Iraq without a plan for the peace was the worst foreign policy decision since Vietnam and it's time for the right to admit it.
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

iguanaman said:
ISIS is using tanks, mortars and rocket launchers. Good luck with your pea shooters.
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bf94477565ddc113668ffe160158ce06d6c31250.jpg

Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga fighters take position on a tank on the front line in Khazer, near the Kurdish checkpoint of Aski kalak, 40km West of Arbil, the capital of the autonomous Kurdish region of northern Iraq, on August 8, 2014

Iraqi forces ready for US-backed counter-offensive
 
Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

iguanaman said:
The situation in Iraq is a DIRECT consequence of Bush's doomed invasion. Supporting a corrupt and partisan Govt. in their goal of subjugating minorities would have only made the situation worse. Actions have consequences, something the Right fails to consider time and time again. Invading Iraq without a plan for the peace was the worst foreign policy decision since Vietnam and it's time for the right to admit it.
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ISIS is in Iraq because a weak liberal allowed them to be. It happened on his watch, as a direct consequence of his policies.
Everyone but the left knows this.
 
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