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Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

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Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

A Satanist group is using the Hobby Lobby ruling to campaign for a religious exemption to anti-choice abortion laws.

The Satanic Temple (TST) is a religious group that "believes that the body is inviolable **subject to one’s own will alone" and encourages making personal health decisions "based on the best scientific understanding of the world, regardless of the religious or political beliefs of others.” The group launched a campaign Monday on behalf of a woman's right to accurate medical information and cited the Hobby Lobby ruling as bolstering this position.

Hobby Lobby, a Christian-owned arts and crafts store based in Oklahoma, filed a lawsuit in 2012 due to a stipulation in President Obama's Affordable Care Act which required employer-provided health insurance to cover contraceptives. Hobby Lobby disagreed with this on the basis that certain contraceptives could be abortive and argued the law violates religious freedom. In June, the Supreme Court ruled that some closely held, for-profit corporations could be exempt from providing contraception coverage to employees on the basis of religious beliefs.

...

Informed consent bills **requiring abortion providers to give their patients official “informational” material regarding the procedure **have been criticized in the past for providing biased and false information to women in a bald effort at dissuading them from abortions. Such materials have included claims of a link between abortion and breast cancer, as well as claims regarding a depressive “post*abortion syndrome”, both of which The Satanic Temple view as “scientifically unfounded” and “medically invalid” and therefore an affront to their religious beliefs.

Currently, 35 states require that women receive "informational" abortion counseling before terminating a pregnancy. This can include written materials with statements about the fetus's ability to feel pain, erroneous links between abortion and increased breast cancer risks and supposed psychological responses to abortion.
TST considers this misleading and believes the Hobby Lobby ruling bolsters the temple's goal for religious exemption.

“While we feel we have a strong case for an exemption regardless of the Hobby Lobby ruling, the Supreme Court has decided that religious beliefs are so sacrosanct that they can even trump scientific fact," TST spokesperson Lucien Greaves said in a press release. "This was made clear when they allowed Hobby Lobby to claim certain contraceptives were abortifacients, when in fact they are not. Because of the respect the Court has given to religious beliefs, and the fact that our our beliefs are based on best available knowledge, we expect that our belief in the illegitimacy of state* mandated ‘informational’ material is enough to exempt us, and those who hold our beliefs, from having to receive them.”
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Bold added by me

The bold outlines the crux of the suit. Basically the satanic church sees it as an affront when court decisions are made by scientifically unfounded views, which happened by the SCOTUS decision. So their argument is if religion is so sacred that it can be held to a higher standard than actual reality (science), then they seek a ruling as their church believes that science is the supreme font of knowledge.

Its an interesting twist on the SCOTUS decision and I am of two minds. While I would love for there to be fewer regulations that are only there to get around Roe versus Wade, which causes harm to women. I also think the SCOTUS ruling is dangerous at its core for our society and really, we shouldn't be using it to even further positive interests.

On the other hand, between this and the Baphomet statue in Oklahoma, these guys are superb trolls and they are just plain fun to watch people use pro-religious laws for their full extent, hopefully to educate those people who can't understand the first amendment. Its amusing, but still, its sad that the recent SCOTUS decision is creating these kinds of situations and it would have been better if they had ruled another way.
 
It often seems that those in the comfortable majority religious position simply equate the general idea of religion with their specific religious ideas. Whether they think that others simply don't exist or don't speak up, I don't know, but they don't seem to see this kind of thing coming. We critics of religion and any member of a minority religion obviously see these sorts of things immediately. The Hobby Lobby ruling involved five Catholic men who didn't seem to realize that other religions besides their own would be able to use that ruling the same way they could.
 
LowDown said:
I'm all in favor of Satanists getting abortions. I say let them have the exemption.

In practice, though, they are probably going to find out that it's harder to get an exemption than they might have imagined.
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Why Satanists and not Christian women? A lot of protestant and catholic women get abortions.
 
Science has nothing to say about the morality/immorality of abortion so I don't know what their point is.
 
TobyOne said:
Science has nothing to say about the morality/immorality of abortion so I don't know what their point is.
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Sure it does. It can study outcomes and see if the results of abortion are happier, healthier, and wealthier women and families. As it turns out, legal abortion does that. And what better measure of morality than the creation of good for lots of people?

I don't know why people claim that science can't tell us good and evil, or right and wrong. Of course it can. Science is just the study of reality, of facts. Actions and choices create results. Those are facts that can be studied and examined. I don't see why this confuses people.
 
Science can tell us facts but it can't assign value to the facts. In your example, you're assigning a higher value of "happier (whatever that means), healthier and wealthier" as greater than the value of the life that was ended. Its your interpretation of the facts, not science's thats making that judgement.

In their statement the satanists say they value science over religion, but I don't see a tie in to their objection to receving materials that may inform their decision. Its a self-defeating argument and nothing more than a publicity stunt.


Paschendale said:
Sure it does. It can study outcomes and see if the results of abortion are happier, healthier, and wealthier women and families. As it turns out, legal abortion does that. And what better measure of morality than the creation of good for lots of people?

I don't know why people claim that science can't tell us good and evil, or right and wrong. Of course it can. Science is just the study of reality, of facts. Actions and choices create results. Those are facts that can be studied and examined. I don't see why this confuses people.
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TobyOne said:
Science can tell us facts but it can't assign value to the facts. In your example, you're assigning a higher value of "happier (whatever that means), healthier and wealthier" as greater than the value of the life that was ended. Its your interpretation of the facts, not science's thats making that judgement.

In their statement the satanists say they value science over religion, but I don't see a tie in to their objection to receving materials that may inform their decision. Its a self-defeating argument and nothing more than a publicity stunt.
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Science is the systematic search for truth using observations and experimentation, with that definition it most certainly can say something about the ETHICALITY (morals are from the individual, we need to focus on the society, stick with ethics which is morals but for a society in a short sense).

Through observation and experimentation science can lead to the general view of abortion as to whether or not it may be ethical.

People seem to confuse science with some sort of mystical back to the future lazer mad stuff, it's really just a search for the truth with empirical data, that truth is not limited to ANYTHING.

That can assign some value to facts, although that is very subjective so you don't have to agree with anyone there but I think it can.
 
That seems to be what the satanists are saying.


Luftwaffe said:
Science is the systematic search for truth using observations and experimentation, with that definition it most certainly can say something about the ETHICALITY (morals are from the individual, we need to focus on the society, stick with ethics which is morals but for a society in a short sense).

Through observation and experimentation science can lead to the general view of abortion as to whether or not it may be ethical.

People seem to confuse science with some sort of mystical back to the future lazer mad stuff, it's really just a search for the truth with empirical data, that truth is not limited to ANYTHING.

That can assign some value to facts, although that is very subjective so you don't have to agree with anyone there but I think it can.
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TobyOne said:
That seems to be what the satanists are saying.
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bro-do-you-even-science.jpg
 
Luftwaffe said:
Science is the systematic search for truth using observations and experimentation, with that definition it most certainly can say something about the ETHICALITY (morals are from the individual, we need to focus on the society, stick with ethics which is morals but for a society in a short sense).

Through observation and experimentation science can lead to the general view of abortion as to whether or not it may be ethical.

People seem to confuse science with some sort of mystical back to the future lazer mad stuff, it's really just a search for the truth with empirical data, that truth is not limited to ANYTHING.

That can assign some value to facts, although that is very subjective so you don't have to agree with anyone there but I think it can.
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Science does not assign moral value to facts. You do. Science can create an atomic bomb, for example. We decide whether its use is moral or not and under what circumstances.
 
Fletch said:
Science does not assign moral value to facts. You do. Science can create an atomic bomb, for example. We decide whether its use is moral or not and under what circumstances.
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Actually, science is a method of discovery. generally, its engineers who create things out of the knowledge gained from science.
 
tacomancer said:
Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws



Bold added by me

The bold outlines the crux of the suit. Basically the satanic church sees it as an affront when court decisions are made by scientifically unfounded views, which happened by the SCOTUS decision. So their argument is if religion is so sacred that it can be held to a higher standard than actual reality (science), then they seek a ruling as their church believes that science is the supreme font of knowledge.

Its an interesting twist on the SCOTUS decision and I am of two minds. While I would love for there to be fewer regulations that are only there to get around Roe versus Wade, which causes harm to women. I also think the SCOTUS ruling is dangerous at its core for our society and really, we shouldn't be using it to even further positive interests.

On the other hand, between this and the Baphomet statue in Oklahoma, these guys are superb trolls and they are just plain fun to watch people use pro-religious laws for their full extent, hopefully to educate those people who can't understand the first amendment. Its amusing, but still, its sad that the recent SCOTUS decision is creating these kinds of situations and it would have been better if they had ruled another way.
Click to expand...
This has a similar strain of thought as the Satanic sculpture in Oklahoma City. IE Becareful what you wish for.
 
tacomancer said:
Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws



Bold added by me

The bold outlines the crux of the suit. Basically the satanic church sees it as an affront when court decisions are made by scientifically unfounded views, which happened by the SCOTUS decision. So their argument is if religion is so sacred that it can be held to a higher standard than actual reality (science), then they seek a ruling as their church believes that science is the supreme font of knowledge.

Its an interesting twist on the SCOTUS decision and I am of two minds. While I would love for there to be fewer regulations that are only there to get around Roe versus Wade, which causes harm to women. I also think the SCOTUS ruling is dangerous at its core for our society and really, we shouldn't be using it to even further positive interests.

On the other hand, between this and the Baphomet statue in Oklahoma, these guys are superb trolls and they are just plain fun to watch people use pro-religious laws for their full extent, hopefully to educate those people who can't understand the first amendment. Its amusing, but still, its sad that the recent SCOTUS decision is creating these kinds of situations and it would have been better if they had ruled another way.
Click to expand...
I wonder can this also be used by abortion providers in states where the "requirements" for the clinics have become ridiculous? I mean couldn't they say that their religious choices mean that they don't have to consider those regulations? Hobby Lobby decision opened a can of worms, I'm looking forward to Satanists and Pastafarians trying to bring this foolishness to light in many other ways.
 
Summerwind said:
I wonder can this also be used by abortion providers in states where the "requirements" for the clinics have become ridiculous? I mean couldn't they say that their religious choices mean that they don't have to consider those regulations? Hobby Lobby decision opened a can of worms, I'm looking forward to Satanists and Pastafarians trying to bring this foolishness to light in many other ways.
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Honestly I hope they do. The scotus ****ed up but there's no fixing that so use it for good where you can
 
Fletch said:
Science does not assign moral value to facts. You do. Science can create an atomic bomb, for example. We decide whether its use is moral or not and under what circumstances.
Click to expand...

"morals" "we"

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

People keep equivocating morals with ethics and it's starting to piss me off.

Morals = individual

Ethics = society

Science can most certainly determine the perceived ethical view of a certain matter. CERTAINLY, nothing will ever determine morals except yourself.
 
Bah, hobby lobby failing shouldn't mean much, smart companies will cover it anyway, last thing you want to do is potentially piss off half of your work force anyway...

:shoot Religious "freedom" for this case :blastem:
 
To hell with these Satanists--let them go back to polishing the Devil's tail. According to the rule the Supreme Court reiterated in Hobby Lobby, a court could not inquire into whether their beliefs on this subject were plausible or reasonable. But the court could determine if these beliefs were sincere--whether they reflected an honest conviction. And the Satanists would have a devil of a time convincing an American court of that. God would never allow it.
 
matchlight said:
To hell with these Satanists--let them go back to polishing the Devil's tail. According to the rule the Supreme Court reiterated in Hobby Lobby, a court could not inquire into whether their beliefs on this subject were plausible or reasonable. But the court could determine if these beliefs were sincere--whether they reflected an honest conviction. And the Satanists would have a devil of a time convincing an American court of that. God would never allow it.
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The courts would have a real hard time with that. There are a number of ways the courts could rule against the Satanists in this, most simply in that the state does have a legitimate interest in regulating abortion and that the laws in place are the least obtrusive ways to achieve that interest, but arguing that the Satanists are insincere about something that fits in exactly with their belief system is probably not one of those ways.
 
This has got to be the stupidist law suit ever.
 
apdst said:
This has got to be the stupidist law suit ever.
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Well, no. It actually, assuming it got that far, force SCOTUS to further clarify a murky decision. SCOTUS did bring this on themselves by stating in the original decision that it was quite narrow, then clarifying the next week that it wasn't so narrow, then issued another ruling which contradicted part of the Hobby Lobby ruling. Right now, no one knows for sure just how things really are.

And in an era where congress is thinking of suing the president for doing the same things every other president has done, this is not even close to the stupidest.
 
Luftwaffe said:
"morals" "we"

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

People keep equivocating morals with ethics and it's starting to piss me off.

Morals = individual

Ethics = society

Science can most certainly determine the perceived ethical view of a certain matter. CERTAINLY, nothing will ever determine morals except yourself.
Click to expand...
Give me a couple of examples
 
Fletch said:
Give me a couple of examples
Click to expand...

#1 Gather a huge amount of people

#2 Show them and discuss about abortion, absolutely no bias allowed, only discuss the procedure and state of the fetus

#3 Ask people afterwards their view on abortion in terms of their morals

#4 Record data from the experiment

#5 Publish data which then can point to whether or not abortion may be seen as ethical or not.

^ Basically the scientific method but I left the hypothesis part out.
 
Removable Mind said:
Why Satanists and not Christian women? A lot of protestant and catholic women get abortions.
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As Margaret Sanger wrote, planned parenthood, birth control and abortion as it were, is all about getting undesirable people to eliminate themselves from the gene pool.
 
LowDown said:
As Margaret Sanger wrote, planned parenthood, birth control and abortion as it were, is all about getting undesirable people to eliminate themselves from the gene pool.
Click to expand...

Really? Interesting. So what's this have to do with the price of tea in China?
 
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