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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

So what. She just died more tired.

So she was no longer a threat to him, and his shooting her was not justified.

So, if I walk up and clean your clock. OR that of your 80 year old parent or grand parent. You will just let me walk away.

If you hit me, I pull a gun, and you run for your life, yes, I'll let you run away. I'll call the cops and hope you get arrested, but I won't kill you, because that's murder.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I disagree. It is not revenge it is about other factors including getting your property back and making sure he never attacks you again. Besides, for all you know the guy who just attacked you in your house and appears to be running away might very well turn the corner and run into your kids room. Shoot the ****er. HE made that decision the moment he attacked/robbed you in the first place.

I disagree. There needs to be an imminent threat to justify the use of deadly force.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Perhaps that has been found to be too large of a loophole.
We should carefully consider the full impact of changing legal theories which have been around for centuries.
Not all of our traditions got to be the way they are by arbitrary accident--legal traditions in particular have had a great deal of thought and discussion put into them.

Making it okay to shoot someone who is not an imminent threat would make it substantially easier to literally get away with murder.
Might not be best to let that happen based on a corner case such as Mr. Greer's.

A do agree that it opens it up to too many loopholes. I was really stating my wish more than it's effectiveness...
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I disagree. There needs to be an imminent threat to justify the use of deadly force.

I see an imminent threat the minute you are attacked and every minute the criminal is around you. Don't chase the guy to shoot him unless he is still in your house and don't take out a sniper rifle and shoot him a half a mile away. Other than that his ass is grass...
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber


You did read down far enough to see this, right?

Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I see an imminent threat the minute you are attacked and every minute the criminal is around you. Don't chase the guy to shoot him unless he is still in your house and don't take out a sniper rifle and shoot him a half a mile away. Other than that his ass is grass...

But this is exactly what the guy did. The woman he shot had already fled his house, and he shot her in the alleyway outside.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber


from your own cite

U.S. Law
Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."


Have you looked at California's penal code in regard to what is a justifiable homicide?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

But this is exactly what the guy did. The woman he shot had already fled his house, and he shot her in the alleyway outside.

In this case the guy might be guilty... I was just commenting over all.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

from your own cite

U.S. Law
Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."


Have you looked at California's penal code in regard to what is a justifiable homicide?
Its all I could find in a short time, but it shows that shooting a fleeing felon is allowed in some cases and I think he has a defense. IF he is charged, which I doubt he will be.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

But this is exactly what the guy did. The woman he shot had already fled his house, and he shot her in the alleyway outside.

Not to many people shedding too many tears about it.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Not to many people shedding too many tears about it.

Even if it's true, is this supposed to make it okay? She wasn't liked so it's okay to murder her?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Its all I could find in a short time, but it shows that shooting a fleeing felon is allowed in some cases and I think he has a defense. IF he is charged, which I doubt he will be.


This watery gray area is reason for me to think twice before killing someone. If possible court time and possible imprisonment doesn't hurt your family then by all means go for it. But for me I have too many responsibilities to take this lightly. My family already had a family member kill someone and it will affect subsequent family generations.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Its all I could find in a short time...

May be this will help

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE TITLE 8. OF CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON CHAPTER 1. HOMICIDE SECTION 187-199
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199



CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE TITLE 8. OF CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON CHAPTER 1. HOMICIDE SECTION 187-199
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199
What circumstances make the homicide justifiable?

Which of these things apply to Greer's actions?
195. Homicide is excusable in the following cases:
1. When committed by accident and misfortune, or in doing any other lawful act by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent.
2. When committed by accident and misfortune, in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, when no undue advantage is taken, nor any dangerous weapon used, and when the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

Greer reports that he acted intentionally. Greer did not act out of accident or misfortune.
So this section does not apply to Greer.

196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest.

Greer is not a public officer nor was acting by the command of a public officer.
So this section does not apply to Greer.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,


The Miller was pleading for her life when she was shot. So Greer was not resisting any of these attempts when he pulled the trigger.
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,

Miller was outside in the alley. She was intending and endeavoring to flee--not commit a felony. Yes, I realize that she had just committed a felony. But when she was shot she was not intending or endeavoring to commit a felony. As such Greer was no long defending himself and his when he killed Miller. Miller was not an imminent threat to Greer, Greer's family, or Greer's demesne--she was actively trying to leave the premises.
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in awfully keeping and preserving the peace.

Greer was not attempting to apprehend Miller. He was trying to kill her.

198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone.

Even if Greer was afraid that Miller was about to do him or his harm [though Greer has not indicated this] it would be insufficient to justify the homicide because a reasonable person must also view the woman pleading for her life at gun point as an imminent threat.

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.

Greer shot Miller in the alley, not in Greer's house. So this one doesn't apply to Greer either.


What about Greer shooting Miller makes it a justifiable homicide?
It doesn't seem that any of these apply to Greer's situation imho.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Even if it's true, is this supposed to make it okay? She wasn't liked so it's okay to murder her?

She went beyond "not liked" she was a vicious criminal that had no regard for the safety and well being of a elderly person. She beat and battered him, broke bones.
And you people think she should have been free to just walk away from it. That is what is wrong in this country, the scum are given all the concessions and the victims are screwed.
Time to change that.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

At the very least the old man should be charged, tried, and then let the jury decide on his fate.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

And you people think she should have been free to just walk away from it.
LOL


Thinking that someone should be held accountable for what appears to be murder is thinking that criminals should be free to walk?

That's a novel take on the matter, imho.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

LOL


Thinking that someone should be held accountable for what appears to be murder is thinking that criminals should be free to walk?

That's a novel take on the matter, imho.
Held accountable? How, he was beaten. He had a right to stop his attackers from getting away.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

At the very least the old man should be charged, tried, and then let the jury decide on his fate.

He should be brought to the steps of City Hall and given a medal.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Held accountable? How, he was beaten. He had a right to stop his attackers from getting away.

It's called excessive force. Much like an officer is just not allowed to gun down someone after they are no longer a threat.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

He should be brought to the steps of City Hall and given a medal.

Well the good news is THAT isn't going to happen. It's much more likely my scenario will. I'm ok with letting a jury decide.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Well the good news is THAT isn't going to happen. It's much more likely my scenario will. I'm ok with letting a jury decide.
Juries are stupid people that have time to kill on their hands. I was just called for one, and I would not want my fate decided by people that have no concept of the law.
Heck the Judge for our day just got suspended for smacking around a lawyer in the courthouse.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

It's called excessive force. Much like an officer is just not allowed to gun down someone after they are no longer a threat.

You are ignoring the mitigating circumstance of his age and mindset immediately after fighting for his life against two people much younger than he.
So find me an 80 year old cop. Then we can talk about it being "much like an officer".
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Juries are stupid people that have time to kill on their hands. I was just called for one, and I would not want my fate decided by people that have no concept of the law.
Heck the Judge for our day just got suspended for smacking around a lawyer in the courthouse.

I don't think you see the humor in what you just wrote.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I don't think you see the humor in what you just wrote.

You find it humorous that many people, like myself, have no faith in the judicial system.
 
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