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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Excon said:
Dodge?
You are confused.
You clearly did not understand what was being spoken to, which is why I told you such.


And?
That was not what I addressed. So that is your failure.
So again. Why don't you at least try to learn what my position on this case is before you again open your moth and insert your foot.


I do not have to disprove your claim, especially as you did not understand what was being spoken to. That is on you.
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It is exactly what I addressed... You have no argument and are just deflecting at this point.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Simon W. Moon said:
Why you think that changes anything about how the world is.
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Are you confused?
As it is, it works both ways. Either argument can be made and fly, to a review Bord, a Jury, etc...

But as an Officer has training as to when, and when not to use deadly force, they should be held to a higher standard than a civilian, or in other words, a civilian held to a lower standard.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Black Dog said:
It is exactly what I addressed... You have no argument and are just deflecting at this point.
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Get a grip.

No it isn't.
You addressed something entirely different than to what I spoke to.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
Riiiiight, sell that to someone who buys it. You judge Obama and others all the time. Yes, God Bless America, now don't hit your head getting off your soapbox.
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Yep...even after putting myself in his shoes. In fact...I frequently even state that (for example the decision to trade known terrorists for a suspected traitor) it is a tough call to make. Hell...I openly support his drone use. There are a few things he does OK...some he hasnt managed to completely **** up, but most...well...its what I expected from an underqualified failed community organizer that was elected solely because of his race.

Dragging Obama into this doesnt change who and what you are.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

VanceMack said:
Dont you think thats a bit bassackwards giving cops leeway you wouldnt give a civilian?
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Would you be a cop if you could go to prison and lose all of your stuff for accidentally arresting the wrong guy?
Neither would I. Nor would hardly a soul.
Cops need that protection. As long as they are performing their duties in good faith and according the manner they should, they cannot face criminal charges for false imprisonment, nor assault/battery charge for forcefully restraining suspects, etc.

If they had the same liabilities as citizens, cops would be going to prison and being sued left and right every time they made an arrest that didn't lead to a conviction

Honestly, I cannot imagine why you would think that cops do not need this protection.
It's startling really.

VanceMack said:
And the Tennessee case is merely one case where law enforcement personnel have shot fleeing unarmed suspects. Pittsburgh, Albuquerque...lots of others. Relevant point still in play. Cops are intervening.
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And as noted the rules for such engagements would have precluded Greer from shooting Miller if Greer was a cop.
TNvG proposes a two part test for when it is constitutionally okay for a cop to shoot a fleeing suspect.
Failing either part of the test means that the case "does not justify the use of deadly force"
Greer's situation fails both parts of the test.
So if Greer had been a cop, the shooting still would have been illegal.

VanceMack said:
Similar recent case in Chicago involving an 86 year old shooting at a fleeing (armed) suspect. He wont be charged as it is determined he was "an 86-year-old law-abiding individual who comes across a forcible felony in progress … and helped others avoid being victims." Same goes with this 80 year old shooter.
86-year-old won't be charged in concealed carry shooting, prosecutors say - Chicago Tribune
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Fleeing is a felony in progress?

Eliminating current, existing danger with deadly force as needed = GOOD JOB! YAY!
Eliminating hypothetical threat at some future point in time = murder. Boo!

It's that simple. It really is.

Stopping a felony in progress is what Greer did when he first started shooting at the crooks while they were in his house.
YAY! GO GREER! GOOD JOB!
We all cheer him for this.
Perfectly legal and ethical.

When Greer shot Miller, the felony had been stopped. There was no existing danger which had to be stopped by killing Miller.


The differences between these scenarios that are offered for comparison and Greer's situation seem readily obvious.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

VanceMack said:
Yep...even after putting myself in his shoes. In fact...I frequently even state that (for example the decision to trade known terrorists for a suspected traitor) it is a tough call to make. Hell...I openly support his drone use. There are a few things he does OK...some he hasnt managed to completely **** up, but most...well...its what I expected from an underqualified failed community organizer that was elected solely because of his race.

Dragging Obama into this doesnt change who and what you are.
Click to expand...

The fact is YOU judged him. So get off your soapboax telling other people not to judge hypocrite.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Black Dog said:
I was, thanks.

He is a murderer. He shot a woman in the back who was running away. You seem to feel theft and assault are enough to execute someone. Last time I looked they are not forcible felonies in any state in the union. You would probably be much happier living in Somalia or an Islamic state.
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You may want to look into elder abuse charges before you tell me what is and isn't a felony.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CA penal code regarding homicide has been cited upthread.

Can anyone make a case in Greer's favor out of that?

The only case presented on Greer's behalf so far is, "My feelings are that he ought not be charged."
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
You may want to look into elder abuse charges before you tell me what is and isn't a felony.
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Actually you might want to do that...

Elder abuse is any abuse and neglect of persons age 60 and older by a caregiver or another person in a relationship involving an expectation of trust.

Does not apply. :roll:

PS I said forcible felony. You may want to look that up as well.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Black Dog said:
Actually you might want to do that...

Elder abuse is any abuse and neglect of persons age 60 and older by a caregiver or another person in a relationship involving an expectation of trust.

Does not apply. :roll:

PS I said forcible felony. You may want to look that up as well.
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Beating up an old person is abuse of an elderly person, you don't need to be in a relationship. Keep defending the scum criminal that he shot.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Simon W. Moon said:
The only case presented on Greer's behalf so far is, "My feelings are that he ought not be charged."
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I think another position that was posted was that the Prosecutor may not believe he/she could get a conviction for the specifics of this case, and therefore, may not charge.
 
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Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
I kick in your door, grab your child when you look like you have a defensive weapon. I put a gun to her head. Tell you to start emptying your wallet, safe, and for kicks tell your pretty wife to undress. But in the mean time you see an opening, you have a weapon, a clear shot and the skills to take it.
Your kid drops to the ground like she should have been taught, and you what? Offer coffee and cookies? Or drop the scum wear he is standing.
Or do you say, "I don't want to be a murderer" so you tell momma to disrobe like he says and clean our your safe and lay it at his feet like a good little victim.
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Do you not understand the glaring differences between the scenario you presented here and Greer's situation in the alley?

If you think that these two scenarios are essentially the same in re to self-defense and the use of deadly force, well there's your problem.
That's why you think everyone is saying something entirely different than what they are actually saying.

So, seriously, do you understand why the hypothetical scenario you presented is fundamentally different than Greer's situation?

What about you, Vancemack?
Can you tell why the two situations are fundamentally different?

Can you both tell how the situation of 86 yr old who acted to stop an armed robbery in progress is fundamentally different from Greer's situation?

If you guys are lumping these very different situations where an immediate threat is neutralized through deadly force with a situation where deadly force was used in the absence of an immediate threat, that explains why you are having trouble understanding the objections to Greer's behavior.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Simon W. Moon said:
Do you not understand the glaring differences between the scenario you presented here and Greer's situation in the alley?

If you think that these two scenarios are essentially the same in re to self-defense and the use of deadly force, well there's your problem.
That's why you think everyone is saying something entirely different than what they are actually saying.

So, seriously, do you understand why the hypothetical scenario you presented is fundamentally different than Greer's situation?

What about you, Vancemack?
Can you tell why the two situations are fundamentally different?

Can you both tell how the situation of 86 yr old who acted to stop an armed robbery in progress is fundamentally different from Greer's situation?

If you guys are lumping these very different situations where an immediate threat is neutralized through deadly force with a situation where deadly force was used in the absence of an immediate threat, that explains why you are having trouble understanding the objections to Greer's behavior.
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No, its the same. Be a victim and do nothing about it. That's what it sizes up to.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
Beating up an old person is abuse of an elderly person, you don't need to be in a relationship. Keep defending the scum criminal that he shot.
Click to expand...

Nice hyperbole. I am not defending the thieves, I am condemning his unlawful actions.

You said "You may want to look into elder abuse charges before you tell me what is and isn't a felony." Sorry but moving the goal posts because you have no clue what you are talking about is not going to work.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Simon W. Moon said:
Would you be a cop if you could go to prison and lose all of your stuff for accidentally arresting the wrong guy?
Neither would I. Nor would hardly a soul.
Cops need that protection. As long as they are performing their duties in good faith and according the manner they should, they cannot face criminal charges for false imprisonment, nor assault/battery charge for forcefully restraining suspects, etc.

If they had the same liabilities as citizens, cops would be going to prison and being sued left and right every time they made an arrest that didn't lead to a conviction

Honestly, I cannot imagine why you would think that cops do not need this protection.
It's startling really.

And as noted the rules for such engagements would have precluded Greer from shooting Miller if Greer was a cop.
TNvG proposes a two part test for when it is constitutionally okay for a cop to shoot a fleeing suspect.
Failing either part of the test means that the case "does not justify the use of deadly force"
Greer's situation fails both parts of the test.
So if Greer had been a cop, the shooting still would have been illegal.


Fleeing is a felony in progress?

Eliminating current, existing danger with deadly force as needed = GOOD JOB! YAY!
Eliminating hypothetical threat at some future point in time = murder. Boo!

It's that simple. It really is.

Stopping a felony in progress is what Greer did when he first started shooting at the crooks while they were in his house.
YAY! GO GREER! GOOD JOB!
We all cheer him for this.
Perfectly legal and ethical.

When Greer shot Miller, the felony had been stopped. There was no existing danger which had to be stopped by killing Miller.


The differences between these scenarios that are offered for comparison and Greer's situation seem readily obvious.
Click to expand...
FL cops fired 377 rounds at unarmed men in deafening barrage that killed suspect, friend

Cuz...why hold cops to a higher standard then an 80 year old man that got jumped and beaten in his own home....
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Simon W. Moon said:
Do you not understand the glaring differences between the scenario you presented here and Greer's situation in the alley?

If you think that these two scenarios are essentially the same in re to self-defense and the use of deadly force, well there's your problem.
That's why you think everyone is saying something entirely different than what they are actually saying.

So, seriously, do you understand why the hypothetical scenario you presented is fundamentally different than Greer's situation?

What about you, Vancemack?
Can you tell why the two situations are fundamentally different?

Can you both tell how the situation of 86 yr old who acted to stop an armed robbery in progress is fundamentally different from Greer's situation?

If you guys are lumping these very different situations where an immediate threat is neutralized through deadly force with a situation where deadly force was used in the absence of an immediate threat, that explains why you are having trouble understanding the objections to Greer's behavior.
Click to expand...
86 year old shot at a man felling the scene of a crime. 80 year old man shot a thug that had a history of perpetrating violent criminal acts against the elderly and would very likely have continued to perpetrate violent criminal acts. The perpetrator had just joined her thug in beating the **** out of an 80 year old man and throwing him to the ground breaking his collar bone.

Frankly...no...I dont see much of a difference, except that the 80 year old actually has prevented future crimes from 2 assailants and a 3rd co-conspirator.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
The fact is YOU judged him. So get off your soapboax telling other people not to judge hypocrite.
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I did...true...but I at least have the decency to try to put myself in his situation to gain perspective. You...you cant be bothered and have admitted as much.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

VanceMack said:
I did...true...but I at least have the decency to try to put myself in his situation to gain perspective. You...you cant be bothered and have admitted as much.
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Yea I agree with this. I can't put myself in his position because I literally know nothing about the guy other than the story and video. Going by those things, the only conclusion I can come to is he broke the law.

Fortunately for him, I am not the DA, lol. Because they may let him off for reasons I don't know about. As long as they follow the process and law, I am good with whatever decision they make.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

VanceMack said:
I did...true...but I at least have the decency to try to put myself in his situation to gain perspective. You...you cant be bothered and have admitted as much.
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Sorry but you don't have a clue what my thought process was on this matter, so again go try to sell someone else on your soapbox. noone is buying it. And no, when you have judged politicians and other people you have not "written" your thought processes here either. More soapbox rhetoric from you that will be ignored.

I love your backpeddling from "how dare you judge him" to "Well I do judge but.....<insert backpeddling here>." Hope you didn't hit your head getting knocked off your soapbox there.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Black Dog said:
From your link...

Those accused of violating California elder abuse laws are typically either family members of ... or caregivers for ... the alleged elderly victim.
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Do I need to explain what "typically" means.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
Sorry but you don't have a clue what my thought process was on this matter, so again go try to sell someone else on your soapbox. noone is buying it. And no, when you have judged politicians and other people you have not "written" your thought processes here either. More soapbox rhetoric from you that will be ignored.

I love your backpeddling from "how dare you judge him" to "Well I do judge but.....<insert backpeddling here>." Hope you didn't hit your head getting knocked off your soapbox there.
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You obviously have never read the NUMEROUS times I have done just that...but thats OK...believe it...dont...I couldnt give half a **** about your opinion.

ALL I have said is judge him with perspective. You dont have the integrity and decency to do even that. You actually operate under the ridiculous pretense that if you were in that situation and not under the safety and shelter of a keyboard and monitor you would have handled it differently. And to be fair...I think you would have handled it differently as well. I think you are one of those guys that would end up in a fetal position with wet britches waiting for your turn to die hoping someone else would come along and save you, even if your life (or the life of others you care about) were at risk.

But again...thats just an opinion.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
Do I need to explain what "typically" means.
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No. And it still has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to what this person did. It is NOT A FORCIBLE FELONY. Again, you might want to look that up.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

VanceMack said:
You obviously have never read the NUMEROUS times I have done just that...but thats OK...believe it...dont...I couldnt give half a **** about your opinion.

ALL I have said is judge him with perspective. You dont have the integrity and decency to do even that. You actually operate under the ridiculous pretense that if you were in that situation and not under the safety and shelter of a keyboard and monitor you would have handled it differently. And to be fair...I think you would have handled it differently as well. I think you are one of those guys that would end up in a fetal position with wet britches waiting for your turn to die hoping someone else would come along and save you, even if your life (or the life of others you care about) were at risk.

But again...thats just an opinion.
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Well it's a good thing your "opinion" means jack ****. I love how you say you "judge with perspective" and then spout off your rhetoric about me when you don't know me, my views, or my personal life.

You just proved my point about how you judge, thank you. So go find another soapbox since you got knocked off this one.
 
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